HL Deb 08 April 1981 vol 419 cc526-8

2.42 p.m.

Lord Gainford

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what plans they have to improve the school examination system at GCE Ordinary Level and CSE so that it provides prospective employers with a more realistic guide to a pupil's ability.

The Minister of State, Department of Education and Science (Baroness Young)

My Lords, GCE O-level and CSE examinations are to be replaced by a system of examinations based on a single scale of grades with national criteria for syllabuses and assessment procedures. We are confident that employers will find the new system more intelligible and informative than the present arrangements.

Lord Gainford

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that Answer. Can she give any information as to the Government's proposals for the use of profile reports on pupils—how they behaved during their time at school—so that a potential employer may be informed as to the kind of person he or she may be taking on?

Baroness Young

My Lords, examination certificates do not of course record the full range of pupils' achievements at school, even for those who get high grades in a substantial number of subjects. We have invited the Schools Council to undertake additional work on the development of records of achievement which would include examination results as well as a range of other information helpful to employers.

Lord George-Brown

Nevertheless, my Lords, may I suggest to the Minister—

Several noble Lords: No.

Lord George-Brown

Certain noble Lords may consider themselves good at detail, my Lords. May I ask the Minister to be very careful, please, about this sudden tendency towards teachers' profiles of pupils? Speaking as one who never passed an O-level in his life, may I ask the noble Baroness whether she is aware that nevertheless I have a tremendous appreciation of what a teacher who might have disapproved of my personal rebelliousness, or whatever they might have chosen to call it, could have put into my profile? Will the Minister please go very carefully on this matter, particularly at a time when, as most of us know, the teaching profession is very much infiltrated by people with particular political motivations?

Baroness Young

My Lords, I made it quite clear in my main Answer that we are committed to a system of examinations at 16 plus, and there is no question of substituting anything else for an examination system. We are looking at a system of records of achievement and we have asked the Schools Council to do some research on that.

Baroness David

My Lords, what does the department intend to suggest about the 20 per cent. of pupils who take no exams, neither GCE O-levels nor CSE? What sort of assessment will they suggest for those pupils, who need one just as much as the exam-takers?

Baroness Young

My Lords, this is of course a matter of the target group at whom the 16 plus examinations will be aimed, and there is not at present a single system of examining which could be extended to cover the whole ability range and at the same time maintain standards. However, we are concerned that many school-leavers leave without any written state- ment of their achievements and it is to that end that we are looking at this whole question of a record of achievement; but we have not taken any decision on the form it might take.

Lord Bruce of Donington

My Lords, is the Minister aware that it is normally quite easy for an employer, when proposing to take on an applicant, if the interview is thorough, to have a fairly good idea of the person's ability?

Baroness Young

My Lords, I do not doubt that an employer, after an interview, can have a clear idea of the applicant's ability. It is often very important for the applicant to get to the interview in the first place, and therefore a record of achievement is important.

Lord Hale

My Lords, does the Minister not recall the affaire des fiches in France which caused a controversy over military employment, because it was said that the words "good Roman Catholic" was one of the titles used to identify a suitable army officer in a Roman Catholic country? That started a political rumbustious row which lasted for many years and had severe political consequences upon the introduction of hostilities.

Baroness Young

The noble Lord's observations are rather wide of the Question, my Lords, but I assure him that we are not going into any system of a record of achievement without looking very carefully at it, and that is why we are still doing research on it.

Baroness David

My Lords, will the DES be making some pronouncement about the linking of the various examination boards? They seem to be taking a long time about it and do not appear to be getting on very well together at the moment. Could the Minister say, further, when the Cockroft Report will be issued, and whether its proposals will be co-ordinated into any new proposals that will be coming out?

Baroness Young

My Lords, the answer to the first part of that supplementary is that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State believes that there should be four groups of examining boards in England and one in Wales, and I believe we are close to the point when their detailed composition can be finally settled. On the second point the noble Baroness raised. I have no information at present.

2.48 p.m.