HL Deb 08 December 1981 vol 425 cc1255-7
Lord Stanley of Alderley

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what action they will take to alert the public to the danger of cartridge type powder fire extinguishers which have a high rate of operational failure particularly on agricultural machines and whether they will prohibit the supply of these extinguishers under the Consumer Safety Act 1978.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Belstead)

My Lords, while the Government are aware of some instances in which the performance of particular cartridge type powder fire extinguishers has proved inadequate, no evidence has been brought to their attention which would appear to warrant alerting the public generally on grounds of personal safety, or depriving them of the use of these extinguishers by prohibiting their supply under the Consumer Safety Act 1978. The Government do not consider that a case has been made out for forbidding their use on farms or in other workplaces under the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974.

Lord Stanley of Alderley

My Lords, may I thank my noble friend for that reply, and ask him whether he would do all in his power to alert the public to the unreliability, particularly of the cartridge type fire extinguishers, especially on agricultural vehicles? Bearing this in mind, I wonder whether my noble friend would agree that, perhaps, we would all be a lot better off if we reverted to sand and water and a bucket and spade?

Lord Belstead

My Lords, my noble friend asks whether the Government will alert the public to the different merits of the cartridge type extinguishers and other extinguishers on agricultural vehicles. The Home Office has conveyed advice to the National Farmers' Union and I believe that this advice has been passed on to NFU members. In essence, the advice was that dry powder extinguishers of the stored pressure type are better suited than those of the cartridge type for use out of doors and for use on farm vehicles. That, I think, exactly follows the concern which is being expressed by my noble friend.

Baroness Trumpington

My Lords, bearing in mind that most domestic accidents happen in the kitchen, could my noble friend tell me how the housewife can test whether or not her fire extinguisher is working?

Lord Belstead

My Lords, I would advise my noble friend: use extinguishers manufactured to the appropriate British Standard; use extinguishers which are regularly serviced and, if you are going to use out-of-doors or on a vehicle, again use powder extinguishers of the stored pressure type, instead of the cartridge type.

Viscount Hanworth

My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord—

Lord Winstanley

My Lords, does the noble Lord the Minister agree that, while it is highly undesirable that agricultural workers should be burned, it is equally undesirable that ordinary citizens should be burned? Does he agree that fire officers locally have an obligation to advise the public about fire precautions and fire prevention, and is he aware that when individual citizens seek advice about which fire extinguishers to install the advice they receive is ambiguous and often varies from fire station to fire station? In view of the importance of the issue raised by the noble Lord, Lord Stanley of Alderley, can the Home Office now issue a definitive, clear and unambiguous statement so that we all know where we stand on this important matter?

Lord Belstead

My Lords, we are talking about extinguishers and not about fire precautions generally. I am advised that the British Standards Institution is to bring out a British Standard—indeed, it has done so—for small disposable aerosol extinguishers. There will then be a British Standard for all portable extinguishers, except extinguishers which have plastic bodies, and work on that will be started by the British Standards Institution very soon. Therefore, if I may, I repeat the advice: use extinguishers with a British Standards Institution ratification and use extinguishers which are serviced properly.

Viscount Hanworth

My Lords—

Lord Glenkinglas

My Lords, would my noble friend agree that there are—

Several noble Lords

Order!

Viscount Hanworth

My Lords, I think there should be a question from this side. May I ask the noble Lord whether he realises that many of the fire extinguishers which do not conform to the new aerosol standard are ineffective, do not work when required and give a very false sense of security? This being so, will he take steps to ban all those aerosol fire extinguishers which do not conform with the new British Standard? Will he, at the same time, try to inform people that if they want full protection they must have a more expensive type of conventional fire extinguisher?

Lord Belstead

My Lords, as I have just said in answer to the noble Lord, Lord Winstanley, a British Standards Institution standard has, in fact, just been published—it is two months ago—and it is BS.6165 on small disposable extinguishers of the aerosol type which the noble Viscount is asking me about. The noble Viscount asked me whether the Government would take steps to do something about it if such extinguishers, none the less, proved to be less than effective. I would say to that that, if it became clear that extinguishers which did not conform to the standard were continuing to be manufactured and sold in this country, and presented a serious risk of personal injury, the Government would wish to consider possible further action under the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act.

Lord Glenkinglas

My Lords, will my noble friend perhaps help the House in agreeing that agricultural machinery, to which he has mostly referred in his answers, is one thing, but there are very few civilian machines that are used indoors? Therefore, what applies to the agricultural machines also applies to the civilian ones.

Lord Belstead

I agree entirely with my noble friend.

Viscount Hanworth

My Lords, in answer to my question, does the noble Lord realise that for nearly 10 years I have been endeavouring to get the standard for aerosol fire extinguishers which has just been published and that the standard for the ones which do not work has been in existence for 10 years? Will the Government therefore seriously consider, now that the standard is there, doing something about banning those which do not conform?

Lord Belstead

My Lords, the standard is there. I am saying publicly, as the Home Office has said to the National Farmers' Union, that standards ought to be looked at carefully. I repeat—surely the advice is to use the British Standards Institution standards and use only extinguishers which are serviced regularly and properly.

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