HL Deb 30 April 1981 vol 419 cc1273-4

3.11 p.m.

Baroness Phillips

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are aware of the effect on training, efficiency and morale of the Territorial Army following the decison to reduce the number of man training days in independent units.

The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Viscount Trenchard)

My Lords, planned expenditure on Territorial Army man training days will be higher in real terms in 1981–82 than 1980–81, but we are having to impose restrictions as part of the measures to contain expenditure on the defence budget. I am aware of the concern felt within the TA about the possible effects, but I do not expect adverse effects on training and efficiency nor on the ability of the TA to perform its operational role.

Baroness Phillips

My Lords, while I thank the Minister for that reply, it is rather disappointing that, however it is worked out, the number of man training days is fewer. I wonder whether the Minister is aware—I am sure that he is—of the high cost-effectiveness of the Territorial Army. I wonder also whether he will speed the review, because in these days of very specialised training it is important that a volunteer army receives the maximum opportunity to train.

Viscount Trenchard

My Lords, I am sorry that the noble Baroness is disappointed with the Answer. My right honourable friend has already made clear in public that he attaches great importance to the Territorial Army and that its function, role and size are being reviewed in the long-term costing exercise which he is currently engaged in forming. The noble Baroness said that, whatever way it was looked at, we were bringing down the number of training days. I do not know whether that will prove to be so, but if it does it will be by a very marginal amount. In fact, although in past years the entitlement to training days for units has been 44, in 1979–80 the actual uptake averaged 38; in 1980–81 it averaged 37, and in 1981–82 we have allocated to units 36; districts have one training day up their sleeves and we have a fraction up our sleeve in the centre as well.

Lord Peart

My Lords, may I say from the Opposition Front Bench that I am grateful for the way in which the noble Viscount has treated this Question. I think my noble friend has put her finger on something which is very important, namely, to create an organisation for the defence of our country; but may I ask the noble Viscount to reconsider this, and perhaps during the defence debate which we shall soon be having he will be able to give a further report?

Viscount Trenchard

My Lords, may I first wish the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition many happy returns of the day.

Several noble Lords

Hear, hear!

Viscount Trenchard

My Lords, having wished him a happy birthday may I then say to the noble Lord that I do not think on the aspect of my Answer to the noble Baroness I can tell him that I will reconsider it, but what I will certainly say is that I am sure that the role of the Territorial Army will be brought forward in future defence debates.

Lord Gisborough

My Lords, will the noble Viscount confirm that the transferability of man days has now been stopped, and therefore each man is only able to do his strict number of days rather than borrow from another, and will this not impinge on the maintenance of vehicles which were maintained by active members doing more than their strict number of days working in place of those who did not turn up?

Viscount Trenchard

My Lords, my noble friend is not quite correct in that. Indeed very recently we have agreed to increase the flexibility for the current year. The entitlement was 44 days but it was never taken up; it is now to be 36 days, of which 27 (and this figure has always been the same) are obligatory and 9 are voluntary. Commanding officers have always had discretion in relation to the voluntary days and we have recently agreed that they can be flexible in relation to four man days of the obligatory kind.

Lord Renton

My Lords, is it not a fact that some training days are less costly than others, and will my noble friend give some indication as to whether the Government are going to allow the less costly days to be more numerous?

Viscount Trenchard

My Lords, this comes in a further area of the CO's flexibility. We have asked COs in order to contain the over-expenditure of our budget (in regard to which the T.A. is being asked to do slightly less than the rest of the Army) to consider the various types of training days and the degree to which they can help to contain the budget in the manner suggested by my noble friend.

Lord Morris

My Lords, arising out of his earlier answer, is my noble friend the Minister aware that the reduction in man training days can hardly be described as minimal. It may be marginal, but it represents a reduction of over 25 per cent.

Viscount Trenchard

My Lords, I think I have made clear that the average number of man training days used by units in the last two years has been 38 and 37 and that we have allocations this year which, at maximum, reached 38.