The Royal Navy: New Heavyweight Torpedo (Hansard, 28 April 1981)

§ The Earl of Kimberley
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ Viscount Trenchard
My Lords, a decision on the choice of a new heavyweight torpedo for the Royal Navy will be taken later this year. Two options are currently being studied: a British development by Marconi Space and Defence Systems Limited drawing on the technology used in Sting Ray, and a United States development of their Mark 48 torpedo.

§ The Earl of Kimberley
My Lords, I thank my noble friend the Minister for that Answer. Is he aware, all things being equal, that if the American torpedo was built it would do the United Kingdom industry—an industry which has been built up very successfully by Sting Ray—a lot of harm and, furthermore, it may damage Sting Ray's export potential? Secondly, would he agree that, in the past, decisions to buy American conventional weapons have often proved to be much more expensive than originally anticipated, and also that any offset work in the United Kingdom has often been very disappointing?

§ Viscount Trenchard
My Lords, I can assure my noble friend that all those considerations will be taken into account in any decisions which we come to this year. I note what my noble friend says in relation to foreign equipment perhaps proving to be more expensive than was at first thought. But I believe that the experience of the staff in the Ministry of Defence is well up to making a realistic assessment of all these factors and of the practicality of offset.

§ Lord Blyton
My Lords, can the Minister tell me what is the advantage of this new suggested torpedo against the Mark 8, which we now have in the submarine service of the country? What happens to the Government's policy on Trident, if they are going to follow these two torpedoes?

§ Viscount Trenchard
My Lords, I think it is generally recognised by the experts concerned—and we hope very much that other countries will also do so— 1125 that a new generation of light torpedoes such as Sting Ray, and a new heavy torpedo, are currently required. I do not believe that this question overlaps with the Trident question any more than does the fact that the Trident decision is one decision within a comprehensive defence budget.

§ Lord Elwyn-Jones
My Lords, could the noble Viscount say what will be the estimated cost of these alternative torpedoes, and whether it will be additional to the anticipated £5,000 million expenditure in this field?

§ Viscount Trenchard
My Lords, I must say to the noble and learned Lord that the linking of the torpedo decision with the Trident decision, which has been well aired both in this House and in the other place on many occasions, is not relevant. So far as the costs of the torpedo are concerned, I am not at present in a position to reveal these. There are two contenders, and their bids in relation to both cost and technicality are being examined.

§ Lord Orr-Ewing
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the technologies incorporated in these two new torpedoes cover electronics, engineering and underwater, that they all have a considerably advanced background and, as my noble friend will remember from his days in the Ministry for Industry, that they are potential growth areas for jobs in this country? Therefore it is extremely important that we should encourage home development, home production, and the jobs which will go with them.

§ Viscount Trenchard
My Lords, I am aware of the points which my noble friend has made.

§ Lord Blyton
My Lords, could the Minister tell me what is the greater destructive power of this new Marconi torpedo compared with those which we use now? As an ex-submariner, I am puzzled as to what all this is about. Whatever torpedo it may be, the mechanics inside it cannot be altered for the submarines that we have now.

§ Viscount Trenchard
My Lords, in the noble Lord clearly I have an expert in the technicalities of torpedoes. Therefore I shall not attempt to argue with the noble Lord, though I promise to write to him. All the experts in the Services and in the Ministry of Defence believe that a new generation of heavy torpedo is essential to our national security.

§ Lord Beswick
My Lords, when the option is between two contenders, one British and one foreign, and when the price is about the same, can the noble Viscount say to what extent consideration is given to the fact that, of the British cost, probably about one-third is directly returnable to local and central Government by way of taxation—profits tax and income tax—and rates?

§ Viscount Trenchard
My Lords, those considerations which the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, has raised are of course always at the back of our minds. I wish it were true that in every case of alternative supplies offered, costs were nearly the same.

§ Baroness Gaitskell
My Lords, are the Government thinking of deploying the 3 million unemployed that we have in this country and putting them entirely into the arms industry?

§ Viscount Trenchard
No, my Lords. Whatever we did to the defence budget, there is not room to put all the 3 million unemployed, even if that were a practical figure for employment, into the defence industries. However, we are well aware of the employment benefits of the defence industries, of their high technology and of the need to buy British, wherever that is the practical course to follow.