Arts Council Grant (Hansard, 7 December 1981)

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Earl of Avon
My Lords, I am pleased to say that the Arts Council's grant for 1982–83, which was announced by my right honourable friend the Minister for the Arts on 4th December, will be increased from £80 million to £86 million.

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that the worst fears of the arts organisations have not been realised and that it would be churlish to deny the Minister at least two cheers for his achievement? Would he, however, ask his colleague to look again at the case of the Theatres Trust, where a grant of £15,000 has been cut to £10,000 and an intimation given that next year it may be cut to nil? Is the noble Earl aware that, while I must declare an interest as the director of that trust, it is the general view that that trust, set up by Act of Parliament, performs a very useful public service in safeguarding theatre buildings? May I ask the noble Lord whether he 1199 would not agree that it should not be denied a small grant of public money so that it may continue to fulfil this important function?

§ The Earl of Avon
My Lords, I am indeed grateful to the noble Lord for his two cheers. As far as the Theatres Trust is concerned, I understand that the present grant was a once-and-for-all one. While we fully recognise the difficulties which the trust faces in these difficult times we cannot undertake any continuing commitment.

§ Lord Cottesloe
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that in 1960 the Arts Council grant was £1,500,000 and in 1965 £3,250,000, and the fact that it has now been increased to £86 million shows that its real value has been continuously and very greatly increased, and that this should be a matter not indeed for complacency but for greater satisfaction to everybody concerned?

§ The Earl of Avon
My Lords, I am very grateful to my noble friend for adding the third cheer.

§ Lord Strabolgi
My Lords, while welcoming the increased grant, may I ask the Government whether more financial help could not be given to the national orchestras, as these are finding it very difficult to break even at present?

§ The Earl of Avon
My Lords, I think that that is a slightly different question. But, basically, anything in which the Government have been interested in this particular round has been increased by the same percentage.

§ Lord Shinwell
My Lords, is there not a great deal to be said for what my noble friend Lord Jenkins is asking? When everything seems to be going wrong, let us retain something worth while. The only proviso I would make is that, if he wants an increase in the arts grants, he must be prepared for a rejection of some of his other ideas.

§ The Earl of Avon
My Lords, I am not, of course, quite sure to what the noble Lord refers, but, if he is referring to what I am thinking of, I do not think the Government give a grant towards it. If I may say so to the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, I think that this is a question for the Arts Council itself, which actually gives to the live orchestras, rather than for the Government.

The Earl of Gosford
My Lords, does the Minister agree that, with such a disproportionate amount of the Arts Council budget going to large organisations, it would be better for these large organisations to receive some kind of direct grant, which would leave the Arts Council free to encourage regional arts associations to stimulate local authorities to look after small groups, such as individual artists and small troupes, in their own areas?

§ The Earl of Avon
My Lords, I think that we are in danger here of getting rather too muddled between the various and different parts of the arts grant. We 1200 are being asked at the moment about the Arts Council. There are, of course, other grants to the arts—to the major bodies, anyway—and very substantial grants to the regional sectors as well.

Lord Leatherhead
My Lords, may I ask the noble Earl—I do so as a former county council finance committee chairman—whether it would not be a pity if the public were placed in a position where they could criticise us for subsidising chorus girls from the rates?

§ The Earl of Avon
My Lords, we leave the subsidising of the live arts to the Arts Council.

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
My Lords, would the noble Earl agree that at this moment it would be appropriate for me to do no more than request him to ask his right honourable friends, when the time comes, to have another look at the problem of the Theatres Trust?

§ The Earl of Avon
My Lords, of course I will undertake to do that.