Lords Sitting of 30 October 1980

Preamble
The House met at three of the clock: The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Norwich.

COMMISSION FOR RACIAL EQUALITY: REPORT
Lord BROCKWAY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what response they have made to the criticisms and proposals made by the Commission for Racial Equality in their annual report.
The PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY of STATE, HOME OFFICE (Lord Belstead): My Lords, the annual report of the Commission for Racial Equality covers a great deal of ground. It is not practicable to deal with all the criticisms and proposals in it, some of which are in very general terms, within the scope of an oral reply. But my right honourable friend the Home Secretary has carefully noted the contents of the report, and the Government are in close and regular contact with the commission.
Lord BROCKWAY: My Lords, would the Minister agree that it is very rare for a Government to have been so criticised by a Government-appointed commission, and is it not more distasteful to Her Majesty's Government that the chairman should have been a distinguished Conservative Member of Parliament? May I ask the noble Lord two specific questions? First, what is the Government's reply to the charge that they have taken no steps to implement an effective policy in respect of Government contracts? Secondly, what is the Government's reply to the charge that, by changing immigration rules, in particular with regard to fiancés, they have caused a setback to race relations in this country?
Lord BELSTEAD: My Lords, I do not accept the first supplementary question of the noble Lord: indeed, I do not accept
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his first two supplementary questions. So far as Government contracts are concerned, the matter of employment policies of Government contractors is to be discussed, at the request of the Commission for Racial Equality, by the Department of Employment's Race Relations Employment Advisory Group when it next meets, probably in December.
I shall not conceal from the House the fact that the Government have no plans to pursue the proposal that the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, has in mind of requiring contractors to comply with provisions of the current race relations legislation, and having this matter monitored into the bargain. That proposal would be incompatible with the stated policy of not imposing additional burdens upon industry. With regard to the noble Lord's last supplementary question, the current immigration rules lead, I believe, to firm immigration control, which is a prerequisite of good race relations in this country.
Lord BROCKWAY: My Lords, will the Government respond to the commission's call
"for more leadership from the top",
and for the Government
"to take a clear and unequivocal stand"
to meet
"the frustration and disappointment of the last year"?
Lord BELSTEAD: My Lords, in parenthesis my answer is, yes.
Lord HATCH of LUSBY: My Lords, in view of the Minister's previous answer to my noble friend to the effect that the Government are assisting race relations through their immigration policy, may I ask whether he equates policy on immigration into this country with coloured immigration, or is he speaking of immigration of all people, irrespective of their skin colour?
Lord BELSTEAD: My Lords, immigration as covered by the immigration rules—
Lord HATCH of LUSBY: How is that assisting race relations, my Lords?
Lord BELSTEAD: My Lords, it is assisting race relations due to the fact that we are a very small island with only a limited amount of capacity.

THE EUROPEAN COMMUNITY: MUTTON AND LAMB RÉGIME
3.10 p.m.
Lord CHELWOOD: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will summarise the recently agreed European Community proposals for the production, import and export of mutton and lamb; what are their implications for the farmer, the taxpayer and the consumer; and to what extent they meet the serious anxieties previously expressed by Australia and New Zealand.
The MINISTER of STATE, MINISTRY of AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES and FOOD (Earl Ferrers): My Lords, the Community régime for mutton and lamb came into effect on 20th October 1980. The support provisions consist of measures to guarantee producers' incomes through annual premiums on ewes, together with the option of operating either intervention or a variable premium, which is in effect a weekly deficiency payment and is on similar lines to our previous Fat Sheep Guarantee. Member states who operate the variable premium must recover an amount equivalent to the premium on sheep or carcases which they export.
Trade with the major third country suppliers is covered by voluntary restraint agreements. Under these, third countries will restrict their exports to the Community to a level slightly above that which prevailed recently. In return for this restriction, they will enjoy a halving of the import duty on the consignments which they send.
The régime will increase the returns of United Kingdom farmers whilst fully protecting the interests of consumers. The support arrangements are fully financed by the Community. The voluntary restraint agreements will safeguard
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the position of Australia and New Zealand on terms which were acceptable to their Governments.
Lord CHELWOOD: My Lords, I am most grateful for that summary of a very complicated agreement, in regard to which I feel the Government deserve much praise for the skill and patience that they have shown in negotiating it. May I put two brief supplementary questions to my noble friend? First, does he agree with me that had a Socialist Britain not been a member of the Community, New Zealand's and Australia's traditional export markets would have been at risk from dumping of subsidised frozen lamb and butter from the intervention stockpiles, and that therefore it is just as well that we are members of the Community?
Secondly, may I ask my noble friend whether he will say a word about the very serious problems which have faced farmers in the last week or two with regard to their exports (particularly, I think, to West Germany and Holland) resulting from the clawback of subsidies which is required when lamb is exported? I think I am right in saying that we hope to continue to export some 20 per cent. of our lamb production.
Earl FERRERS: My Lords, I entirely agree with my noble friend that it is because we are members of the Community that we have been able to protect the interests of Australia and New Zealand in the way I have described.
My noble friend is perfectly right in saying that there have been problems over the export of lamb to Belgium and Germany, particularly, since these proposals came into operation. The reason is the combination of the fact that exporters have to pay what is rather unpleasantly described as the "clawback" and, of course, the transport charges, which has made the resultant price of English lamb in those countries temporarily relatively uncompetitive. But I would say this to my noble friend: the new scheme has been in operation only since 20th October. It will take time to settle down, and I would hope that these initial problems will be overcome. But I can tell my noble friend that the Commission have given a firm undertaking that they will keep the clawback arrangements

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under review, and they have confirmed that it is not the intention to hinder the development of the export trade.

CONSERVATIVE PARTY CONFERENCE INCIDENT
3.14 p.m.
Lord BRUCE of DONINGTON: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether their attention has been drawn to a report in The Times of 11th October of proceedings at the Conservative Party Conference in Brighton on 10th October and in particular to that part which reads "one young man near me was being dragged from the hall unconscious after a pounding on the floor of the centre aisle by security men in plain clothes and some Conservatives, including women"; whether they have called for a report from the chief constable of Sussex on this incident; and whether proceedings are contemplated to uphold the rule of law.
Lord BELSTEAD: My Lords, I understand that on two separate occasions on the afternoon of 10th October the proceedings at the Conservative Party Conference in Brighton were interrupted by a protester. In each case the man concerned was first approached by the conference stewards and was then escorted from the hall by plain clothes police. Both men were released later that day, and no complaint of assault has been made by either of them.
Lord BRUCE of DONINGTON: But, my Lords, is the noble Lord aware that Mr. Fred Emery, who was the reporter in this case—a most reputable reporter on the staff of The Times—was sitting only a few yards away from where the particular incident took place and that there is no reason to doubt the veracity of this report? Is he further aware that the young man concerned, a Mr. Michael Carver, who is 5 feet 6 inches high and of only slight build, was carried from the hall unconscious, awoke in a police cell
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and was arrested without any charge being preferred against him? Is the noble Lord further aware that Mr. Carver was detained in the Royal Sussex Hospital overnight in order that his condition could be checked?
Lord BELSTEAD: My Lords, all I can say is that the information which the noble Lord has is not the same information as I have. I understand that neither of the protesters was unconscious when escorted from the hall and neither has complained of an assault.
Lord BOYD-CARPENTER: My Lords, if I were to table a Question to my noble friend embodying press reports of the proceedings at the Labour Party Conference, would my noble friend institute the necessary proceedings under the Mental Health Act?
Lord HALE: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that Mr. Fred Emery is the political editor of The Times and he has submitted this statement of what he saw—a quite appalling statement and one that it would be impossible for Mr. Emery to make unless he had seen the things he says he observed? Is the noble Lord now saying, apart from making jokes about the Labour Party Conference, that they have made no attempt to find out who gave the order for this man's arrest? Were the police to whom the noble Lord referred in his original Answer in fact official police officers? Because another reporter has said that they were hired security agents.
Several noble Lords: Oh!
Lord HALE: My Lords, this is a very serious matter, and it should be treated seriously.
The LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL (Lord Soames): My Lords, I really do ask the noble Lord to get on and ask his question, please.
Lord HALE: My Lords, I will not get on and ask the question.
Several noble Lords: Oh!
Lord HALE: As it is the Leader of the House, yes; but I will also raise the matter in debate in those circumstances. That is my question.
Lord MISHCON: My Lords, will the noble Lord permit me—
Lord BELSTEAD: My Lords, if I may reply to the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Hale, the answer is that we have been in contact with the Sussex police about these incidents and it was on the results of that contact that my replies to the noble Lord, Lord Bruce of Donington, were based.
Lord HALE: There was no investigation at The Times?
Lord BELSTEAD: My Lords, the obvious thing to do on being asked a Question of this kind was to get in touch with the people who escorted the two young men from the hall. They were the Sussex police, and it is upon that contact that my replies this afternoon have been based.

USE OF FLAMMABLE MATERIALS IN AIRCRAFT
3.19 p.m.
Lord SMITH: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will use their influence to persuade the major airlines to prohibit the use in the cabins of aircraft of materials which are highly inflammable or which give off lethal gases if ignited.
Lord TREFGARNE: My Lords, the responsibility for such matters lies with the Civil Aviation Authority. Furnishing materials already used in British passenger-carrying aircraft are required to satisfy the flame resistance specifications laid down in the British civil airworthiness requirements. Only materials which are not readily flammable and will not of themselves sustain low-level burning can meet these specifications. The question of toxic gases is another matter and is more difficult to resolve, as all organic materials can produce toxic fumes when burned.
Lord SMITH: My Lords, may I thank the Minister for that helpful and
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in many ways, in part, at least, reassuring Answer. I should like to press him a little on the latter part of my Question and to ask several supplementary questions. I apologise for the number of them, but they all bear on the same point so that perhaps he may answer them together. Would he not agree that there is something singularly horrible about an aeroplane with a cabin fire landing without damage and, before those inside can be taken out, every single one of more than 300 is dead? I am referring to the disaster at Riyadh. I know there has been no official report of this but it is conceded that the mode of death of these unfortunate people was precisely that which you would expect from the release of large toxic quantities of something in a confined space. May I ask whether, although it may be difficult but not impossible to control the use of materials which release gases as opposed to controlling flammability, it is agreed that this is becoming a more important subject with the chemical development of modern plastics? Thirdly, is the Minister aware that some of these plastics will release cyanide gas which will kill within seconds? Adding these together, will the noble Lord agree that it is not just flammability standards which require control but the release of dangerous chemicals?
Lord TREFGARNE: My Lords, if I may answer the first point put by the noble Lord about the Saudi accident at Riyadh, I would suggest to him that it is a mistake to jump to conclusions about the causes of that accident. The authorities there are currently conducting an inquiry and I hope that in due course their report will be made available. As for the specific points that the noble Lord put subsequently, I can assure him that there is a considerable amount of research going on into this matter. We hope that the present position, which is not too unsatisfactory, can be improved in the near future.
Lord WHADDON: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the aircraft in question appears to have landed safely but that a few seconds later, by the time the runway had been cleared, everybody was dead? Pending the result of the inquiry, will he advise all British pilots who might be involved in similar circumstances to be

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sure to evacuate the aircraft as soon as it stops rolling and not bother to clear the runway?
Lord TREFGARNE: My Lords, I am sure that British pilots do not need that sort of advice. I can tell the noble Lord that in fact the passengers were alive in the aircraft for some considerable number of minutes.

PRISON SERVICES IN NORTHERN IRELAND
3.23 p.m.
Lord BLEASE: My Lords, I beg to ask Her Majesty's Government the Question of which I have given private notice.
The Question was as follows:
"To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in view of the recent developments in Northern Ireland, they will ask the Northern Ireland Labour Relations Agency to activate its services with a view to resolving the problems of the prison services in Northern Ireland arising from the implications of the Imprisonment (Temporary Provisions) Act 1980."
The PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY of STATE, NORTHERN IRELAND OFFICE (Lord Elton): My Lords, no. The dispute which is giving rise to the current industrial action in Northern Ireland is not a local one. The present action by Northern Ireland prison officers is not in furtherance of any Northern Ireland claim but in support of action being taken by their colleagues in England and Wales over a meal break allowance dispute here. There is therefore no case to refer to the Northern Ireland Labour Relations Agency.
Lord BLEASE: My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for that reply, may I ask whether it is not a fact that the Privy Council met last evening and in an Order-in-Council put into operation certain implications arising from the action taken by prison officers in Northern Ireland? Whatever terms may be used to describe it, is it not a fact that the grievance or dispute (call it sympathetic action or whatever) that is there at the moment is
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causing considerable concern? Would the Minister not agree that for the very reasons he has given, since there is a separate body of industrial relations legislation procedures in Northern Ireland which is distinct from that in England and Wales, the Northern Ireland Labour Relations Agency, which is an independent body, could usefully undertake a third-party conciliatory role in this delicate matter at this time?
Lord ELTON: My Lords, an Order-in-Council was brought into operation last night in response to this developing situation: it was not because of it. It provides that remand hearings may be undertaken in the prisoner's absence. However, a court may at any time direct that a prisoner should be brought before it. That was in response to the situation: it did not give rise to it. The action in Northern Ireland is taken in sympathy with conditions in England and Wales, conditions which are not the same as those in Northern Ireland. Therefore, although there are separate procedures available in the Province, the dispute is not subject to them and is not relevant to them. I do not think it would be useful to involve the agency in this process.
Lord HAMPTON: My Lords, the Ulster prison officers, who are much respected for the courage they show in fulfilling their arduous and often dangerous duties, work a different shift system and are paid differently from their colleagues in England and Wales. Should not a further appeal be made to convince them that they would not breach solidarity by continuing to perform their duties as usual and that their first loyalty should be to the community? There might otherwise be a much greater risk in Ulster than on the mainland through the present tensions and the fact that a much greater proportion of prisoners in Northern Ireland are committed for serious crimes.
Lord ELTON: My Lords, the noble Lord is right. Agreement was reached in Northern Ireland with the Prison Officers' Association on 17th November 1978, and the Northern Ireland Office and the Northern Ireland branch of the Prison Officers' Association were commended by the May Committee for resolving the question; so the situation is

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different. I am sure that the prison officers in the Province are aware both of the high regard in which their services are held by the public and of the special conditions which make a high standard of conduct there extremely desirable.
Lord BROCKWAY: My Lords, am I right in thinking that the Bill that we adopted yesterday applies only to England and Wales? What are the Government going to do if prison officers in Northern Ireland take similar action to that which has been taken in this country?
Lord ELTON: My Lords, the noble Lord is right about the Bill, which is now an Act. But the noble Lord will recall that I have just said that there is an Order-in-Council, which was passed under the emergency procedure last night, to cope with the situation which the noble Lord foresees.
Lord ELWYN-JONES: My Lords, will the noble Lord say whether the Order-in-Council is debateable in this House?
Lord ELTON: Yes, my Lords, within 40 days.
Lord BLEASE: My Lords, may I plead with the Minister again? May I ask him to consider the "fire" from the prevention point of view rather than from the salvage point of view? Would it not be ironic if, as is possible, this dispute was to be resolved in England and Wales and for its side effects to continue in Northern Ireland for want of having some third-party communications and involvement?
Lord ELTON: My Lords, the "fire", as the noble Lord termed it, is burning in England and Wales. The action taken in the Province is by those in sympathy with the situation in England and Wales. The situation in Northern Ireland is not the same as here. Terms of service have been reached on the date that I mentioned, 17th November 1978. They are not concerned for themselves to obtain a continuous duty credit, which is what the dispute is about in England and Wales. Therefore, there is not a case in existence to which the machinery to which the noble Lord referred can be applied. I can undertake to carry to those of my
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colleagues who have responsibility for the service in the Province the anxiety which the noble Lord feels on this matter; but I fear that the answer will be the same.

BUSINESS
Lord DENHAM: My Lords, it may be for the convenience of the House if I announce that dinner will be available tonight at the usual time.
The Report stage of the Local Government, Planning and Land (No. 2) Bill will be adjourned at approximately 7 o'clock for about 40 minutes, and the Third Reading of the Tenants' Rights, Etc. (Scotland) Amendment Bill will be taken during this adjournment.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT, PLANNING and LAND (No. 2) BILL
3.30 p.m.
Further considered on Report.
Schedule 22 [Land: miscellaneous amendments]:
The Earl of AVON The Earl of AVON moved Amendment No. 148ZB:
Page 227, line 40, leave out from ("3(1)(b)") to end of page 228, line 2, and insert ("omit the words from "except" to "case";

(b) in paragraph 3(1) omit head (c) and the proviso;

(c) in paragraph 7A omit "the confirming authority and to" and "or affixing of notices"; and

(d) in paragraph 19(4)—

(i) for "having jurisdiction to confirm or" substitute "or authority having jurisdiction to"; and

(ii) add the following proviso at the end:—

"Provided that this sub-paragraph shall not have effect in relation to an owner, lessee or occupier being a local authority or statutory undertakers or the National Trust."").
The noble Earl said: My Lords, this amendment makes some simple technical alterations to give proper effect to the intention behind the changes set out in paragraph 1. These changes remove the need for acquiring authorities to obtain the consent of the Minister (the confirming authority) to dispense with the service of

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notices of the making of a compulsory purchase order, where it is impracticable to ascertain the name of the owner of the land. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
The Earl of AVON The Earl of AVON moved Amendment No. 148ZC:
Page 228, leave out lines 29 to 31 and insert ("the words following paragraph (ii)").
The noble Earl said: My Lords, with this amendment, with permission, I should also like to speak to Amendment No. 148ZD. When this schedule was considered in Committee in another place, the Minister agreed to retain the need for ministerial consent where local authorities wish to appropriate or dispose of land held for use as allotments. This and the following amendment provide the necessary drafting changes to give effect to that undertaking. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
The Earl of AVON The Earl of AVON moved Amendment No. 148ZD:
Page 229, leave out lines 3 to 5 and insert ("and
(b) in subsection (5) the words following paragraph (ii)").
The noble Earl said: My Lords, I have already spoken to this amendment with the preceding Amendment No. 148ZC. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
The Earl of AVON The Earl of AVON moved Amendment No. 148ZE:
Page 229, leave out lines 16 to 35 and insert—
("10. The following subsections shall be substituted for subsections (2) and (3) of section 122 of that Act (appropriation of land for planning purposes):—
"(2) The consent of the Secretary of State shall be requisite to any appropriation under this section of land which, immediately before the appropriation, is land which consists or forms part of a common, or formerly consisted or formed part of a common, and is held or managed by a local authority in accordance with a local Act.
(2A) Any such consent may be given either in respect of a particular appropriation or in respect of appropriations of any class, and may be given either subject to or free from any conditions or limitations.
(2B) Before appropriating under this section any land which consists of or forms part of an open space, a local authority—

(a) shall publish a notice of their intention to do so for at least two consecutive
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weeks in a newspaper circulating in their area; and

(b) shall consider any objections to the proposed appropriation which may be made to them".

11. The following subsections shall be substituted for subsections (2) to (6) of section 123 of that Act (disposal of land held for planning purposes):—
"(2) The consent of the Secretary of State shall be requisite to any disposal under this section—

(a) of land which, immediately before the disposal, is land which consists or forms part of a common, or formerly consisted or formed part of a common, and is held or managed by a local authority in accordance with a local Act; or

(b) where the disposal is to be for a consideration less than the best that can reasonably be obtained and is not—

(i) the grant of a term of seven years or less; or

(ii) the assignment of a term of years of which seven years or less are unexpired at the date of the assignment.

(2A) Before disposing under this section of any land which consists of or forms part of an open space, a local authority

(a) shall publish a notice of their intention to do so for at least two consecutive weeks in a newspaper circulating in their area; and

(b) shall consider any objections to the proposed disposal which may be made to them."".

The noble Earl said: My Lords, this extraordinary and formidable looking amendment introduces a simple but important safeguard. It provides that where a local authority proposes to appropriate or dispose of open space land under the powers in the Town and Country Planning Act 1971, the proposal must first be advertised for two consecutive weeks in a local newspaper and any objections considered. Schedule 22 already makes similar provision in respect of appropriations and disposals under the Town and Country Planning Act 1959 and the Local Government Act 1972. This amendment gives effect to an undertaking given during consideration of the schedule in Committee. In drafting it, the opportunity has also been taken to integrate the new advertising requirement with the other amendments to Sections 122 and 123 of the 1971 Act so that the changes are presented in a more intelligible form. I beg to move.
Lord UNDERHILL: My Lords, is it sufficient that after the advertisement in the local newspaper the local authority itself is left to consider the objections to something it wants to do?
The Earl of AVON: My Lords, yes, I think so. It is what we have been trying to do. I will look into the point that the noble Lord has raised.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
The Earl of AVON The Earl of AVON moved Amendment No. 148ZE:
Page 229, leave out lines 38 to 40 and insert—
("12.—(1) In section 122 of the Local Government Act 1972 (appropriation of land by principal councils) the words in subsection (2) following paragraph (b) shall cease to have effect.
(2) The following subsections shall be inserted after that subsection:—").
The noble Earl said: My Lords, with this amendment, with permission, I should also like to speak to Amendment No. 148ZG. They are both consequential amendments. One of the effects of Part VI of Schedule 22 is to remove the need for local authorities to obtain ministerial consent to the appropriation of open space and to substitute a requirement that proposals must first be advertised and objections considered. As a consequence of this change, open space will not come within the ambit of Section 122(2) of the 1972 Act in the case of principal councils, or of Section 126(4) in the case of parish councils, so that the provision freeing the land from any public trusts is no longer applicable. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
The Earl of AVON The Earl of AVON moved Amendment No. 148ZG:
Page 231, leave out lines 1 to 3 and insert—
("17.—(1) "In section 126 of that Act (appropriation of land by parish and community councils and by parish meetings) the words in subsection (4) following paragraph (b) shall cease to have effect.
(2) The following subsections shall be inserted after that subsection:—").
The noble Earl said: My Lords, I have already spoken to this amendment with the preceding Amendment No. 148ZE.
I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
The PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE, DEPARTMENT of the ENVIRONMENT (Lord Bellwin)The PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE, DEPARTMENT of the ENVIRONMENT (Lord Bellwin) moved Amendment No. 148A:
Page 108, line 3, leave out from ("Commission") to end of line 6.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this amendment seeks to reverse one carried in Committee against the advice of the Government. The voting was very close and I hope that a fuller explanation of our original intentions with this clause will convince the House that the Government are right. The amendment which I am moving is a critical point in the strategy for new towns and indeed in the Government's overall strategy. Massive amounts of public money are tied up in the new towns and we need to be able to redeploy them to the best advantage for the new town, and indeed for the country as a whole.
The new towns have been, and are, an important part of the way in which this country has developed since the war. They have given many hundreds of thousands of people a new start in life. They have provided an excellent new environment for many families. They have created, and are still creating, conditions in which industrial growth can take place. Many of your Lordships are better qualified than I to speak in detail of these achievements, but I should not want to leave the impression that the Government do not recognise the excellent work that has been done, and is still being done, by the new town development corporations and the Commission for the New Towns.
These achievements are enormous. The cost of achieving them has, equally, also been enormous. The new towns in Britain represent an investment by the taxpayer of over £3,250 million. This represents one of the biggest groups of loans outstanding from the National Loans Fund. It is only surpassed by the electricity industry and the Post Office. It is a continuing investment programme. Although the new towns programme is gradually being completed, investment is still proceeding in practically all the towns. The rate of public investment in the third generation towns, in particular, is probably now at its peak.
It needs little imagination to appreciate that all this adds up to a very substantial call on the Exchequer for finance. In the English towns alone, capital investment in housing, sewerage, roads, industrial and commercial development, and civic amenities amounted in the past financial year to £336 million. In the current

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financial year the capital investment in these fields will be over £350 million. To this must be added the substantial investments of a similar nature being made in Wales and Scotland and the very considerable investment which other public authorities, such as water authorities, local education authorities, and health authorities, must make.
The massive share of this investment provided by the new town corporations has been raised by central Government: that is, by the taxpayers. Our view has consistently been that if the nation as a whole is providing the resources, then the nation as a whole—acting through central Government—should have the final say in the future of these assets. In particular, central Government should be able to say whether the assets should be redeployed.
I must stress again that it is about the redeployment of assets that we are talking. I have explained that the new town investment programme is continuing. Over the two years 1979–80 and 1980–81 alone there will be capital investment of over £700 million. All this investment must be financed. The traditional way in which this has been done is for the money to be borrowed through the National Loans Fund, thus increasing the public sector borrowing requirements. Even the last Government could not view with equanimity the financing of a programme of this vast scale wholly from new borrowings. They encouraged the new towns to get significant parts of the industrial and commercial development done through private finance. Likewise they introduced the idea of the rolling over of assets. Under this, towns were free to sell assets and to use the proceeds to increase the limited investment allocations which could be made to them for new investment financed by borrowing.
One of the limitations on this system of rolling-over assets was that it applied only to each town separately. For example, Bracknell Development Corporation could sell assets only to reinvest the proceeds in Bracknell. There is, however, a mismatch between the availability of assets suitable for sale and the need for investment. Obviously those towns which have substantially completed their development will have the biggest supply of assets suitable for rolling over and those towns which are in the full flood of development will
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have the greatest need for investment resources. Therefore, if we are to make full use of the concept of roll-over we need to have a mechanism whereby assets may be realised in one town with the intention of reinvesting the proceeds elsewhere. This is what the clause as originally drafted is intended to cover; as I have explained, in the two financial years we are talking of, some £700 million.
It is against this that we have to view the disposals programmes. As noble Lords opposite have several times remarked, we have asked the new towns to raise by the disposal of assets some £330 million. On its own this sounds an enormous figure. But when viewed against the £700 million being invested in the new towns in just the two-year period to which I have referred it falls into its true perspective. I suggest that this puts in perspective allegations of asset stripping and other such red herrings, if I may so describe them, which have been made by noble Lords opposite during the Committee stage. It is a strange sort of asset stripping that continues to plough back in new town programmes as a whole public resources on the scale that is currently taking place.
Noble Lords opposite may question whether this reinvestment will continue. Resources raised by the disposal of new town assets are public resources and what is done with them is part of the Government's collective decision on public expenditure. Of course, I cannot anticipate what future decisions will be, but the development of the new towns is a fact and I can assure the House that we are well aware of the importance of continuing support for them.
It is against this background that I turn briefly to the detail of the amendment that I am now proposing. As the House will see, its purpose is simply to reverse the amendment carried against our advice during Committee stage. I do not want to decry in any way the underlying purpose of this amendment. To anyone working in the real world, it is obvious that the planned development of the towns and the principles of sound financial management are bound to be matters that any Secretary of State will take into account before making his decisions. The noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, suggested that there was something improper in the

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way the powers were drafted. He asked for precedents. My noble friend Lord Sandys referred him to powers of the Secretary of State to intervene in the way in which new town corporations behave, and to direct them to pay him money. No doubt the noble Lord will claim that the drafting here goes beyond this in that it does not explicitly set a limit to the sums which may be demanded. But legislation has to be read as part of the whole system of which it forms part. I cannot imagine the Public Accounts Committee of another place treating lightly either a Secretary of State, or his Accounting Officer, who did anything of the kind the noble Lord was suggesting.
I have taken time to be explicit about this. I will go further if requested to do so, but I hope that I have said sufficient to be able to sum up by saying that we see the words that I am now asking the House to delete as a fetter on an expanded programme of roll-over which could enable partial local interest to prevail over the national interest and which, ironically, could thus seriously hamper the growth of the third-generation towns, which I am sure is not what was intended. I beg to move.
Baroness STEDMAN: My Lords, our concern now, as at Committee stage, is that the payments demanded by the Secretary of State from the sales of assets should be devoted to completing the mark 2 and the mark 3 new towns and not go into Exchequer funds for other purposes; that before any instruction is given to development corporations to sell any of their assets the Secretary of State ought to be satisfied that such sales are in the interests of the new towns, specifically and generally; and that they will not interfere with the programme of planned development and will also be consistent with good financial management. This is why we put down the amendment which the Committee accepted a week ago.
Answering a question from one of my honourable friends in the other place as to the purpose for which the assets were to be sold, the Parliamentary Under-Secretary said that the sale of new town assets within the global sum of receipts would be taken into account to reduce the public sector borrowing rate. Again
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we come up against this manifestation of the obsession with the public sector borrowing rate. The new town development corporations do not want to see their assets sold as demanded or on demand, and they will have the support of the local people in their area. The New Towns Act says that the sales may be undertaken by development corporations,
"for securing the development of the new town in accordance with proposals approved by the Minister".
Selling off to reduce the public sector borrowing rate hardly seems to be in accordance with that. At the Committee stage I said that the proposed policy was liable to present individual development corporations with very grave difficulties, in that the rental income which they at present obtain from these assets which the Secretary of State can order them to sell is vital to the new town finances to enable them to pay off the debt that they have incurred as a consequence of their original development. Disposal may even mean that some development corporations may find themselves unable to complete the development of the new town, a responsibility with which they were specifically charged under the New Towns Act, and some of them may even get near to facing insolvency.
A method of increasing income by liquidating the assets could have disastrous consequences unless the Secretary of State looks at the current value and the cash flow that those assets will generate in future. Has there been any meaningful discussion or consultation about this with either the district councils or with the new town development corporations? The Town and Country Planning Institute are on record that the Government's policy at this time is in total contradiction with the concept of new towns; that it is liable to destroy the basis of sound planning and the management of the new towns; and that it is liable to prejudice the future ownership of new town assets. If this subsection is amended back to the original, then we are witnessing the grand closing down sale of new town assets—£120 million this year, £200 million next year. Since I believe the total value of the disposal assets is reckoned at something over £600 million, it means that half of those assets are to be sold off during this year and next. I think we have a right to know what ceiling the

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Secretary of State would put on the sale of assets and over what period he will be conducting his bargain sales.
These clauses are an attack on the whole principle and basis of new towns. The proposals alter the whole relationship between the Department of the Environment, the new town corporations and the Commission for New Towns. Until now that has been an extremely good relationship; it has been a productive relationship; it has been a constructive relationship. It was a Conservative Government which in 1969 passed the New Towns Act, which provided for the transfer of assets in mature new towns to a central body, the Commission for New Towns. But this body was specifically charged by the Act to maintain and enhance the value of the land and to have regard to the purpose for which the new town was developed, and to the convenience and welfare of the persons residing, working or carrying on a business in the new towns. The Labour Government in 1976 in their New Towns Act allowed for the handing over of the housing and the related assets to the local council in the older new towns, while retaining the profitable commercial and industrial assets for the time being in the hands of the commission for the new town. What is now proposed is a total deviation from both Acts.
Noble Lords who were not in the Committee when this clause was discussed should not vote to reverse that decision today unless they have read and considered the speech by my noble friend Lady Denington, who is abroad and cannot be with us today. She told the Committee about the diktat issued to the new towns chairmen in July last year and that there was no discussion with the Minister: he just demanded £100 million by March 1980 or there would be a moratorium on the letting of all contracts until that sum was realised.
The noble Baroness also made the point that if the Government really find it necessary to have these sales in order to raise money, then as much as possible should be saved for the nation. The clear way to do that, looking to the future, would be to sell leasehold and not freehold; but that does not appear in the Bill at all. From a quick perusal of this clause and the other clauses you might, if you tried
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very hard and were very persuasive, manage to get a lease for a bit longer than 99 years, but the instruction issued to new town corporations on 1st July 1980 was as follows:
"Ministers wish to see disposals take place on a basis which as far as possible frees development corporations from all further involvement in the property and which does not involve any form of retention of a share in equity. Disposals should therefore be on a freehold basis".
How do these proposals make it either possible or certain that the receipts of assets from mature new towns will be made available to complete the second and third generation new towns? The new towns now, with the approval of the Secretary of State, are free to sell and re-invest, to operate the roll-over principle. Why, also, that principle? Why not extend it in this Act so that as mature properties in an established new town are sold the proceeds can be used to help to finance another younger or newer new town?
There is a difference between the powers of the Commission for New Towns to dispose of assets as they think fit and for the Secretary of State to order disposals as he thinks fit. Now the Commission can at least dedicate the funds at its disposal to other new towns within its remit. This Bill carries no guarantee that the Secretary of State will do the same. If we could be certain that the funds resulting from the sales would be devoted to the developmental needs of other new towns, I think we could go along with it; but we cannot support these funds being diverted to reducing the public sector borrowing rate, or any other scheme devised by the Government. There is disquiet that among the Quangos likely to be wound up by the Secretary of State may be the Commission for New Towns. Who will then manage the commercial and industrial assets transferred to them by Corby, Stevenage, Harlow, Runcorn, Bracknell and so on? Or will the Secretary of State sell them all off because there will be no organisation to manage them?
Incidentally, who will look after and manage what is left—the parks, the gardens, the social amenities, even the sewage works and the refuse disposal plants—in those towns when the Commission is wound up? Also, if that is to happen, when is the legislation winding

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up the Commission to be presented? Will they also be winding up some of the other development corporations?—because if that is to be soon then it is wrong to present legislation at this time specifically naming the Commission for New Towns.
What happens in areas of high unemployment and little demand for sales of houses, as in Runcorn, where the district council has refused to take over the housing? The transition from the development corporations to the councils must be made easy. The Commission has an income of around £6 million a year from rents, and that can be ploughed back into new towns development. But if those assets are all sold to reduce the public sector borrowing rate, that income goes, because you can only sell once.
The noble Lord referred to the considerable investment in new towns. He reminded us that it was £336 million last year and something like £350 million this year. What have we got from it? The population of our new towns is now over 2 million. There are some 400,000 new dwellings and over 700 new schools. There are 17 million square feet of office space and, above all, there have been 1 million new jobs. What is needed is a clearer commitment by the Government to use the capital raised by sales to bring all the new towns, especially the third generation ones, to full completion. The assets must be conserved in the second and third generation towns and allowed to mature, because once the third generation towns are completed there will be a very useful property portfolio in existence which would then be available for other purposes. I have no confidence in this clause, as the noble Lord proposes to amend it. The amendment does not really cover the intention which he says, that is, of the Government to retain money to maintain, develop and expand the new towns; and I ask the House to reject the amendment.
Lord ROBERTHALL: My Lords, I spoke and voted against the Government on this amendment. My point was a much more general one. I took it that since the Bill has to give these powers to the Secretary of State, the relationship between him and the new commissions is
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not entirely between the creator and the creature. It seems to me that the form of words in Clause 122(1) is unfortunate, because it gives the Secretary of State power to lay down a sum which he can think up for himself. It is an unlimited power and it seems to me most unfortunate that the House is going to put this power on to the statute book. The addition of the words, which it is now proposed to take out again, had at least the merit that it put some limit to these otherwise unfettered powers of the Secretary of State.
The Minister has said that the Secretary of State proposes to put this money to the best possible use. He could not say it was all going to other new towns; but it seems to me most unfortunate that a Minister should be given these powers without any indication whatever in the clause that there is some limitation—unless it can be demonstrated that this is a case quite unlike any other case. For example, I would ask your Lordships just to imagine a clause like this in a Finance Act.
Lord MISHCON: My Lords, I wonder whether I might follow, as concisely as he did, the reasoning of the noble Lord, Lord Roberthall, and try to limit myself in a submission to the House that it would indeed be an irresponsible body of legislators that could possibly allow this amendment so that the Bill stood in the same way as it did before it was amended in Committee, after a very full discussion and after a Division.
My point is going to be a very narrow one and I ask your Lordships to be good enough to look at the actual wording of the clause we are now discussing. I utter a prayer, and I hope that Providence will answer it. It is that only those who listened to this argument will think it proper to vote upon it and that we shall not be faced in the Division Lobby with a number of people who will be voting, whichever way it may be, without having heard a word of the debate on this very vital clause. I am perfectly sure that any Whip present on the Government Bench will see that my prayer is duly heeded and observed.
May I refer to the wording of the clause that we are now dealing with, under the heading of New Towns? There is no

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preceding clause at all to which this one would have become subject. There is the bald wording that this House is asked to sanction at Report stage:
"The Secretary of State may direct a development corporation or the Commission to pay to him, on the date specified in the direction, such sum as is so specified".
So far, there is a touching faith in the Secretary of State having—and I hope that I do not say this in any mocking sense—great capabilities in regard to deciding what will be the limit of the sum which he is given such unqualified privilege to demand from new towns.
The only qualification put upon it, if qualification it be, as to amount, circumstances, date and whether it exceeds the assets of the new towns or does not exceed them, is in the following subsection, which, if the Minister's amendment is accepted, will merely state that before making what may be an impossible demand to fulfil, quite apart from its being unreasonable, there is a necessity to consult with the Commission or the corporation. All of us know what the word "consult" means. It means that you listen. If you want to, you hear; and, if you want to be, you are affected by what you have heard. But, having listened, you have completed your duty to consult.
At Committee stage, and prior to this Division, I limited myself to this narrow point. I asked the noble Lord, Lord Sandys, who was dealing with the matter at that time—and dealing with it with his usual capability—three questions. As the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate, was on the Front Bench, I ventured to ask whether he would kindly deal with the last two of my questions. He resisted the invitation. But the first question that I put was: is there any precedent to put before the House, so that the House can know whether such unlimited powers have been given to any Minister before, to make a direction that statutory body should pay a sum left entirely to his discretion and without any qualification at all?
The noble Lord, Lord Sandys—I thought with some ingenuity—first dismissed my question as being rhetorical. I have never uttered a less rhetorical question in my life. It was so direct that I asked for an answer and I said—I hope with
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fairness—that I understood that the noble Lord might want to receive some advice on the matter. I hoped that the advice could be given with some alacrity but, in order to allow him to get that advice, I would not press the question. In the end, it was decided that, so far as that question was concerned, the noble Lord, Lord Sandys, would very properly have an opportunity to write to me and to tell me what the precedent was. I must say this in sheer fairness. It took seven days for his department to find a precedent and I am now going to—
Lord SANDYS: My Lords, I think it is only fair to say that, of course, there were other matters concerning the department at the same time.
Lord MISHCON: My Lords, I can well understand that. I did not think that the department would be employed solely in answering my question. If that had been so, it would not have been a useful way for the department to employ itself. But there was some urgency about this. I must tell your Lordships that I should have thought, before any power such as this was written into a Bill, that the brief would already have been given to the Minister, saying: "This has had a precedent". I should have thought it would have been set out very clearly, so that I could have had an answer within 24 hours. But it does not matter. I only emphasise the fact that the department and the noble Lord, Lord Sandys, had every opportunity of looking up every precedent that there might be.
Your Lordships will be as mystified as I am when I tell you what is quoted as a precedent for this unqualified power of the Minister to direct a statutory corporation to pay up whatever sum the Minister decides to direct. This is the precedent which is quoted. With some pleasure, I believe, the department said that it had another analogy, because it arose from the new towns legislation and, indeed, the Act of 1965. Slowly do I read the precedent, but it is almost an insult to your Lordships' intelligence that I do so, because even if I read it at great speed anyone who thought that it was a precedent would, I think, be an extraordinary Member of your Lordships' House.

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It reads:
"Where it appears to the Minister "—
it is Section 45 of the 1965 Act—
"after consultation with the Treasury and the Commission, that the Commission have a surplus whether on capital or on revenue account after making allowance by way of transfer to reserve or otherwise for their future requirements (including any contributions that may be required to be made in any of their towns under section 36(3)(b) of this Act), the Commission shall, if the Minister after such consultation as aforesaid so directs, pay to the Minister such sum not exceeding the amount of that surplus as may be specified in the direction; and any sum received by the Minister under this subsection shall be paid into the Exchequer".
What a mockery to give that as a precedent, and what an offence to the intelligence of this House, let alone this humble Member of the House, to give such a reply in answer to the question: please, state what the precedent is for this unlimited, unqualified power of a Minister to direct a corporation to pay any sum that he specifies!
It is with some temerity that I now remind such of your Lordships as were here in Committee of the next two questions that I put. To those questions there has been no answer at all. The first was: what individual, let alone what lawyer or accountant, would ever advise anybody who had been put under some duty—forget whether or not it is a statutory duty—to agree to have imposed upon him such an unlimited requirement or liability? The third question which flowed from that was: what individual, what intelligent layman—forget whether he be lawyer or accountant—would ever advise any friend of his, let alone any relation, to become a responsible member of the board of any such statutory authority when there is a liability, without any limit or qualification, imposed in this way, so that, for all that person knew, he became a member of a corporation that was insolvent? I am not interested in any technical arguments as to whether new towns, because of some other statutory provisions, could ever land up, in their winding-up provisions, in the same way as a company could.
I said during the Committee stage that the arguments advanced by the Government in support of this clause, if there be no such qualification—and it is a very minor one that my noble friend Lady
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Stedman is suggesting which was passed by this House on a Division—would be laughable if they were not so tragic. They are tragic because, unless we are careful—I appeal to all parts of the House when I say this—this House of Lords, which has the duty imposed upon it of being a revising Chamber and not just the political agent of any political party, will be failing in its duty if it puts on to the statute book a power of this unlimited, unqualified nature, such as the Government now seek. I believe that whatever political party or no political party any Member of this House may belong to, we should not be a party to giving such dictatorial powers, vesting them in a Secretary of State and venting them upon public spirited people who are looking after our new towns.
4.12 p.m.
Lord BOYD-CARPENTER: My Lords, I am happy to think that I am apparently the answer to the prayer of the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon. Some time ago, if he will not mind my reminding the House, he began by indicating that it was his prayer that no one should vote for the Government on this amendment without having heard the debate. I have heard the debate so far, and unless somebody shakes my view I shall, if this matter is pressed to a Division, vote unhesitatingly with the Government.
I enjoyed as much as did anybody—I always do—the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon. He has the power of taking what is a quite simple, straightforward issue and building it up with great artistry and skill into a tremendous case—into, if he is opposing it, outrage upon the working of this House, upon the whole system of government, or, if he is arguing it the other way, playing it down into something of insignificance. I am sure that we always enjoy it, but perhaps we might come back to what is in essence an extraordinarily simple issue.
It is whether, in the event of a dispute between central Government and the corporations or the commission over a demand for the repayment of money, all of which of course began from public funds, the Minister should have a direct, unqualified power to order that recovery, or whether the statutory limitations upon his power so to do, contained in the

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clause as it now stands in the Bill, should prevail. It is as simple a question as that, and it is the very same question as those of your Lordships who have seen and enjoyed Mr. George Bernard Shaw's play "The Apple Cart" will remember is posed beautifully, where it is said, "When two men ride a horse, one must ride behind". In this case it is a question whether the Secretary of State or the new towns corporation should ride behind. I cannot help thinking that the noble Lord, Lord Roberthall, who was a very distinguished financial and economic adviser to Her Majesty's Government and his services as such are remembered most gratefully by very many of us, would have had little doubt that central Government, with the responsibility that they have for the handling of the British economy, must secure that in a case like this and in the handling of what is, I repeat, in origin public money, they have the last word.
The noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, brushed aside the public sector borrowing requirement. Many of us feel that it is crucial at this moment that the public sector borrowing requirement should be brought under control, and that if one is faced, as one may be, with having to take a hard decision between the happy and orderly completion of a new town's programme of development or the getting under control of the public sector borrowing requirement, in the circumstances of the day it is the latter which should prevail. For that reason, without hesitation on this amendment, although as my noble friend Lord Bellwin knows there has not even been hesitation to vote the other way on some of his clauses, I shall be with him in the Lobby unless the noble Baroness, with her habitual wisdom, decides at the end of the day to withdraw it.
Baroness STEDMAN: My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down may I remind him that we are not suggesting that the Secretary of State still does not have the last word. What was agreed to during the Committee stage was that the Secretary of State should satisfy himself that such payment does not undermine the programme of planned development of the town and is consistent with the principles of sound financial management. If he satisfies himself of that and
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then still says that he wants some money, part of our case goes.
Lord BOYD-CARPENTER: My Lords, I fully understand that. I am capable of understanding the words of the section. They are, as the noble Baroness says, perfectly clear. But what I think she has failed to apprehend is that if the facts are not such as to enable the Secretary of State so to satisfy himself he would be liable to be stopped in the courts, presumably by the procedure of injunction, and prevented from proceeding. The words which are sought to be taken out of the clause compel him, where the facts are such that the orderly development of the new town may be hampered, to be deprived of the power, and if he sought to exercise it he would be restrained by the courts.
Lord HOWIE of TROON: My Lords, it really would not be the end of the world if the Secretary of State were to be obliged to satisfy the courts or, in other words, public opinion at its best. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Boyd-Carpenter, was perfectly correct when he described this as a very simple issue, and a very simple issue it is. However, I do not think it is the simple issue which he described. The noble Lord described an extremely interesting simple issue but not quite the one we are dealing with here. The one we are dealing with here is what Clause 122(2) says. My noble friend on the Front Bench, Lord Mishcon, went into that at great length. I shall go into it at much shorter length, as befits a Back-Bencher on the extreme Back-Bench here.
It seems to me that the subsection as it stands has three characteristics. The first is that the Secretary of State shall consult. That is perfectly proper. The other two characteristics are that he shall consult within two limits. The first of these limits, although it is the second in the clause, is that whatever he consults about shall be consistent with the principles of sound financial management. I cannot see how the Government Front Bench can object to that being in the clause. They must regard that as desirable.
The second limit is that the Secretary of State shall satisfy himself that any payments made do not undermine the programme of planned development of the town. It is quite inconceivable that

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the Government Front Bench would wish the Secretary of State to undermine the programme of planned development of a new town. What they are objecting to, therefore, are two principles which limit the consultation, and they are two principles with which they must in fact agree. They cannot possibly object to them in any way. They cannot object to the Secretary of State satisfying himself that the programme is consistent with the principles of sound management, nor can they disagree that the Secretary of State should not undermine the planned development. So I think the amendment as proposed by the Minister is unnecessary. The characteristics at which the noble Lord, Lord Boyd-Carpenter, shakes his head and to which he drew attention are contained in and embraced by the process of consultation, but the additional words in the Bill give the public some extra protection, and an extra protection to which they are certainly entitled.
There is no need for me to go on at any great length. My two noble friends on the Front Bench have gone into the detail of this, but, stripped down to the bare essentials, the argument is much as I have stated it. I think the only sensible thing for the Minister of State to do—and he is a man who has shown great sympathy towards the Opposition in the course of this extremely lengthy Bill—is to withdraw his amendment and to agree to the objections which have been placed before us.
Lord BELLWIN: My Lords, perhaps I may try to pick up some of the points which have been made. First, I should like to say a sincere thank you to the noble Lord, Lord Boyd-Carpenter, for his support in this matter. He is always highly respected in your Lordships' House and even more highly appreciated, I may say, by this—not Minister of State, regrettably, but Parliamentary Under-Secretary.
Lord HOWIE of TROON: The noble Lord ought to be!
Several noble Lords: Hear, hear!
Lord BELLWIN: My Lords, I make no comment on that. I shall begin the wrong way round perhaps, but I know
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your Lordships will forgive me if I take the points as I wrote them down. First, there were points made by the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, who, as my noble friend Lord Boyd-Carpenter, said, is always so eloquent, so persuasive and so superb in his speeches. As for the content, however, I would ask for a much closer look at that. He made very much of the matter of precedents. "Where is the precedent", he asked, "that would give us the confidence to follow the Government's line?" I would ask him where is the precedent for investing £3,250 million in any one section of the community? I myself gave the precedents for that when I spoke about electricity and the Post Office. They were precedents. That is really what we are talking about and it is the thrust of the whole argument, which I shall come to in a moment when I have tried to cover some of the individual points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Stedman.
The noble Baroness asked what guarantee there was that this money would go back to the new towns. I thought that in my introduction to this amendment I had made clear—obviously I failed—the fact that the Government in the year just ended and in the year in which we are now working made a commitment of £700 million. I think that is an enormous commitment, and the very fact that we are now doing this and that we have said time and again that we have a commitment to the continuance of the new town movement and want to see the new generation of new towns becoming as successful as, if not more successful than, the present generation of new towns, is our guarantee. If the noble Baroness had been able to come along and say: "You are reducing the investment in the new towns", she would have a much stronger case; but I made no commitments and I was at pains not to do so in that sense because no one can say what money will be available, but we believe in the new generation of new towns and everything we are doing shows that belief.
As my noble friend LordBoyd-Carpenter said, this whole debate is about the right and whether the Government have the right to look at public money which has been invested and to say: "We need to reshuffle that around", or, as the Labour

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Government proposed, to roll it over. Do we have a right, as a Government, to say that certain parts of the new towns are requiring so much more and certain of older generation are requiring so much less, or is it wrong that we should shuffle this around or even that it should go into a central kitty and that the options should be there for the Government?
I believe that this is fundamental. I believe it is not wrong and I believe in it as deeply as anything else that we are doing. Will your Lordships believe that I have spoken at this Dispatch Box in the last 15 or 16 months over 1,000 times and I have moved many amendments. It has to be said, my Lords, that for some of them one has a greater "feel" than for others, if I may put it that way, but I believe sincerely that not one case I have argued has been stronger than this one. We are asking at the end, "What are we talking about?" We believe in the new towns, we are ploughing in massive sums of money and, if it is any help, I will repeat now that we believe in the future of the new towns which are coming on stream and we shall have to plough funds into those. The extent of that no one can expect me to say, but we believe it is right that the central Government which in the first place has ploughed in the £3,250 million should have some say in the redeployment of it. That is what this debate is about and, when we speak about consulting and such things, with respect, my Lords, they are all possible sources of delay and frustration. They sound so innocent on their own, they sound so logical and fair, but, when we look carefully at the implications of them all and what they can lead to, we see why any Government which need the freedom to function (and my goodness! we need it today more than ever), have to say that all these things by themselves may be right but in the context of what we need to achieve they do not stand up. That is why we feel very strongly that we must have this amendment, and I hope your Lordships will support it.
Lord HOWIE of TROON: My Lords, before the noble Lord whom I promoted in error, but deservedly, sits down, would he explain to me as an open-minded, rebellious Back-Bencher how it comes about that he actually needs the words which he proposes to leave out, when in
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fact they are contained quite clearly within the word "consult" which he wishes to leave in? How will he be worse off if he takes these words out?
Lord BELLWIN: My Lords, I thought that that was the last point that I touched upon. In practice there is always talk; that is ongoing. Anyone who has been involved in Government knows that there are always discussions and commissions. There are the new town corporations and it is an ongoing process. One does not suddenly say: "Stop! Shall we now go and see this new town?" There is consultation all the time with the regional officers, and so on. But if we write on the face of the Bill a requirement like this, it opens up a whole series of opportunities for those who may not be as anxious as is the noble Lord, or even in agreement with the philosophy expressed. It gives many opportunities for delays and frustrations, for going to the courts, and so on; and that we cannot have.
Lord MISHCON: My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, I wonder whether, with his great courtesy, he could tell the House whether he now agrees, whatever be the amount invested in new towns, that there is no precedent known to his department for this unlimited, unqualified power? My second question is this: does he also admit that, much though it be his wish that the monies should be ploughed back into new towns, there is not a word in the Bill to say that that has to take place?
Lord BELLWIN: My Lords, I thought I had covered the point of precedent. When we look at the enormity—
Lord MISHCON: My Lords, that is no answer.
Lord BELLWIN: My Lords, it is an answer which I think is a fair one. I am sorry if I did not sound fair to the noble Lord—I think I often do but perhaps on this occasion I did not. Will the noble Lord perhaps repeat his other point?
Lord MISHCON: My Lords, I can well understand that the noble Lord did not take on board my second point. Does he admit that, much though it be his desire and the present intention of his

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Government to plough the money back into new towns, there is not a word in this Bill which makes it necessary for the Government so to do?
Lord BELLWIN: My Lords, that, indeed, was also the point touched on by the noble Baroness when she said, "What guarantee do we have?" Of course the noble Lord is right; on the face of the Bill there is nothing; but the guarantee is the commitment of the Government to the future of new towns. On the face of the Bill, no; but I believe the Government must have the opportunity and must be able to function in this way, which even the Labour Government were seeking to do originally in their roll-over proposals.
Lord ROBERTHALL: My Lords, may I—
Lord SANDYS: My Lords, the noble Lord has spoken already on this amendment. He has not chosen to use the device, "Before the noble Lord sits down". Therefore, I regret to say he is out of order.
The Earl of PERTH: My Lords, perhaps I may say a word on this. Having listened to all the arguments on both sides, it seems to me that in general the Government must have the right to decide what should be done in the way of demanding money and so forth from whatever the source. But I think they go too far in not giving any kind of guidance on what will be the form of consultation. It is all very well for the noble Lord, Lord Bellwin, to say, "For the next two years it is all right. You must believe in us". Of course, these are things we are bound to take into account. But that is all an act of faith. I feel, on the other hand, that the amendment brought in at the Committee stage goes too far in that it binds the Government in a way which would be very awkward, if for one reason or another they wanted to do certain things and were then challenged in the courts by the new town which felt it had a right to go on with its programme regardless. You can always argue these things in the courts.
I wonder whether it would not be possible at Third Reading for the noble
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Lord, Lord Bellwin, to introduce some words which would indicate the sort of matters that the Secretary of State would take into account in his consultation, without binding him absolutely to act. I think this amendment goes too far because in the end there is, or could be, a recourse to the court. If, on the other hand, the noble Lord could give us some sort of idea of the policy that would be taken into account in consultation, I think it would help. At this moment we see nothing; all we are depending upon is the good faith of the Secretary of State to ensure that these things will not upset the new town or the commission. It would be better if there were some sort of wording which would indicate what form the consultation would take.
While in this particular instance I think it would perhaps be unwise to resist the amendment that the noble Lord, Lord Bellwin, has moved, at the same time it would be very much easier for a lot of us to support him if we knew that at Third Reading some sentence would be introduced to show what form the consultation would take.
Viscount SIMON: My Lords, if I may intervene for just a very few minutes—
Lord SANDYS: My Lords, if I may say so, my noble friend the Minister has summed up on a Motion, because we are now on Report. If I may quote the Companion to Standing Orders, page 87, it says this:
"It is considered undesirable for Lords to continue the debate on a Motion or an Unstarred Question after the Government's reply has been given save for questions to the Minister before he sits down".
My noble friend has been extremely tolerant over this, and I think we should reach a conclusion.
Lord FOOT: My Lords, may I make a comment about that? It seems to me extraordinary, because if that is right, then the Minister, if he likes to do so, can stand up when the debate has proceeded only a little while and thereby effectively terminate the debate. What is happening here today, in my submission, is a pretty shabby business altogether. I was present on the previous occasion when we discussed this question in Committee. We had then a very full debate, a much fuller

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debate than we have had here this afternoon; we had a debate before a much fuller House than we have here this afternoon—a fuller Committee or assembly. On that occasion, with clear deliberation, on a vote, one of the biggest votes which we have had in this House or in Committee for a long time, the Government were defeated.
What is at issue here is not only the merits or otherwise of this amendment but, in my submission, what are the proper duties of this House as a revising Chamber? If, after due consideration in a Committee of the Whole House, an amendment is carried against the Government, is it right that the Government should come back at Report stage and try to reverse that decision, and, as we must assume, bring in, to carry the Division in their favour, people who have not heard the debate on this occasion or have not heard the debate on the previous occasion? I question whether the Government are well advised to play ducks and drakes with this House as they are doing this afternoon.
4.35 p.m.
Lord BELLWIN: My Lords, on a point of correction, may I simply say this. In the first place, I did not seek to stand up in the middle of the debate and end it; I waited for over an hour listening to many people speak. Secondly, it is not my way to seek to take advantage procedurally in any way. I do not think anyone in your Lordships' House would say that of me; I do not think the noble Lord, Lord Foot, would say that. Thirdly, as to his point of whether it is right for the Government to bring something back, we have had in this Report stage I do not know how many—certainly it is in double figures—occasions on which issues, which were defeated by the Government at Committee stage, have been brought back in the identical form and discussed again, without the right of people here now to know what went on at that time. The Government have made no comment as to that. My noble friend made an observation, but the Government made no comment and no objection at all. Nor do I; I see nothing wrong there.
May I remind the noble Lord of this. It is true there was a substantial vote;
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there was a majority of three. All the other decisions which noble Lords opposite are seeking to reverse, to which I did not and do not object, were decided by far more than that. With respect, I think we have had two very good runs at this; we have been going for perhaps an hour and a half. The last thing I want to do is to object to anyone speaking, but goodness me, we are going to be here until a very late hour; we have so much business. The Front Benches and everyone have had their chances. I think my noble friend Lord Sandys is right.
Lord FOOT: My Lords—
Several noble Lords: Order, order!
Lord FOOT: My Lords, that was an interruption of what I was saying. Before the noble Lord, Lord Sandys, got up just now in order to bring this debate to an end, my noble friend Lord Simon had made two or three attempts to speak. There has not been any intervention in this particular debate from these Benches. Although my noble friend Lord Simon attempted to get up to speak on our behalf, he was interrupted and prevented from doing so by the noble Lord, Lord Sandys. I only say this in conclusion. I am not discussing the merits of this matter one way or another. But I will say this. If, after full debate in Committee in this House, when all the arguments have been deployed the Government is defeated, I would have thought that the proper and sensible thing for them to do, if they are so embarrassed by the amendment which has been carried, would be to take the matter up in the other place when it goes back there, and not bring it up again in this House. That is all I want to say about that matter. I suggest that it is improper that there should not be a full debate, especially upon a matter on which the verdict went against the Government on the earlier occasion.
Lord DENHAM: My Lords, perhaps I may break in at this interval. The noble Lord, Lord Foot, is, of course, raising two separate points and he is quite entitled to do so because they are, so to speak, two points of order. The first of them is about his noble friend, who, of course, nobody in your Lordships' House would wish to prevent from speak-

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ing on these matters. But, it is generally accepted that, except during Committee stage, any noble Lord who wishes to speak on a Motion such as this should do so before the Minister replies and not afterwards, save, for example, asking a question or making a point before the noble Lord sits down. Otherwise, it makes the Minister—whichever party happens to be in power—get up again and again and again. It is the generally accepted practice of the House—and my noble friend Lord Sandys has read out the relevant part of the Companion to Standing Orders—that the debate should take place; any noble Lord who wishes to speak should do so, and then the Minister should reply. Of course, the proposer of the amendment then has the right of reply, but that should be the end of the matter.
As regards reversing at Report stage an opinion of the House at Committee stage, I am advised that it is perfectly within the rules of order of the House, if the House so wishes. Of course, there is another matter as regards whether the clause shall stand part on which the Companion to Standing Orders has something separate to say. However, as regards an amendment, it is not against the rules or traditions of the House if the House should decide to do it.
Lord HOWIE of TROON: My Lords, I hesitate to lengthen this particular part of the discussion, but I should like, first, to acquit the Minister of any discourtesy to the House at all. I think that he has shown the greatest willingness to take part in the debates as regards this measure and any others with which he has been concerned in the period in which I have known him. I do not think that there is any question of the situation being otherwise.
But, I have spent some while as a Whip in the other place and I should like to say just a word of advice to the Whip. The Whip should be applied with the lightest and gentlest touch possible—something that I did not realise when I started life as a Whip, but which I learnt during my years in that role. I would be rather inclined to say that, if there were the slightest appearance of a situation in which one of the Opposition Front Bench speakers—albeit from a minor, though
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not unimportant party—wishes to contribute to a debate, even in the circumstances which we have today, he should be allowed to do so.
Although there are difficulties about the Minister speaking over and over again, looking at the Front Bench today there is no shortage of Ministers present and every one of them is able. There is no reason why one of them should not stand up at the end and reply after the noble Viscount on the Liberal Front Bench has spoken. I think that the best way of proceeding—if I may give the advice of an old and gnarled Whip—is to let the Liberals have their say, let someone else reply and then we can get on with the business and the Government and all of us will be well satisfied.
Baroness STEDMAN: My Lords, I am sure that from this side of the House we accept the ruling of the Government Chief Whip, but other speakers have been quite correct — the noble Viscount tried to get in several times. He was unlucky, but I think that the House might be satisfied if the noble Viscount were allowed to make his points.
Lord DENHAM: My Lords, of course, if the noble Viscountwished to speak before my noble friend got up to give his reply and was unable to do so, then that is a different matter. I think that all of my noble friends in this Government—and the same applied to noble Lords opposite when they occupied this side of the House—try to look round before they make their reply, to see whether any noble Lord wishes to speak; but sometimes it is not possible. So if the noble Viscount was, in fact, trying to get up before my noble friend started, then perhaps the House would wish to hear him.
Several Noble Lords: Hear, hear!
Viscount SIMON: My Lords, I am very much obliged to the noble Lord. I should like to raise a question that has been going through my mind ever since I heard the opening speech of the noble Lord in charge of the Bill—namely, if, as he says, the Government are completely committed to the interests of the new towns, why does he object to the words which he wants to remove? It seems to me that he has said, almost in other

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words, that these are the considerations that the Secretary of State would bear in mind. So what is the objection to leaving them there?
Lord BELLWIN: My Lords, if I may speak by leave of the House yet again, I think that I have covered this point very carefully. I tried to do so when I responded before by saying that the objections are that they throw up so many possibilities
—I think even beyond what noble Lords intended when they moved the amendment previously—by way of delays, frustrations and so on. I just do not think that they should be in the Bill.
4.46 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 148A) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 114; Not-Contents, 82.

CONTENTS

Airey of Abingdon, B.

Ferrers, E.

Netherthorpe, L.

Alexander of Tunis, E.

Ferrier, L.

Newall, L.

Alport, L.

Forester, L.

Norfolk, D.

Avon, E.

Fortescue, E.

Northchurch, B.

Bellwin, L.

Fraser of Kilmorack, L.

Nugent of Guildford, L.

Belstead, L.

Freyberg, L.

Onslow, E.

Berkeley, B.

Gage, V.

Orr-Ewing, L.

Bessborough, E.

Gainford, L.

Perth, E.

Boyd of Merton, V.

Gisborough, L.

Redmayne, L.

Boyd-Carpenter, L.

Glenkinglas, L.

Renton, L.

Broadbridge, L.

Gormanston, V.

Rochdale, V.

Caithness, E.

Gowrie, E.

Romney, E.

Campbell of Croy, L.

Grimthorpe, L.

St. Aldwyn, E.

Cathcart, E.

Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, L. (L. Chancellor.)

St. Davids, V.

Clwyd, L.

Sandys, L. [Teller.]

Cockfield, L.

Halsbury, E.

Seebohm, L.

Cork and Orrery, E.

Henley, L.

Sempill, Ly.

Craigavon, V.

Hylton-Foster, B.

Skelmersdale, L.

Craigmyle, L.

Inglewood, L.

Slim, V.

Craigton, L.

Keyes, L.

Soames, L. (L. President.)

Crathorne, L.

Kimberley, E.

Somers, L.

Croft, L.

Kinnaird, L.

Stanley of Alderley, L.

Cullen of Ashbourne, L.

Knutsford, V.

Strathclyde, L.

Davidson, V.

Lauderdale, E.

Strathcona and Mount Royal, L.

De Freyne, L.

Lindsey and Abingdon, E.

Strathspey, L.

De La Warr, E.

Long, V.

Swinfen, L.

De L'Isle, V.

Lucas of Chilworth, L.

Teviot, L.

Denham, L. [Teller.]

Lyell, L.

Tranmire, L.

Digby, L.

McAlpine of Moffat, L.

Trefgarne, L.

Dormer, L.

McFadzean, L.

Trenchard, V.

Drumalbyn, L.

Macleod of Borve, B.

Trumpington, B.

Duncan-Sandys, L.

Mancroft, L.

Vaux of Harrowden, L.

Dundonald, E.

Mansfield, E.

Vickers, B.

Ebbisham, L.

Marley, L.

Vivian, L.

Eccles, V.

Morris, L.

Westbury, L.

Ellenborough, L.

Mowbray and Stourton, L.

Willoughby de Broke, L.

Elliot of Harwood, B.

Moyne, L.

Wolverton, L.

Elton, L.

Murton of Lindisfarne, L.

Young, B.

Falkland, V.

NOT-CONTENTS

Airedale, L.

Boston of Faversham, L.

Fisher of Rednal, B.

Amherst, E.

Brockway, L.

Foot, L.

Ampthill, L.

Brooks of Tremorfa, L.

Gaitskell, B.

Ardwick, L.

Bruce of Donington, L.

Galpern, L.

Avebury, L.

Collison, L.

Gardiner, L.

Aylestone, L.

Cooper of Stockton Heath, L.

Gordon-Walker, L.

Balogh, L.

Cudlipp, L.

Gore-Booth, L.

Beswick, L.

David, B.

Gosford, E.

Birk, B.

Davies of Penrhys, L.

Greenwood of Rossendale, L.

Blease, L.

Diamond, L.

Gregson, L.

Blyton, L.

Elwyn-Jones, L.

Grey, E.

Boothby, L.

Evans of Hungershall, L.

Hale, L.

Hampton, L.

Meston, L.

Stedman, B.

Hanworth, V.

Mishcon, L.

Stewart of Alvechurch, B.

Hatch of Lusby, L.

Noel-Baker, L.

Stewart of Fulham, L.

Hayter, L.

Oram, L.

Stone, L.

Henderson, L.

Paget of Northampton, L.

Strabolgi, L.

Howie of Troon, L.

Peart, L.

Strauss, L.

Jacques, L.

Phillips, B.

Taylor of Blackburn, L.

Kaldor, L.

Plant, L.

Taylor of Mansfield, L.

Kilbracken, L.

Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L. [Teller.]

Underhill, L.

Kilmarnock, L.

Wall, L.

Leatherland, L.

Roberthall, L.

Wallace of Coslany, L.

Listowel, E.

Rochester, L.

Wells-Pestell, L.

Llewelyn-Davies of Hastoe, B. [Teller.]

Ross of Marnock, L.

Whaddon, L.

Rugby, L.

White, B.

Lloyd of Kilgerran, L.

Simon, V.

Wilson of Langside, L.

Longford, E.

Stamp, L.

Wootton of Abinger, B.

Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.
4.55 p.m.
Lord ROSS of MARNOCK Lord ROSS of MARNOCK moved Amendment No. 149:
Page 108, line 24, leave out subsection (7) and Insert—
("(7) This section shall not apply to Scotland.").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, with Amendment No. 149 I should like to take Amendments Nos. 150, 151, 153, 154 and 155, because the effect of Amendment No. 149 is to leave Scotland out of Clause 122, and the effect of the other amendments is to leave Scotland out of this whole part of the Bill. Why do I suggest that Scotland should be left out? First, the Scottish new towns are different. They are in a different part of the world, a part of the world that is pretty hard to hit at present by unemployment, and the last thing we want to do is to stifle the work that these new towns are doing. They have been a considerable success and a considerable hope in difficult areas.
There are five new towns, four of which are in the Central belt, and three of those four are in West Central Scotland, which is probably hardest hit by unemployment at the present time. The other is, of course, Glenrothes, which was built to absorb a considerable number of those displaced in the mining industry. When one looks at the progress of these new towns one sees that one cannot compare them with the English new towns. Some of them are relatively young. There is only one that is anywhere near a surplus, which I think is East Kilbride, which is the oldest. These are draconian powers, so much so that the noble Lord, Lord Boyd-Carpenter, did not want any qualifications that might be challenged in court. With
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no qualifications they become even more draconian—full, unfettered powers given not only to the Secretary of State for the Environment but also to the Secretary of State for Scotland. He can direct them to pay any sum he wants, and he will tell them when to pay. What has been mentioned by no one so far is that, if they do not pay it, it becomes a debt, chargeable at a certain rate of interest. Indeed, he also takes a further power to tell them how they can dispose of the land, and when.
We have heard important sums of money mentioned by the Parliamentary Secretary—I believe that is what he said he was, although I shall direct my attention to a Minister of State. The sum of £320 million was mentioned. What is the sum at stake in Scotland? It may be suggested that this is a necessarily heavy hammer to direct that the disposal of assets should raise £320 million in the new towns in England and Wales; but in Scotland the sum at stake is £5 million. This was the sum laid down to be raised in 1979–80. One can recollect that when that announcement was made and when discussions took place with the new towns they were given six months and it was thought that a reasonable sum was £5 million. Of course, they did not get £5 million; I think they got £1·5 million. So there was another meeting. What is it that is laid down for the Scottish new towns at present?—not that they have to find the £5 million in the next year. Oh, no; they are being encouraged to do the best they can and they have to complete the disposals to reach the £5 million in 1980–81. Therefore, what was to take six months, according to the reasonableness of the Government, is now being spread over about two and a half years.
Is it necessary to take these powers in relation to the Scottish new towns in order to raise that sum of money? This is really a sledgehammer to crack a nut. It is not that the Secretary of State has not got any powers at the present time; he has. He has powers directly within the Bill, and he has the influence that he bears as the creator of the new towns. He creates the authority; he appoints the chairman. Indeed, chairmen are usually very careful in respect of how they behave towards those who are their masters.
I asked a question about the Scottish new towns, and I am glad to say that I got a very good and full answer from the noble Lord, Lord Sandys. He was not speaking as a Whip then but I presume as a Government Minister when he wrote to me, although I dare say that he discussed the matter fully with the Secretary of State for Scotland, the Minister of State and all the other Under-Secretaries. Here is what I found out. From Scotland, it is not a sum from each individual development corporation, it is a collective sum. So they all meet together cosily, probably in St. Andrew's House. The first time of course they were told £5 million.
"When the disposals programme was first introduced, discussions were held with the General Managers and Chairmen … about the collective contribution they could make. Taking account of the stage of development of the towns and of the depressed state of the market in Scotland",—
It has not become any less depressed since they had these discussions—
"it was decided that no more than £5 million worth of assets should be placed on the market in 1979–80.
"A total of £1·5 million was raised in 1979/80 with the remainder of the £5 million to be found as soon as possible. However, it is now evident that to expect the new towns "—
that is, in Scotland—
"to raise the balance this year could possibly impair their programmes of industrial and commercial development. A flexible attitude is therefore being taken, but the new towns are being encouraged to contribute as much as possible towards the £5 million total this year and definitely to achieve it in 1981/82".
This was supposed to be a reassurance to me that the Government were not being dictatorial. Of course they are not being so in this. Using the powers as they are, they are being reasonable. They are meeting them. But does it not make a nonsense of the suggestion that we must take these powers? In Scotland
582
they are evidently not going to use them., and here once again there is this tidying-up process, applying something to Scotland which is quite unnecessary. I see a former Under-Secretary of State for Scotland on the Benches there. I plagued his life on one occasion on a Town and Country Planning Bill when they did the same silly thing that they are doing here. They mixed Scotland up with England, and when all the other debates continued about England another Member, Mr. George Willis, and I got up and carried on a separate debate on Scotland. I remember his telling us at that time that the circumstances for Scotland were purely academic. They were not purely academic by the time the Bill was on the statute book and affected the property markets and prices in Scotland.
I think he will agree with me that it is not the wisest thing to get Scotland mixed up in an English Bill. We have a whole corpus of legislation on Scottish local government entirely different from that in England. The same is true of land. The same is true of town and country planning. But here we have it spattered through these clauses. I do not know whether noble Lords appreciate this. I took just a quick note as I sat here that in the 40 clauses from about No. 64 to No. 104 only three or four apply to Scotland. In this particular section on new towns I think there are seven clauses and only two of them apply to Scotland.
Would it not be tidier to take Scotland out, and if we need legislation let us have Scottish legislation? That has always been the hope of every other Secretary of State for Scotland. If any of us slipped up, then that former Secretary of State, or the Leader of the Scottish Opposition, was up and pleading the case of the Law Society and everybody else and saying that it was monstrous. It is really monstrous here because it is not needed for Scotland. But the danger is that if it is there it will be used.
Suppose it had been used in this first instance of the £5 million. It would have required to be found. If it had not been found it would have been construed as a debt, and interest paid by the Scottish new towns. This is utter nonsense. In the present economic situation in respect of the whole country this clause is

583
bad enough, but in respect of Scotland it does not make any sense at all. The fact that it has not been used and the Government are not going to use it suggests to me, "Let us be tidy about it. Let us take Scotland out of all the other clauses in this Part XV."
I hope that the Government are prepared to listen to reason. It is not going to destroy their Bill. It is just taking another two clauses that apply to Scotland at the moment, and that need not apply to Scotland, and adding them to the over 100 other clauses of this Bill which do not apply to Scotland. It is not justified by the circumstances of the new towns or their development. It is not justified by the economy of Scotland. It is not justified by the figures which have been given by the noble Lord, Lord Sandys. May I thank him very much for the reply, because I think it makes my case?
No doubt the Minister of State will get up and say that this shows how flexible the Government are. Flexible? "You cannae take the breeks offa Highland man." In other words, the £5 million was not there. It did not make any sense to try to get it. But if they are going to take this clause and apply it, it is not the breeks they are going to take off the Highland man, it is the kilt. My Lords, I beg to move.
Lord BOOTHBY: My Lords, as one who sat for a Scottish constituency for 34 years, I should just like to add one sentence to what the noble Lord, Lord Ross of Marnock, has said. I agree with every word he said. I have seldom heard more sense talked in this House in so short a time. There is absolutely no reason for putting Scotland into this Bill and many reasons for keeping it out. I shall take a lot of convincing to the contrary.
Lord HOWIE of TROON: My Lords, I shall be very brief indeed. I should like to support my noble friend Lord Ross of Marnock in this respect, and to remind the Government of one word only—and that word is "tact". It is the only word that matters here. Over a number of years we had differences of opinion between England and Scotland over the method of devolution. Some at least
584
of the underlying causes of that dispute were concerned with this lack of tact; the idea that Scottish matters should be dealt with merely by tacking on a Scottish provision to what was essentially an English and Welsh Bill. It is a handy and convenient way of doing things no doubt for this House and for another place, but it is not necessarily a sensible and tactful way of dealing with the United Kingdom.
My noble friend Lord Ross is quite right when he says that the correct way to go about this kind of business is to produce a Scottish Bill which deals with the peculiarities and the particularities of Scotland and deals with them separately. My noble friend lives in Scotland and he has a close association with the Scottish people. I have lived in England for a long time, but neither he nor I have any animus against the English. We merely remind you that many of the Scots are irked by this kind of tactlessness. Especially when it is a tactlessness which can be readily and easily avoided. It ought to be avoided. I think that the House would be well advised to take my noble friend's advice, and the advice of the noble Lord, Lord Boothby, with his unrivalled experience of United Kingdom and Scottish affairs, and leave this out. If the precise provisions must be dealt with, let us deal with them later in a Scottish Bill, gathering together all the minor and extraneous bits and pieces of this vast measure which deal particularly with Scotland. Let us leave England to the English, Wales to the Welsh, and Scotland to the Scots.
5.10 p.m.
The MINISTER of STATE, SCOTTISH OFFICE (The Earl of Mansfield): My Lords, the compass of this debate is considerably narrower than most of the subjects we have discussed across the Dispatch Box so far as the noble Lord, Lord Ross, and I are concerned. This is a United Kingdom Bill, we are all citizens of the United Kingdom and we are debating this matter in the Parliament of the United Kingdom. These provisions give effect to the general policy of the Government which is, for new towns, exactly the same for Scotland as it is for England. There are two objects of the exercise, first to ensure that it is open to the Secretary of State to direct the

585
development corporations to realise assets which can be made available to the Exchequer for new town or other purposes, and secondly to ensure that the development corporations have clear-cut powers to dispose of land for that purpose. Those are the objects of these clauses, no more and no less.
Two points have emerged in this debate. The first is whether this power to the Secretary of State should be put in a United Kingdom Bill as opposed to forming the subject of separate legislation applying only to Scotland. I hope from what I have said that both the noble Lords, Lord Boothby and Lord Howie of Troon, may perhaps conclude that merely to extend to Scotland what is part of the general policy of the United Kingdom does not need separate legislation to achieve its purpose. Parliament is short of time. The legislative programme, whichever party is in power, is always appallingly congested and your Lordships, with great assiduity, remain true to their task night after night, particularly after the summer holidays, to get the legislative programme of the Government of the day through to completion. I cannot believe that we have to burden Parliament with a Scottish Bill to say precisely the same in effect as is said in a United Kingdom Bill because we wish, in the words of the noble Lord, Lord Howie, to show tact to the Scots. I wonder if, on reflection, he really means that?
Lord HOWIE of TROON: I do indeed, my Lords.
The Earl of MANSFIELD: Secondly, my Lords, leaving aside the question of where the legislation takes place—in the sense whether it is in the same Bill or in two different Bills—is there any reason that the noble Lord, Lord Ross, adduced why Scottish new towns should be exempted from the legislation which will affect the English? The noble Lord read out details of a letter which my noble friend Lord Sandys had sent him, and as he himself remarked, it shows that the Government are exhibiting a thoroughly flexible attitude in the matter.
It is right that that should happen because the Scottish new towns are slightly different in that they are not so advanced in their stages of development compared with the English new towns in
586
the South-East, which are putting up most of the money. That is why the Scottish new towns have been asked to provide only £5 million; I say "only" not in a pejorative sense but merely by comparison. In 1979–80 they realised £1½, million, as the noble Lord, Lord Ross, said, and they are expected to raise the balance as soon as possible. In fact, only East Kilbride has so far reached a surplus on its general revenue account, but all five Scottish new towns are expected to contribute to relieve the burden presently falling on the Exchequer. The sums realised are not recovered but are offset against the borrowing requirements of the individual towns.
The policy of the Government may be disagreeable to noble Lords opposite, and I should be the last to deny them their perfectly genuinely held point of view, but no reason has emerged in this debate from the obviously deeply held convictions of the noble Lord, Lord Ross, why the Scottish new towns in some say should be exempted from the burden which is falling on all the other new towns that are the subject of the Bill. In the circumstances, I can only ask the noble Lord to reflect and possibly to withdraw the amendment.
Lord ROSS of MARNOCK: My Lords, I welcome the tone of the Minister's speech but I cannot agree with it. Everything that has happened in relation to getting the £5 million from the Scottish new towns shows that this power is unnecessary, even from the attitude of the Scottish Office and of the new towns. I do not know where the new towns are in England and Wales, but I know there is not a new town in Scotland further away than two hours' drive from the Scottish Office. In fact, if they want to meet in Glasgow they can all he there within an hour, which is indeed what happens. The Secretary of State know the people concerned because he appoints them. Scotland is a convenient administrative unit and, in respect of these new towns, there has been no trouble over getting agreement.
I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Bellwin, said there might be trouble with some of the English new towns, so the Government would have their way and must therefore have this power. I see the noble Lord questioning that, but I assure him he said it;

587
I am very good at making notes when people are speaking. There is no such trouble, there is no such fear and there is no new town in the centre of Dundee which will cause nightmares for the Minister of State. He must admit that there has been agreement and come-and-go all along the line, so this power will not be used. Indeed, it is an insult to Parliament to put in a power which will not be used.
The noble Earl, Lord Mansfield, talked about United Kingdom legislation. I do not know for how long he has been concerned with Scottish legislation as part of United Kingdom legislation; certain things are done and others are not. But suppose it were right to include certain things in respect of Scotland in this "mogre" of a Bill. I assure him that to save the time of Parliament this should not have been included. Bills should be as short as possible, and this Bill would have been that much shorter and the valuable speeches we have heard today would not have been delivered if this power had not been included; therefore,
we should have saved this amount of parliamentary time, which is what the noble Earl wants. Legislation should not contain unnecessary provisions, and this one is unnecessary. It will never be used, so why put it in?
I see on the Benches opposite another former Secretary of State. I am sure he will agree with me. There is plenty of time to say "No" to certain people, and to say, "We are not going to do it in Scotland". It is time the Scottish Office got up on their hind legs and said "No" to unnecessary legislation. As my noble friend Lord Howie of Troon said, it is quite offensive at times to the people of Scotland to be dragged along in this kind of thing just for the sake of national tidiness. I am afraid that I have to insist on this one, because what the Government propose really is quite unnecessary.
5.20 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 149) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 60; Not-Contents, 119.

CONTENTS

Ardwick, L.

Galpern, L.

Peart, L.

Aylestone, L.

Gardiner, L.

Phillips, B.

Balogh, L.

Gosford, E.

Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L. [Teller.]

Beswick, L.

Greenwood of Rossendale, L.

Blease, L.

Gregson, L.

Ross of Marnock, L.

Blyton, L.

Hale, L.

Stedman, B. [Teller.]

Boothby, L.

Hatch of Lusby, L.

Stewart of Alvechurch, B.

Boston of Faversham, L.

Henderson, L.

Stewart of Fulham, L.

Brockway, L.

Houghton of Sowerby, L.

Stone, L.

Brooks of Tremorfa, L.

Howie of Troon, L.

Strabolgi, L.

Bruce of Donington, L.

Jacques, L.

Strauss, L.

Collison, L.

Jeger, B.

Taylor of Blackburn, L.

Cooper of Stockton Heath, L.

Kaldor, L.

Taylor of Mansfield, L.

Crowther-Hunt, L.

Kilmarnock, L.

Underhill, L.

Cudlipp, L.

Leatherland, L.

Wall, L.

David, B.

Llewelyn-Davies of Hastoe, B.

Wallace of Coslany, L.

Davies of Penrhys, L.

Lovell-Davis, L.

Wells-Pestell, L.

Diamond, L.

Mishcon, L.

Whaddon, L.

Elwyn-Jones, L.

Noel-Baker, L.

White, B.

Fisher of Rednal, B.

Oram, L.

Wootton of Abinger, B.

Gaitskell, B.

NOT-CONTENTS

Ailesbury, M.

Boyd-Carpenter, L.

Craigmyle, L.

Airedale, L.

Broadbridge, L.

Craigton, L.

Airey of Abingdon, B.

Burton, L.

Crathorne, L.

Alport, L.

Caccia, L.

Croft, L.

Ampthill, L.

Caithness, E.

Cullen of Ashbourne, L.

Avon, E.

Campbell of Croy, L.

Davidson, V.

Bellwin, L.

Cathcart, E.

De Freyne, L.

Belstead, L.

Cockfield, L.

De La Warr, E.

Berkeley, B.

Colville of Culross, V.

De L'Isle, V.

Bessborough, E.

Cork and Orrery, E.

Denham, L. [Teller.]

Boyd of Merton, V.

Craigavon, V.

Digby, L.

Dormer, L.

Kimberley, E.

Orr-Ewing, L.

Drumalbyn, L.

Kinnaird, L.

Pender, L.

Duncan-Sandys, L.

Knutsford, V.

Redmayne, L.

Dundonald, E.

Lauderdale, E.

Renton, L.

Ebbisham, L.

Lindsey and Abingdon, E.

Rochdale, V.

Eccles, V.

Lloyd of Kilgerran, L.

Rochester, L.

Ellenborough, L.

London, Bp.

Romney, E.

Elliot of Harwood, B.

Long, V.

St. Aldwyn, E.

Elton, L.

Lucas of Chilworth, L.

St. Davids, V.

Falkland, V.

Lyell, L.

Sandys, L. [Teller.]

Ferrers, E.

McAlpine of Moffat, L.

Sempill, Ly.

Ferrier, L.

McFadzean, L.

Simon, V.

Forester, L.

Macleod of Borve, B.

Skelmersdale, L.

Fortescue, E.

Mancroft, L.

Stamp, L.

Fraser of Kilmorack, L.

Mansfield, E.

Stanley of Alderley, L.

Freyberg, L.

Marley, L.

Strathclyde, L.

Gisborough, L.

Massereene and Ferrard, V.

Strathcona and Mount Royal, L.

Glenkinglas, L.

Meston, L.

Strathspey, L.

Gormanston, V.

Monk Bretton, L.

Swinfen, L.

Gowrie, E.

Morris, L.

Tranmire, L.

Grimthorpe, L.

Mowbray and Stourton, L.

Trefgarne, L.

Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, L. (L. Chancellor.)

Moyne, L.

Trenchard, V.

Murton of Lindisfarne, L.

Trumpington, B.

Halsbury, E.

Netherthorpe, L.

Vaux of Harrowden, L.

Hanworth, V.

Newall, L.

Vickers, B.

Henley, L.

Norfolk, D.

Vivian, L.

Hornsby-Smith, B.

Northchurch, B.

Westbury, L.

Hylton-Foster, B.

Nugent of Guildford, L.

Wolverton, L.

Inglewood, L.

Onslow, E.

Young, B.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.

Clause 123 [Power to dispose of land]:
[Amendments Nos. 150 and 151 not moved.]
5.29 p.m.
Baroness DAVID Baroness DAVID moved Amendment No. 152:
Leave out Clause 123.
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, I am seeking to leave out Clause 123, which relates to the power to dispose of land. We on this side of the House are opposed to enforced sales and to orders from the Secretary of State, partly because we dislike the bullying and directing of responsible people, people who are doing a good job and who, incidentally, are appointed by the Minister, and partly—and even more importantly—because we think that enforced sales will not be in the public interest.
Town centre developments in particular take a long time to come into profit, as do other enterprises. But town centres are a very good example of assets maturing and developing for the benefit of the community over a considerable period of time. We do not object—and I want to emphasise this—to sales to help further
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developments in the new towns; nor, indeed, do we object to sales to owners of small businesses or owners of small industries. We do not object to a mix of private and public ownership, but we do want to see sales for a good reason and not just to raise immediate money to go to the Treasury. That, in fact, was certainly said by Ministers in another place, that the reason for sales was to reduce the PSBR.
To sell freehold—and my noble friend Lady Stedman read from the instruction sent in July to new town corporations—is in most cases to sell assets which are improving in value all the time, and it seems just bad and stupid business, and not at all in the public interest. The values of assets in new towns, and particularly in new towns which are still developing and are not yet completed, are growing all the time. It seems absurd to sell prematurely. Why should the nation, the taxpayer, put money in and be deprived of the benefit of the profits when they eventually appear? It seems to me a shortsighted and, indeed, myopic policy. Why interfere with what is a successful public enterprise? It seems that the general policy of this Government is to get rid of the profitable and successful public enterprises and to hang on to the others.
Do the Government not see their obligation to retain an interest in the land by

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not selling the freehold, and in its redevelopment at a future date, perhaps a date really some long way ahead, so that they can be ready at that time to respond to the changing needs of commerce and industry? Our inner urban areas show the need for this adaptability, and it may be that they would not have got into the troubles that they are in if that policy had been followed before. Have the Government nothing to learn from a previous Tory Government which in 1962 passed a Bill to prevent Letchworth's property being dissipated and fragmented?
Of course, the New Town Act does not promise that the surpluses accruing to the new town corporations or the commission after all their loan debt has been repaid would be devoted to the benefit of the new town inhabitants; but neither does it afford any justification for treating these bodies as if they had no obligations beyond creating financial assets for the Government, either to serve the nation's benefit or to plunder as improvidently as they please. The policy being pursued is liable to prejudice and pre-empt the issue of the future ownership of the new town assets, which needs to be determined in a broader and much more far-sighted way.
The Minister did not answer my noble friend Lady Stedman when she spoke on a previous clause and asked what was to be the future of the commission. The future of the assets and of the land belonging to the new towns depends very much, of course, upon what it is decided should be done with the commission, so I hope that in answering my amendment we shall hear something of that. I beg to move.
Viscount SIMON: My Lords, I have a great deal of sympathy with what the noble Baroness, Lady David, has said in moving this amendment, but I feel some difficulty about this and it may be that, when she comes to wind up, she will be able to help me. It seems to me that as the Government have succeeded in carrying Amendment No. 148A it is very difficult to remove the power of the new towns to sell property if it is necessary for them to do so in order to meet a demand which, regrettably, Parliament has now placed upon them.
Lord UNDERHILL: My Lords, I wish
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to support my noble friend in this amendment. On the point which has just been raised by the noble Viscount, Lord Simon, so far the House has decided only on the question of raising money. We are now dealing with the question of how to raise the money, which is the diktat of the Secretary of State—and I use the word diktat because one must recall what the noble Baroness, Lady Denington, said at the Committee stage, that in fact what we are doing here is legalising an action already taken by the Secretary of State; because the noble Baroness made it quite clear that the Secretary of State has already demanded sums of money from the corporations and some have paid already.
We are now dealing with the clause which deals with the situation where, to realise the sum of money, the disposal of land is required, and it is a question of how it shall be done. If a lot of land comes on the market all at once, there is obviously going to be, I would think, some effect upon the value and the receipts that will be accruing. Also, surely, the disposal of an abundance of land is going to have some effect upon the future revenues of new town corporations, because you can only sell land once and income accruing from rents, and so on, will not be secured in the future.
Also, under this clause considerable power is given to the Secretary of State as to the direction he will give to a corporation or the commission as to how they shall dispose of the land; that is made quite clear in subsection (5). Therefore, it could be not only how it shall be done and when it shall be done, but at what value it shall be done; and even in relation to particular pieces of land the full authority is there without any criteria or conditions whatever. It is provided in the clause that the Secretary of State shall consult the corporation before giving a direction, but, as we have seen in the case of other clauses in this Bill, it does not say what will happen if the corporation does not wish to comply with the direction. It is merely a question of consultation, and the Secretary of State can apparently just brush on one side any representations that the corporation may make. In other words, is it just a formality?
Then we find, also in this clause, that the Secretary of State need not have con-

593
sultations with the corporation if he feels that the urgency makes it impracticable. I shoud like to ask the Minister: In what circumstances is it envisaged that there could be such an emergency in the matter of the disposal of land that the Secretary of State could not find it possible to consult with a corporation? It seems an unnecessary provision and another unnecessary power to give to the Secretary of State.
We are dealing now also with the question of land, and the disposal of it. The debate we had on the other amendment dealt with the instruction to pay certain sums. I must draw attention to the provisions that we have in Clause 95 regarding the disposal of land held by public bodies, because there we find that the Secretary of State has to be thoroughly satisfied that land will not be disposed of unless it can be done
"without serious detriment to the performance of their functions or the carrying on of their undertaking".
Yet, when my noble friend endeavoured to put almost a similar condition on the demand for money to be paid, we met resistance and the position was reversed by our earlier vote this afternoon. But that ought to be kept in mind when we are dealing with Clause 123, and I hope the House will support this amendment.
5.39 p.m.
Lord SANDYS: My Lords, in response to the noble Baroness, Lady David, who has spoken to this clause, we believe that Clause 123 is a necessary consequence of Clause 122. In fact, it is a corollary of it, as it expands the power of the development corporations and the commission for the new towns to dispose of land. The present powers, contained in the 1965 and 1968 Acts, restrict each town's disposals to those necessary to secure the development of a particular town. This clause gives clear-cut powers for the new towns to dispose of land in order to comply with the Secretary of State's directions under Clause 122.
This wider power of disposal is an essential part of the policy of enabling assets in completed towns to be realised for deployment elsewhere. I think that the noble Baroness in her remarks agreed that this was a very worthy policy; and it is the policy of Her Majesty's Govern-
594
ment. Without it, the massive resources invested in the new towns remain tied up—effectively neutralised for all the good they can do in promoting the develoment of new industry, and generally helping to solve the problems of the present day. Hence we consider that the wider power of disposal is an essential part of our approach to the new towns. Various points have been made about the detail of the powers of disposal. The features of the clause to which objection has been taken are all results of our intention to make the power of disposal under this clause subject to exactly the same rules as the existing powers of disposal of the new towns; that is, arrangements which have not been questioned by noble Lords opposite. We want to ensure that the arrangements are as precisely parallel as possible.
Perhaps I may take the points in sequence. Firstly, subsection (3) forbids disposals by way of mortgage. This repeats the ban in Section 18(3) of the 1965 New Towns Act. Secondly, subsection (4) requires the Secretary of State's consent to disposals of the freehold or on leases of more than 99 years. This repeats what is in Section 18(1) in the 1965 Act. Thirdly, subsection (5) gives the Secretary of State power to give direction on the exercise of the power of disposal. This repeats the general power in Section 4(2) of the 1965 Act. This applies to all the powers of the development corporations under that Act, including their existing powers of disposal; and fourthly, subsection (6) requires consultation with corporations before directions are given, unless urgency makes this impracticable. This parallels the qualification to which directions under Section 4(2) are subject. And I should point out that the exemption from consultation in case of urgency exists in the 1965 Act.
Doubt was cast on the matter of the legality of the Secretary of State's action by the noble Lord, Lord Underhill. Perhaps I may refer to Standing Committee D, and I may also refer to Lord Mishcon's prayer and, from this side of the House, offer another prayer; that it may be a matter of consideration that the discussion in Standing Committee on this particular matter perhaps sometimes could be the subject of a little

595
more concern because I think my honourable friend the Under-Secretary of State for the department, Mr. Marcus Fox, put it clearly when he said (at col. 591 on 29th April, which was the 29th sitting of the Committee):
"With respect to the points raised by the hon. Member for Newham, South (Mr. Spearing), his fears about a regular appearance in court by the Secretary of State or any particular new town development corporation, or whoever it may be, will not be borne out, because the development corporations have been prepared to sell. What has concerned them has been the doubts about the legality of selling, and that is what we are seeking to ensure here to remove these doubts. There is nothing new in this where recovery has to take place. The Housing Act 1974 made the same provision for repayments of grants that had been given in regard to the housing corporations.
The rolling-over of assets of these corporations which occurred under the previous Government was allowed".
I hope that that may help the noble Lord, Lord Underhill, to see the position as it stands at the moment.
I think there are other matters to which I should refer, points of clarification which I thought my honourable friend Mr. King at the department also made extremely clear in his concluding remarks. He is the Minister for Local Government. In regard to the question of debt (and I think it is an important matter to which my noble friend has already referred) he said, in col. 614:
"When one considers that the investment of the accumulated debt of the new towns is now some £3,200 million—"
and my noble friend quoted £3,250 million, as it has risen since April—
"I gave that figure in another context a little earlier—one sees that there is much to be said for any efforts that will help to reduce it".
I think that both my noble friend today and my honourable friend Mr. King made clear what is the Government policy. I am sure it is acknowledged by noble Lords opposite. There is such a very substantial debt at the present moment. My noble friend has already pointed out, I think with some passion, our belief in the reinvestment programme. I think it was made clear (and I will not quote in detail) in col. 613 in Standing Committee "D" by Mr. King. He quoted specific details of the investment programme. We believe this clause is an essential part of the Bill and I regret that we must resist this amendment.
Baroness STEDMAN: My Lords, I am sure that the noble Lord is aware that one of the things which troubles us is not the careful way he has explained the clause and the subsections today, implying that nothing is different from what goes on in new towns today; but that that has been altered by the circular which went out in July 1980, where the Minister said that where disposals were being made, they should be on a freehold basis. At the present time, it is always difficult for the development corporations to get agreement from the Department of the Environment that they should sell a freehold. Most of them are leaseholds for 99 years. We are concerned that it is the freeholder who benefits in the end from the appreciating value of the land or building. We think that it is imperative that the Government maintain and control the activities of the development corporations so that in due course the increasing value of the land or property accrues to the community and not to the freeholder. It is the question of unrestricted freehold selling that worries us.
Lord BELLWIN: My Lords, may I reply on this, to say that if we are talking about leaseholds and freeholds, as the noble Baroness knows, when leaseholds are sold in these circumstances usually one is talking about long leases of 99 years or 125 years or whatever. The long-term intention of the new towns was always that at the end of the day, they would go back to the local authorities where they were situated. It is now, 30 years on, that we see the first ones are going back. I should have thought that as far as new towns development corporations themselves are concerned the issue of leasehold or freehold, in terms of long leases, would not be an issue to them.
You could say, going beyond that, if you were talking about the general philosophy of selling a freehold or a leasehold, that the noble Baroness's argument on its own is understood. But it is an argument that I had time and time again in another incarnation. We felt, if the principle was right, that we did not want, as a local authority then, to own land just for the sake of owning it. We did not mind as long as the price we got for it was good. What mattered most was what we did with the money we got. The fact that the land itself was then in private ownership or

597
whatever was secondary to the use we put to the money; in other words, the way we had converted the assets from fixed to liquid. It was what happened to the money that we got. That was the object. The same would apply to Government thinking on this matter.
Baroness DAVID: My Lords, I cannot say that I am altogether satisfied with the answer that I have had. We wished to move the deletion of the clause because we do not approve of the policy of hasty sales and probably future regrets. Particularly, we feel there is foolishness in the disposing of land which will tie hands in the future. I appreciate the point that the noble Viscount, Lord Simon, made. There has still been no answer to the question about what is intended to be the future of the commission. I will not press that now at this hour, and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendments Nov. 153 to 155 not moved.]
Clause 130 [Urban development areas]:
5.51 p.m.
Lord ELWYN-JONES Lord ELWYN-JONES moved Amendment No. 156:
Page 113, line 4, leave out ("Subject to subsection (2) below").
The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, if we take Amendments Nos. 156 and 157 together it will give the House, first, the opportunity of re-examining the designation of London docklands and Merseyside as urban development areas and, secondly, of considering in further detail the issue of hybridity to which, I submit, the clause gives rise. We debated the proposals in Committee on 14th October. I do not propose to do so again in any detail as they were adumbrated in a notable speech by my noble friend Lord Underhill, and also in speeches by the noble Lord, Lord Evans of Claughton, and myself.
The effect of what is proposed for the dockland areas of London and Liverpool will certainly, so far as London is concerned, be to disrupt and delay the implementation of the docklands strategic
598
plan which was approved in July 1976. I have in my hand a copy of the plan with all its glossy beauty for all who are here to see. That strategic plan was approved by the five boroughs concerned, the Greater London Council with independent members, including Government nominees, and after extensive public consultation. A great deal of progress has been made with the implementation of the strategic plan and at the very least the effect of the Government's proposals in the Bill is to create uncertainty as to how far the principles embodied in the plan will be adopted by the development corporation.
Not only is there in existence the strategic plan, but also a detailed operational programme for 1979 to 1983 which has been in the course of implementation for several years. Some of my noble friends and I had the pleasure of touring the dockland area concerned to see the extensive progress that has already taken place to give effect to the operational programme. I assume that the noble Lord has seen this document. If he has not, I will be glad to let him have a copy. At the back of the document there is a detailed account of the money spent and the work already done in the implementation of the operational programme. Does the noble Lord think that any parts of it should go ahead? If so, which parts? Does he think that some of the proposals in the operational plan will be cancelled? The authorities concerned would like to know, because this is a continuing process in which of course they are very greatly concerned.
The claimed purpose of setting up the UDCs is to regenerate the areas which clearly need regeneration. However, we submit that that regeneration is already taking place in the areas. The case of the Government has rested to a substantial degree on the analogy of the new town corporations. But we are not dealing here with new towns; we are considering well established, indeed historic, local authorities and extensive existing built up areas—the very reverse of the new town set up.
I should have thought that in this situation the crucial problem—certainly the crucial need—will be to secure the co-operation of the local authorities in the regeneration proposals and actions. I ask rhetorically: Is co-operation likely to happen when what is proposed by the

599
Government is that the local authorities concerned should be robbed of their existing powers, which I say are already being exercised energetically, and that those powers and a good deal of their land should be placed at the disposal of an autocratic body under the instructions of and only answerable to the Secretary of State? What co-operation can be expected from those circumstances? My great fear is that the revolutionary change of direction and change of control that is now proposed, away from responsible local authorities, so far from speeding up the existing pace of regeneration—which is the argument put forward in support of the proposals—would, on the contrary, slow it down.
The other point of substance that the Minister insisted upon was the expectation that the corporations would attract more private capital. It is interesting to reflect: Why should that be so? Is it because the development corporation would have powers of land acquisition, particularly of land at present owned by statutory undertakers?—and there is a lot of that in the area concerned. Those powers have been denied, and are denied, to existing local authorities and the Docklands Joint Committee. Is it also because planning permission, with the attendant possibilities of capital gains from development of land in the centre of London next to the City of London and with reasonable communication with the West End, will not be in the hands of the local authorities, which are democratically accountable, but would be in the hands of this autocratic super-quango that the Government propose to set up?
These considerations have become increasingly relevant in the light of the memorandum dated 27th October which was sent out by the Department of the Environment to the local authorities concerned, and which indicates significant proposed changes in the area of land that is to be designated. All this has happened while we have been considering the Bill in this House without knowledge of these developments. While land in the Greenwich and Lewisham areas has been taken out of the proposals, land on the South Bank, on the South side of the Pool of London as far as London Bridge, has been added to the proposed take-over area.
If the Bill is passed, and orders are made, that land will be transferred to the London Docklands Development Corporation. It is one of the most important and environmentally sensitive areas of land in London. Do these changes mean that the development corporation will be able to escape the usual planning inquiries, acquire the land under a compulsory purchase order but under different conditions and at a lower cost than would apply to the existing local authorities? There are rich pickings here and public answerability is of great importance. So much for the general considerations relating to the proposals in this Part of the Bill.
The next matter of substance to which I should like to refer is the issue of hybridity, which the Minister in another place described as somewhat arcane. It is not without its difficulties, but, arcane though it may be, when the party of noble Lords opposite were in power, my goodness, what use they made of it! They harried us, they harassed us in and out on the shiprepairing Bill, and therefore it cannot be said that it is argument to which they are strangers. I raised this question at the Committee stage. As the House will know, when this Bill was first presented subsection (2) was not included. Care was taken not to designate any particular area of land at that stage. Indeed, the noble Lord, Lord Bellwin, said at column 1192 of the Official Report that the intention was to avoid the hybridity point, which of course he still claims the clause as amended does achieve. My submission is that it does not and that, certainly prima facie, Subsection (2) of the clause is hybrid.
It is true that there are 36 metropolitan districts, 12 relevant Inner London boroughs and 20 Outer London boroughs whose land would be capable of coming within the provisions of the Bill as it would be if the new subsection were included. But the reality that we are dealing with—and the reality which is admitted and, indeed, has been widely publicised—is that there are only two areas of land which are to be designated; and they have been defined and identified—namely, land in London Docklands and in Merseyside. The reality of the matter is that we are not dealing with the wide classes of metropolitan districts and the

601
large number of London boroughs; we are dealing with two limited specified areas of land belonging to the few authorities owning that land.
In my submission these are provisions which will specially affect particular local authorities and particular individuals living in or having business in the area of the land concerned. They are persons and authorities who will be singled out for adverse treatment, to use the language of Mr. Speaker Hylton-Foster in defining a hybrid Bill. I quoted the reference when we discussed the matter in Committee. He said:
"An individual singled out by a public Bill for adverse treatment should be allowed to plead his cause to a Select Committee on a petition against the Bill or against those provisions of the Bill that will affect him. The doctrine was designed to give the minority some defence against the Legislature, and that in modern times means defence against the Crown. Unless it is that, it is nothing".
The reality of what is proposed here, and known to be proposed and admitted to be proposed, is to single out these two areas of land in the domain of five or six local authorities. In my submission we are not dealing here with a classification, a class, a category, but with singled-out and identifiable or individual authorities. The question of hybridity was discussed in another place on 1st May this year when it was raised by my honourable friend Mr. Nigel Spearing, who, incidentally, succeeded me as Member of Parliament for Newham South; the lucky man! Mr. King, the Minister in another place, denied that the clause was hybrid and said, at column 740 of the Official Report of Standing Committee D of 1st May, that:
"the actual areas for the UDCs are not specified in the legislation. The legislation covers the general concept of urban development corporations".
Of course, on 1st May that was perfectly true; we had only the general language, the general concept, at that time. But since then the situation has changed. A large number of authorities protested, fearful of having the privilege of UDCs being bestowed upon them, and subsection (2) was introduced in the clause to reassure the worried and the frightened largely Conservative authorities. I submit that that appeasement of the authorities concerned must be paid for by the price of hybridity and what follows from it.
But one thing the Minister, Mr. King, did make clear in another place was that at any rate the designation orders which have to be made to set up the development corporations would be hybrid. That was said by him at column 741 of the Hansard report. He said:
"The point is that designation orders have to be made to set up urban development corporations. They are made by the Secretary of State under Clause 108, which is the designation of an urban development area; under Clause 109, the establishment of a UDC; under Clause 114, the vesting of the land; under Clause 122, the transfer of the housing functions. They would be subject to the hybrid affirmative procedure".
That is a very positive and very clear commitment.
Then, however, the question of hybridity was raised again in another place on 6th May, at column 799 of the Official Report. On that occasion the Minister was certainly far less categorical than he had been on May Day. It was true, he said, that the Bill was not hybrid (of course, that has always been the contention of the Government) but a designation order made under the Bill—then there is a delightful piece of circumlocution:
"would clearly be likely to excite the attentions of the Hybrid Instruments Committee in the House of Lords".
Then he added:
"… I considered that it would be for the Hybrid Instruments Committee to decide on locus standi "
Then, again, a nice piece of circumlocution:
"It would be difficult, I believe, for it not to be considered that a local authority in the area definitely did have locus standi and that its views would need to be considered".
Difficult, indeed, if it could be contested that the local authority whose powers were to be taken over had no locus standi in the situation. I submit that that would be a somewhat grotesque suggestion. However, there it was.
In our debate on the clause on 14th October the noble Lord, Lord Bellwin, nowhere indicated whether or not orders under this clause would be hybrid. The only mention of orders was made by the noble Lord, Lord Sandford, who helpfully intervened during my speech and said, in column 1193 of the Official Report:
"The orders designating the areas and establishing the corporations will of course be hybrid, and that is where the point comes in".

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It is my case that the point came in on the consideration of the clause itself, which I submit is tainted with hybridity now. However, on the limited but important question of the hybridity of the proposed orders, what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Sandford, was neither confirmed nor denied, or indeed commented on by the noble Minister.
I submit that this is a matter which needs to be cleared up unless the Government could properly be accused of securing the passage of this clause through both Houses on the understanding that orders made under it would be hybrid or were most likely to be hybrid. It would put the matter beyond doubt and put the Government out of their difficulty, of course, if they were to accept my amendment, because the whole question would then fall. At any rate, we certainly need clarification about the hybridity of the orders. But, apart from that, I submit that the factors to which I have called the attention of the House indicate that we are now clearly in the presence, prima facie at any rate, of hybridity. I beg to move.
6.12 p.m.
Lord MISHCON: My Lords, I wonder whether I may be permitted to add just a few words to the submission of my noble and learned friend in connection with the hybridity issue. It is not often that muses manage to intervene in this House and give us any inspiration to poetry; but I must admit that, while listening to my noble and learned friend directing his remarks on hybridity to the Minister, I could not help but think of these lines:
"No peer would connect Beliwin with the slightest frigidity
But, by Heavens! this House charges him with hybridity".
And so, having introduced the matter on a poetic basis, may I now consider with your Lordships the question of the legal issues involved, as I see them?
Obviously I adopt everything that my noble and learned friend has already said and I rise purely to add somewhat, if he will permit me, to what he said. At the Committee stage we particularised the invasion of private rights that there might be. They are clearly set out in Clause 132 and I will not weary the House with a
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repetition of them. It is interesting to look at Erskine May, that invaluable guide to what should be the procedure of Parliament. At page 862 of that eternal book, this is to be found in regard to the question of hybrid Bills:
"There are two reasons why bills affecting private rights … are properly introduced as hybrid bills—first that, although in part they may be of a private nature, their main object is a public one;"—
and, if I may pause there, that is obviously so with this Bill, in my submission—
"and secondly, that there may be no parties able and willing to present a petition".
That is exactly the situation, I would submit, of the Bill as it now stands with subsection (2) in it.
There is another difficulty, unless it can be clarified by the Minister or by the noble and learned Lord who sits on the Woolsack, and it is this: if the answer to the question be that there is no need for this to be ruled as a hybrid Bill but that any order which designates an area and sets up an urban development corporation would be a hybrid order and therefore be subjected to the hybrid procedure, I then find myself looking at Clause 135.
I wonder whether your Lordships will give me the courtesy of looking at that clause. It deals with the allocation or transfer of functions, and your Lordships will, I hope, see in subsection (1), together with subsection (2), how relevant is the point I am making. It says:
"If it appears to the Secretary of State, in the case of an urban development area, that there are exceptional circumstances which render it expedient that the functions of an urban development corporation under this Part of this Act should be performed by the urban development corporation established for the purposes of any other area instead of by a separate corporation established for the purpose, he may, instead of establishing such a separate corporation, by order, direct that those functions shall be performed by the urban development corporation established for the other area".
If I can put it in simple language, it means that if you make an order and at that stage you have decided that the urban development corporation set up by that order is going to deal with a specific area and not impinge on any other area, and the hybrid procedure is gone through, you may subsequently find that the Secretary of State may make an order allowing that urban development corporation in that one area to carry out certain functions in an entirely different area. Where, in

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that different area, will be the right of the private interests involved to object, unless it is also said that an order made under Clause 135 would also be a hybrid order?
If your Lordships will look at subsection (2), you will see that it says:
"If it appears to the Secretary of State that there are exceptional circumstances which render it expedient that the functions of an urban development corporation established for one area should be transferred to the urban development corporation established for the purposes of another area, or to a new urban development corporation to be established for the first-mentioned area, he may, by order, provide for the dissolution of the first-mentioned corporation, and for the transfer of its functions, property, rights and liabilities to the urban development corporation established for the purposes of the other area or (as the case may be) to a new corporation established for the purposes of the first-mentioned area by the order".
That, in simple language, means this. Having got the first case, where there is no urban development corporation area, for the other area that has been considered, you now have two urban development corporations set up in two different areas with a hybrid procedure gone through, if that be the order of the day. Then you have the ability of the Secretary of State to transfer the functions of one urban development area to another and to dissolve one, if he thinks that that is a suitable thing to do, with the result that you get completely different private interests involved.
I find myself in an absolute maze in this question of hybridity, and I ask whether in fact the maze is not escaped from—if that is not too ugly a phrase—by saying that this Bill must, because of its complexity, be a hybrid Bill. Or is the answer to it that, quite apart from the question of the original order which is to be made by the Secretary of State being a hybrid order, does it not also mean that every order made under Clause 135 will have to set up an entirely new hybrid procedure if any such order is made?—making, if I may say so, a mockery of the first hybrid procedure which was gone through when the first urban development corporation was set up, now that its powers and functions are in some way altered. I hope that I have not put this with too much complexity, but it is indeed a complicated matter and I trust that, somehow or other, we shall manage this evening to get some clarity into a very important issue.
6.20 p.m.
Lord BELLWIN: My Lords, the amendment raises two important and quite distinct issues, and I wonder whether I may begin by referring to the general policy question. I must reiterate the fact that we moved an amendment at Committee stage to restrict the type of area in which X UDCs could be set up, as a positive response to suggestions made by many people, both at Second Reading in this House and elsewhere. Given that the legislation affords the Secretary of State general and wide powers as to the areas that he can designate, the argument was forcefully put to us that the powers of designation should be restricted. We accepted that.
It seemed to us then, and it certainly seems to me now, to be fair and right that we should take account of this and, accordingly, restrict the areas where urban development corporations can be set up to the major conurbations—the ones which the noble and learned Lord, Lord Elwyn-Jones, mentioned when he made his observations. But if we are talking in the generality of the philosophy of urban development corporations, which was the thrust of the first part of what the noble and learned Lord said on this whole matter, I have to say that what I said in Committee covered all the points.
It is true that work has been done by the Docklands Joint Committee, and the document to which the noble and learned Lord referred is known to me, though perhaps not as well as it is known to him. But the fact is that in that designated area there are some 6,000 acres, and it is arguably one of the most exciting areas of land, in the sense of opportunity, in the whole of Europe. Yes, my Lords, the Docklands Joint Committee and the local authorities have done good things over the years and are still doing them. In Committee, I paid tribute to what they are doing, and I do so again now. But we cannot wait for the time that it will take.
Surely it cannot be wrong to want to tackle these areas in a radical way, to bring about the kind of regeneration that we believe can come about from urban development corporations. Of course, it will involve a much greater commitment by Government than there may ever have

607
been in the past, but the fact is that the prize, in terms of upgrading these areas, is a great one. As regards the pace at which it can be done, by involvement of the private sector, which we may or may not want to discuss again now—I suggest that we do not, but will do so if pressed—the fact is that this is a tremendous opportunity. We know from what has been said to us that there are people who are waiting to come in to do these exciting things, and to us it seems only right that we should take these two areas and show exactly what can be done.
Of course, the Bill goes beyond that. In its scope, it takes in the other areas that have been mentioned. But, in general terms, rather than go into a lot of detail, I have to stand on the philosophical point which I have just mentioned that, while paying due tribute, we really believe that this is a tremendous opportunity. The fact that it has been greeted with so much enthusiasm by so many people, not only supporters on this side of the House but all over, gives credence to that opportunity.
On the point of hybridity, I immediately realise that I am on very difficult ground in the presence of so many distinguished noble and learned Lords. But I wonder whether I may make one or two observations as they appear to me. We have discussed this matter very closely. We recognise the great importance and significance of what the noble and learned Lord said. Therefore, he would have expected not only that we consider this in another place, but, in that he has raised the matter now because of this amendment, that we should do so again. I assure him that we have done that and I wonder whether I may speak as follows.
In achieving this desirable effect which I have just mentioned, as regards the totality of what we want to do with these UDCs, we faced this criticism of having introduced hybridity by what this amendment says. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Elwyn-Jones, brought out his concern very clearly and forcefully in Committee. I told your Lordships in Committee how concerned we had been about it earlier. But in the light of the comments made since then by the noble and learned Lord, we have again taken special care to seek further advice.
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It is that Clause 130(2) does not make the Bill hybrid. That is because, in the case of England, all that subsection (2) does is to limit the ability of the Secretary of State to designate an urban development area to certain classes of area. For England as a whole, it is limited to metropolitan districts. For London, it is limited to inner London boroughs and to boroughs which have a common boundary with an inner London borough, as the noble and learned Lord said.
It can clearly be seen from this that, in the view of my noble and learned friend and others who have spoken to me on this matter, all this provision in the Bill does is to limit areas suitable for designation to certain classes of authority. It does not, therefore, impinge on particular persons or agencies, and on this test it does not make the Bill hybrid. Even so, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Elwyn-Jones, said, his concern may well become relevant at a later stage.
An order setting up an individual UDC will fall to be considered by the Chairman of Committees to report to this House whether, apart from the provisions of the Act authorising it to be made, it would require to be enacted by a private or hybrid Bill. If he reports that it would, the order and any petitions relating to it would be referred to the Hybrid Instruments Committee. This committee, after considering representations, will decide whether any petitioner has a locus standi and, if so, whether the petition discloses substantial grounds and whether there ought to be a further inquiry by a Select Committee.
If the Hybrid Instruments Committee reports to the House that there ought to be a further inquiry, the House may refer the order and any petitions against it to a Select Committee of this House. This is the procedure which is enshrined in Standing Order No. 216 relating to Private Bills and so on. It is a procedure which allows the House to give particularly careful and detailed scrutiny to the orders which will be laid, and enables the whole question of hybridity to be throughly examined against the background of the facts. That is all I have to say on the hybridity matter and I hope that it will, at least, partly assuage the fears of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Elwyn-Jones.
The LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone): My Lords, I have an uncanny feeling that the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, got in before I proposed the Question, so perhaps I had better propose it now. The Question is, That Amendment No. 152 be agreed to?
Lord ELWYN-JONES: My Lords, The House may be assured that I do not propose to reopen the whole issue, in the light of the claimed omission on the part of the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor. But to say that I am satisfied with the answer given by the Minister would surprise all my noble friends and, indeed, would be a considerable lapse on my part. It was a disappointing answer.
I shall not reopen the general argument which the noble Lord described as philosophical. I did not detect any philosophy in it, but never mind about the word. All I can say is that, apart from there being no enthusiasm for this proposal among these most affected, it has been totally and strongly opposed in the dock-lands by the authorities concerned and, so far as I have been able to gather, by the people in the area. So if there is support for it, it does not come from those who would be most affected by the development, which is a very serious matter.
But there it is. I have put the argument upon it and I am disappointed that
this area is going to be subjected to further delay, further confusion, further uncertainty. I had the honour of representing the place for 29 years, and I know what they have been through. This is going to cause frustration and disappointment, in my view, whatever the hopes and the aspirations of the Minister may be.
On the hybridity issue, naturally I did not expect the noble Lord to agree with my main argument as to whether the Bill as it stands is hybrid. I put the argument and I do not propose to repeat it. I confess I am disappointed that the noble Lord did not feel able to go as far as the noble Lord, Lord Sandford, did, and as far as the Minister in another place did in his initial examination of this matter, when he said in terms that in his view the orders would be hybrid. No doubt further consideration was given to the matter and he engaged in what I have ventured to describe as a notable piece of circumlocution to qualify his previous total commitment. I am disappointed with the answer, and in the circumstances I think it is right that the House should divide upon the matter.
6.32 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 156) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 55; Not-Contents, 105.

CONTENTS

Ardwick, L.

Greenwood of Rossendale, L.

Ross of Marnock, L.

Beswick, L.

Gregson, L.

Segal, L.

Blease, L.

Hale, L.

Shinwell, L.

Blyton, L.

Hatch of Lusby, L.

Stamp, L.

Brockway, L.

Houghton of Sowerby, L.

Stedman, B.

Brooks of Tremorfa, L.

Jacques, L.

Stewart of Alvechurch, B.

Bruce of Donington, L.

Jeger, B.

Stewart of Fulham, L.

Collison, L.

Kaldor, L.

Stone, L.

Cooper of Stockton Heath, L.

Leatherland, L.

Strabolgi, L.

Cudlipp, L.

Llewelyn-Davies of Hastoe, B.

Taylor of Blackburn, L.

David, B.

McCarthy, L.

Taylor of Mansfield, L.

Davies of Penrhys, L.

McGregor of Durris, L.

Underhill, L.

Diamond, L.

Milner of Leeds, L.

Wall, L.

Elwyn-Jones, L.

Mishcon, L.

Wallace of Coslany, L. [Teller.]

Fisher of Rednal, B.

Oram, L.

Whaddon, L.

Gaitskell, B.

Peart, L.

Winterbottom, L.

Galpern, L.

Phillips, B.

Wootton of Abinger, B.

Gardiner, L.

Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L. [Teller.]

Young of Dartington, L.

Gosford, E.

NOT-CONTENTS

Ailesbury, M.

Belstead, L.

Brabazon of Tara, L.

Airey of Abingdon, B.

Bessborough, E.

Brougham and Vaux, L.

Avon, E.

Boyd of Merton, V.

Burton, L.

Bellwin, L.

Boyd-Carpenter, L.

Caithness, E.

Cathcart, E.

Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, L. (L. Chancellor.)

Netherthorpe, L.

Cockfield, L.

Northchurch, B.

Colville of Culross, V.

Haisbury, E.

Nugent of Guildford, L.

Cork and Orrery, E.

Hanworth, V.

Onslow, E.

Craigavon, V.

Hornsby-Smith, B.

Orr-Ewing, L.

Craigmyle, L.

Hylton-Foster, B.

Pender, L.

Craigton, L.

Inglewood, L.

Redesdale, L.

Croft, L.

Killearn, L.

Redmayne, L.

Cullen of Ashbourne, L.

Kinloss, Ly.

Rochdale, V.

Davidson, V.

Kinnaird, L.

Romney, E.

de Clifford, L.

Knutsford, V.

St. Aldwyn, E.

De Freyne, L.

Lauderdale, E.

St. Davids, V.

De La Warr, E.

Lindsey and Abingdon, E.

Salisbury, M.

Denham, L. [Teller.]

Long, V.

Sandys, L. [Teller.]

Digby, L.

Lucas of Chilworth, L.

Sempill, Ly.

Dormer, L.

Lyell, L.

Skelmersdale, L.

Duncan-Sandys, L.

McAlpine of Moffat, L.

Slim, V.

Eccles, V.

McFadzean, L.

Soames, L. (L. President.)

Ellenborough, L.

Macleod of Borve, B.

Stanley of Alderley, L.

Elliot of Harwood, B.

Mancroft, L.

Strathclyde, L.

Elton, L.

Mansfield, E.

Strathcona and Mount Royal, L.

Falkland, V.

Marley, L.

Strathspey, L.

Ferrers, E.

Massereene and Ferrard, V.

Tranmire, L.

Ferrier, L.

Monk Bretton, L.

Trefgarne, L.

Fortescue, E.

Monson, L.

Trenchard, V.

Fraser of Kilmorack, L.

Montgomery of Alamein, V.

Trumpington, B.

Freyberg, L.

Morris, L.

Tweedsmuir, L.

Gormanston, V.

Mottistone, L.

Vaux of Harrowden, L.

Gowrie, E.

Mountevans, L.

Vickers, B.

Greenway, L.

Mowbray and Stourton, L.

Vivian, L.

Grimthorpe, L.

Murton of Lindisfarne, L.

Westbury, L.

Young, B.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

[Amendment No. 157 not moved.]
6.40 p.m.
Viscount SIMON Viscount SIMON had given notice of his intention to move Amendment No. 157A:
Page 113, leave out lines 10 to 14, and insert ("it comprises land held for or formerly held for docks or harbour purposes within the meaning of the Harbours Act 1964 and is located in a metropolitan district or in London").
The noble Viscount said: In the regretted absence of my noble friend Lord Evans of Claughton, I should like to speak to Amendment No. 157A. As your Lordships will see, this is really almost the exact opposite of Amendment No. 156 which we were recently discussing and since the Government rejected that amendment it may be that they would feel inclined to support this amendment, which is to limit the scope within which urban development corporations can be set up to that formerly held for docks or harbour purposes within the meaning of the Harbours Act of 1964 and located
612
either in the metropolitan district or in London.
The reason why my noble friend tabled this amendment is that we all know (although it is not in the Bill) that the Government's intention at this stage is to develop two urban development corporations which would indeed be covered by this amendment. We are not so enthusiastic about urban development corporations as some people seem to be, and we wonder whether these two corporations which they are proposing to set up would not be good trial areas in which we can see how the principle of urban development corporation works before we go ahead with any others.
My only difficulty at this moment is that, having listened to the very learned argument about hybridity, I recognise that by including specifically in this amendment the reference to London we may be putting our heads completely in the jaws of the monster. I see the Minister is nodding his head and, in those circumstances, and as we have a long evening before us I do not propose to move this amendment.
Clause 131 [Urban development corporations]:
Lord BRUCE of DONINGTON Lord BRUCE of DONINGTON moved Amendment No. 158:
Page 113, line 30, at end insert—
("( ) An urban development corporation shall within fourteen days after the date of its establishment in accordance with subsections (1), (2) and (3) of this section have a registered office to which all communications and notices may be sent and notification of the situation of the registered office or of any subsequent change thereof shall be made as soon as maybe to the Secretary of State.")
The noble Lord said: My Lords, after the long discussion that has taken place about the role of the urban development corporations, in which a very great enthusiasm has been expressed for the functions which they are going to perform, and indeed described in the most glowing terms, I am afraid this amendment is somewhat of an anti-climax. The urban development corporation is going to have very considerable powers; its objectives are extremely extensive and indeed are set down, as your Lordships will notice, at Clause 132 of the Bill. They can
"acquire, hold, manage, reclaim and dispose of land".
They can
carry out building and other operations; and seek to ensure the provision of water, electricity, gas, sewerage and other services; carry on any business or undertaking for the purposes of the object;"
and then reminding one almost of the concluding sentence of any memorandum of an ordinary limited company, they can of course
"do anything necessary or expedient for the purposes of the object or for purposes incidental to those purposes".
To put my amendment briefly, all I am saying is that in order to do all these things they should have a registered office. It seems to me to be a very small point and I do not think there is anything particularly contentious about it. I am conscious of the fact that the words which I have used in my amendment are lifted without acknowledgment from the Companies' Act 1976, suitably adapted, and I have no doubt that at a later stage the noble Lord can probably find more suitable wording for it.
We do not know how many urban development corporations there will be,
614
but they are clearly going to be corporate bodies with a right to conclude contracts. Within the existing Bill, they are corporate bodies that can be sued; they can enter not only into contracts but into all kinds of business arrangements. Bearing in mind the fact that under Clause 132 (3)(d) they can "carry on any business or undertaking", I think the need for the urban development corporation to have a registered office is indeed self-evident. I must apologise for the triviality of the nature of this amendment. It is purely a practical business consideration and I sincerely trust that even though the wording I use may not be suitable, the Minister may take it on board. I beg to move.
Lord BELLWIN: My Lords, I entirely understand why the noble Lord, Lord Bruce, brings this amendment forward, but I would suggest to him that to have a statutory requirement for a registered office is not appropriate to a body like a UDC which will be appointed by the Secretary of State and will be answerable to him. As the noble Lord so rightly said, companies are required to have registered offices by the Companies' Acts so that documents can be served on them, particularly in legal proceedings, and evasion of service is rendered impossible. This is not appropriate for UDCs whose whereabouts of course will be public knowledge and whose status will be guaranteed by the supervision of the Secretary of State. For this reason I am confident that the noble Lord will feel able not to press this particular amendment. In practical terms, I think he will find that it will not be necessary because it does not have the problems that face the procedures required by private companies.
Lord BRUCE of DONINGTON: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his reply. I am still a little troubled. I think there should be some means whereby the corporation itself ought to have—if not a registered address, certainly a designated one. It is all very well to say that everybody knows where it is. I have been one of those engaged in investigatory activities in my professional life and I can assure the noble Lord that the ascertainment of addresses and their location even of some of the larger bodies, is not always a matter of the greatest ease.

615
Therefore, I do not think it would do any harm for the Secretary of State, when he complies with the provisions of Clause 131(4), where it says:
"An urban development corporation shall be a body corporate by such name as may be prescribed by the order establishing it."
I think it might possibly be wise to prescribe the address also and that would get over the difficulty, but so long as the noble Lord is seized of the point I am making which is a practical, non-controversial point, I am quite satisfied and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
6.49 p.m.
Lord BELLWIN Lord BELLWIN moved Amendment No. 159:
After Schedule 25, insert the following new schedule:

SCHEDULE
  VESTING OF LAND IN URBAN DEVELOPMENT CORPORATIONS;
    PART I

      MODIFICATION OF ENACTMENTS: ENGLAND AND WALES
      1. Paragraphs 6 to 14 and 16 of Schedule 3 to the Town and Country Planning Act 1968 shall have effect, in relation to orders under section 136 above, subject to the modifications specified in paragraphs 2 to 4 below.
      2. Any reference to a general vesting declaration shall be treated as a reference to an order under that section.
      3. The references in paragraphs 6 and 7 to the end of the period specified in a general vesting declaration shall be treated as references to the date on which such an order comes into force and the reference in paragraph 10 to the acquiring authority having made a general vesting declaration shall be treated as a reference to such an order having come into force.
      4. In paragraph 6—

      (a) the reference to every person on whom, under section 5 of the Compulsory Purchase Act 1965, the acquiring authority could have served a notice to treat, shall be treated as a reference to every person whose interest in the land to which such an order relates is vested by the order in the urban development corporation; and

      (b) paragraph (a) shall be omitted.

      5. Schedule 3A to that Act shall have effect, in relation to orders under section 136 above subject to the modifications specified in paragraphs 6 to 8 below.
      6. Any reference to a general vesting declaration shall be treated as a reference to an order under that section.
      7. The reference in paragraph 4(2) to the date on which the notice required by paragraph 4 of Schedule 3 is served on any person shall be treated as a reference to the date on which such an order comes into force.
      8. In paragraph 12—

      (a) sub-paragraph (1)(a) shall be omitted; and

      (b) the reference in sub-paragraph (1)(b) to the date on which a person first had knowledge of the execution of the general vesting declaration shall be treated as a reference to the date on which an order under section 136 above came into force.

      9. The Land Compensation Act 1961 shall have effect in relation to orders under section 136 above subject to the modifications specified in paragraphs 10 to 14 below.
      10. References to the date of service of a notice to treat shall be treated as references to the date on which an order under that section comes into force.
      11. Section 17(2) shall be treated as if for the words "the authority proposing to acquire it have served a notice to treat in respect thereof, or an agreement has been made for the sale thereof to that authority" there were substituted the words "an order section 136 of the Local Government, Planning and Land Act 1980 vesting the land in which the interest subsists in an urban development corporation has come into force, or an agreement has been made for the sale of the interest to such a corporation".
      12. In section 22—
      (a) subsection (2) shall be treated as if at the end of paragraph (c) there were added the words
      "or
      (d) where an order has been made under section 136 of the Local Government, Planning and Land Act 1980 vesting the land in which the interest subsists in an urban development corporation."; and
      (b) subsection (3) shall be treated as if in paragraph (a) the words "or (d)" were inserted after the words "paragraph (b)"
      13. Any reference to a notice to treat in section 39(2) shall be treated as a reference to an order under section 136 above.
      14. In Schedule 2, paragraph 2(2)(a) shall be treated as if the words "or the coming into force of an order under section 136 of the Local Government, Planning and Land Act 1980 for the vesting of the land in an urban development corporation" were inserted after the word "land".

    PART II

      MODIFICATION OF ENACTMENTS: SCOTLAND
      15. Paragraphs 6 to 13 and 16 to 39 of Schedule 24 to the Town and Country Planning (Scotland) Act 1972 shall have effect, in relation to orders under section 136 above, subject to the modifications specified in paragraphs 16 to 20 below.
      16. Any reference to a general vesting declaration shall be treated as a reference to an order under that section.
      17. The references in paragraphs 6 and 7 to the end of the period specified in a general vesting declaration shall be treated as references to the date on which such an order comes into force and the reference in paragraph 9 to the acquiring authority having made a general vesting declaration shall be treated as a reference to such an order having come into force.
      18. In paragraph 6—

      (a) the reference to every person on whom, under section 17 of the Lands Clauses Consolidation (Scotland) Act 1845, the acquiring authority could have served a notice to treat, shall be treated as a reference to every person whose interest in the land to which such an order relates is vested by the order in the urban development corporation: and

      (b) paragraph (a) shall be omitted.

      19. The reference in paragraph 20(2) to the date on which the notice required by paragraph 4 is served on any person shall be treated as a reference to the date on which such an order comes into force.
      20. In paragraph 29—

      (a) sub-paragraph (1)(a) shall be omitted; and

      (b) the reference in sub-paragraph (1)(b) to the date on which a person first had knowledge of the execution of the general vesting declaration shall be treated as a reference to the date on which an order under section 136 above came into force.

      21. The Land Compensation (Scotland) Act 1963 shall have effect in relation to orders under section 136 above subject to the modifications specified in paragraphs 22 to 26 below.
      22. References to the date of service of a notice to treat shall be treated as references to the date on which an order under that section comes into force.
      23. Section 25(2) shall be treated as if for the words "the authority proposing to acquire it have served a notice to treat in respect thereof, or an agreement has been made for the sale thereof to that authority" there were substituted the words "an order section 136 of the Local Government, Planning and Land Act 1980 vesting the land in which the interest subsists in an urban development corporation has come into force, or an agreement has been made for the sale of the interest to such a corporation."
      24. In section 30—
      (a) subsection (2) shall be treated as if at the end of paragraph (c) there were added the words
      "or
      (d) where an order has been made under section 136 of the Local Government, Planning and Land Act 1980 vesting the land in which the interest subsists in an urban development corporation."; and
      (b) subsection (3) shall be treated as if in paragraph (a) the words "or (2)(d)" were inserted after the words "subsection (2)(b)".
      25. Any reference to a notice to treat in section 45(2) shall be treated as a reference to an order under section 136 above.
      26. In Schedule 2, paragraph 1(2)(a) shall be treated as if the words "or the coming into force of an order under section 136 of the Local Government, Planning and Land Act 1980 for the vesting of the land in an urban development corporation" were inserted after the word "land".").
      The noble Lord said: My Lords, this new schedule is needed because of the amendment we have tabled to Clause 136 (Amendment No. 164), which we shall
      618
      come to shortly. As drafted we believe that Clause 136 lacks sufficient detail to make the vesting of land provision workable. We therefore consider it essential to use on the more complex provisions on vesting declarations which already exist in other statutes.
      Amendment No. 164 will insert new subsections (4) and (4A) into Clause 136. New subsection (4) will provide that a vesting order made under Clause 136 shall have the same effect as a vesting declaration under Section 30 of the Town and Country Planning Act 1968. The new schedule proposed by this amendment will make the necessary technical modifications to Schedule 3 and 3A of the 1968 Act so that Section 30 can have effect in relation to vesting orders made under Clause 136. Amendment No. 164 and this new schedule do not extend the scope of Clause 136. They simply ensure that the existing statutes on land compensation and vesting declaration apply smoothly and without any confusion to land vested under this clause. With this assurance I commend this amendment to your Lordships. I beg to move.
      Clause 133 [Exclusion of functions]:
      Lord BELLWIN Lord BELLWIN moved Amendment No. 161:
      Page 115, line 6, leave out ("are exercisable by urban development corporations") and insert ("may be exercisable by an urban development corporation").
      The noble Lord said: My Lords, in speaking to this amendment I would also speak to Amendment No. 162. This amendment is needed in order to make it clear that the power to specify the functions of individual UDCs could be exercised without having to make a fresh constitution order under Clause 131. It has always been our intention that it should be possible to modify the functions of a UDC from time to time in light of the prevailing conditions in the urban development area and in the country generally. Without this amendment there would be doubt whether it would be possible to do this except by constituting the UDC afresh each time. I hope, therefore, that your Lordships will agree that this is a sensible amendment. I should stress that the amendment does not

      619
      remove the requirement for affirmative approval by each House before the UDCs functions can be modified. That safeguard would remain unchanged. I beg to move.
      Lord BELLWIN Lord BELLWIN moved Amendment No. 162:
      Page 115, line 11, at end insert—
      ("(2) An order under section 131 above may amend any provision of a previous order under that section which was included in that order by virtue of subsection (1) above.
      (3) Nothing in subsection (2) above shall prejudice the operation of section 14 of the Interpretation Act 1978 (power to amend orders etc.)".).
      Lord BELLWIN Lord BELLWIN moved Amendment No. 163:
      After Clause 135, insert the following new clause:
      ("Consultation with local authorities
      —(1) An urban development corporation shall prepare a code of practice as to consultation of the relevant local authorities about the exercise of its powers.
      (2) In this section "the relevant local authorities" means local authorities the whole or any part of whose area is included in the urban development area.
      (3) Preparation of the code shall be completed not later than the expiration of the period of 12 months from the date of the establishment of the corporation.
      (4) A corporation may from time to time revise the whole or any part of its code.
      (5) A corporation shall prepare and revise its code in consultation with the relevant local authorities.".).
      The noble Lord said: My Lords, I am confident that this new clause and the associated amendment to Schedule 29 will be welcomed. These amendments honour commitments which Ministers have given about the lacunae in the Bill on the question of consultation between UDCs and local authorities in the area. We regard a good working relationship between UDCs and local authorities as crucial to the success of this initiative, and we hope the same degree of good cooperation can be achieved in UDAs as has been experienced in many of the new towns. These amendments write into the Bill a requirement for UDCs to devise a code of consultation with the local authorities in the area. UDCs will then be required to report annually on how the consultation arrangement has been
      620
      operated during the year. Your Lordships will see from our amendment to Schedule 29 that we shall require the UDCs to report such consultation annually, and this is, therefore, an important provision. I beg to move.
      Viscount SIMON: My Lords, may I ask whether there is a mistake in the second line of subsection (1) which refers to a code of practice as to consultation of the relevant local authorities". Should it not be "with"?
      Lord BELLWIN: My Lords, I should think that is right. May I thank the noble Viscount for that? If that should not be so, of course, I will come back, but it sounds absolutely right, and I am grateful to the noble Viscount.
      The DEPUTY SPEAKER (Lord Jacques): My Lords, the Question is that this amendment, with that qualification, be agreed to.
      Clause 136 [Vesting by order in corporation]:
      Lord BELLWIN Lord BELLWIN moved Amendment No. 164:
      Page 117, line 4, leave out from beginning to ("shall") in line 19, and insert—
      ("(4) An order under this section shall have the same effect as a declaration under section 30 of the Town and Country Planning Act 1968 or, in Scotland section 278 of the Town and Country Planning (Scotland) Act 1972 (both of which relate to general vesting declarations) except that, in relation to such orders, the enactments mentioned in Schedule [Vesting of land in urban development corporations] shall have effect subject to the modifications specified in that Schedule.
      (4A) Compensation under the Land Compensation Act 1961 or, in Scotland, the Land Compensation (Scotland) Act 1963, as applied by subsection (4) above and Schedule [Vesting of land in urban development corporations] to this Act.").
      The noble Lord said: My Lords, we have already discussed the new schedule provided for by Amendment No. 159, which is associated with this amendment. As I explained, these are technical amendments which apply the provisions of existing statutes on land compensation and general vesting declarations to vesting orders made under Clause 136. We believe that these amendments will remove

      621
      uncertainties about the effects of vesting orders which, if the clause were left in its present form, could cause difficulties.
      Lord BELLWIN Lord BELLWIN moved Amendment No. 164XA:
      After Clause 139, insert the following new clause:
      ("Land compensation
      .—(1) The following paragraph shall be inserted after paragraph 4 of Schedule 1 to the Land Compensation Act 1961 (descriptions of actual or prospective development of which account is not to be taken in assessing compensation or the effect of which is to reduce compensation payable in respect of adjacent land in the same ownership which has benefited by the development) and after paragraph 4 of Schedule 1 to the Land Compensation (Scotland) Act 1963 (which makes similar provision for Scotland):—

      "4A. Where any of the relevant land forms part of an area designated as an urban development area by an order under section 122 of the Local Government, Planning and Land Act 1980.

      Development of any land other than the relevant land, in the course of the development or re-development of that area or as an urban development area."

      (2) At the end of Part II of Schedule 1 to the Land Compensation Act 1961 there shall be added:—

    PART III

      SPECIAL PROVISIONS AS TO URBAN DEVELOPMENT AREAS
      10. For the avoidance of doubt it is hereby declared—

      (a) that, in assessing in the circumstances described in paragraph 4A in the first column of Part I of this schedule the increase or diminution in value to be left out of account by virtue of section 6 of this Act, no increase or diminution in value is to be excluded from being left out of account; and

      (b) that, in assessing in those circumstances the increase in value to be taken into account by virtue of section 7 of this Act, no increase in value is to be excluded from being taken into account merely because it is attributable—

      (i) to any development of land which was carried out before the area was designated as an urban development area;

      (ii) to any development or prospect of development of land outside the urban development area;

      (iii) to any development or prospect of development of land by an authority other than the acquiring authority, possessing compulsory purchase powers.

      11. Paragraph 10 of this Schedule shall have effect in relation to any increase or diminution in value to be left out of account by virtue of any rule of law relating to the assessment of
      622
      compensation in respect of compulsory acquisition as it has effect in relation to any increase or diminution in value to be left out of account by virtue of section 6 of this Act.".
      (3) In section 6 of the Land Compensation Act 1961—

      (a) in subsection (1)(b), for "4" substitute "4A"; and

      (b) add at the end of subsection (2) the words "and the provisions of Part III of that Schedule shall have effect with regard to paragraph 4A ".

      (4) At the end of Part II of Schedule 1 to the Land Compensation (Scotland) Act 1963 there shall be added:—

    PART III

      SPECIAL PROVISIONS AS TO URBAN DEVELOPMENT AREAS
      6. For the avoidance of doubt it is hereby declared—

      (a) that, in assessing in the circumstances described in paragraph 4A in the first column of Part I of this schedule the increase or diminution in value to be left out of account by virtue of section 13 of this Act no increase or diminution of value is to be excluded from being left out of account; and

      (b) that, in assessing in those circumstances the increase in value to be taken into account by virtue of section 14 of this Act, no increase in value is to be excluded from being taken into account,

      merely because it is attributable—

      (i) to any development of land which was carried out before the area was designated as an urban development area;

      (ii) to any development or prospect of development of land outside the urban development area;

      (iii) to any development or prospect of development of land by an authority, other than the acquiring authority, possessing compulsory purchase powers.

      7. Paragraph 6 of this schedule shall have effect in relation to any increase or diminution in value to be left out of account by virtue of any rule of law relating to the assessment of compensation in respect of compulsory acquisition as it has effect in relation to any increase or diminution in value to be left out of account by virtue of section 13 of this Act.".
      (5) In section 13 of the Land Compensation (Scotland) Act 1963—

      (a) in subsection (1)(b), for "4", where it first occurs, substitute "4A"; and

      (b) add at the end of subsection (2A) the words "and the provisions of Part III of that Schedule shall have effect with regard to paragraph 4A ".").

      The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is a highly technical amendment. It is needed in order to adapt to the circumstances of urban development areas the well-established principle in land compensation law that the value effect of development which is part of the scheme underlying the compulsory acquisition of a piece of land, which would not have been

      623
      likely to be carried out in the absence of the scheme, is disregarded in assessing the compensation payable. It sounds complicated, but an example may make it clear. Where a public authority has constructed a road to service a proposed new housing estate, in acquiring the land for the housing estate the compensation payable by the authority will probably exclude that part of the land value attributable to the road. Not unreasonably, the law does not require public authorities to compensate landowners for that part of the land value derived from the public works which are part of the scheme underlying the acquisition.
      The question of exactly what the scheme underlying the acquisition consists of in individual cases is an operation of fact for valuers, the lands tribunals and ultimately the courts to decide. Schedule 1 of the Land Compensation Act 1961 lays down guidance in specific cases, notably in the case of an area designated as a new town. The purpose of this clause is, first, to add a new case to Schedule 1 for urban development areas along the lines of existing cases which apply to the new towns. Unless noble Lords would like me to do so, I will not elaborate any more on what the amendment sets out to do. This, like many of the other amendments in this Part, seeks to give clarification and remove uncertainty. I beg to move.
      Clause 143 [Corporation as planning authority]:
      Lord BELLWIN Lord BELLWIN moved Amendment No. 164YA:
      Page 123, line 16, at end insert—
      ("(4A) In relation to an urban development corporation which is the local planning authority by virtue of an order under subsection (1) above, section 270 of the 1971 Act (application to local planning authorities of provisions as to planning control and enforcement) shall have effect for the purposes of Part III of the 1971 Act prescribed by that order, and in relation to the kinds of development so prescribed, as if—

      (a) in subsection (1), the reference to the development by local authorities of land in respect of which they are the local planning authorities included a reference to the development by the corporation of land in respect of which it is the local planning authority;

      (b) in subsection (2)—

      (i) in paragraph (a) the words "the
      624
      corporation" were substituted for the words "such an authority" and the word "corporation" were substituted for the words "local planning authority"; and

      (ii) in paragraph (b) the word "corporation were substituted for the words local planning authority".").

      The noble Lord said: My Lords, this amendment clears up an anomaly in the Bill whereby an urban development corporation cannot under the present provisions have recourse to the power under Section 270 of the 1971 Town and Country Planning Act available to a local authority acting as local planning authority. The amendment will enable the UDC similarly to obtain deemed planning permission for the development of land in respect of which it is made local planning authority by order under Clause 143(1). We are not by any means proposing to give a UDC powers to obtain planning permission for land for which it is the local planning authority which are not also available to local authorities. UDCs will have to follow the same procedures as do local authorities under the Town and Country Planning General Regulations 1976. I beg to move.
      Lord BELLWIN Lord BELLWIN moved Amendment No. 164YB:
      Page 124, line 10, at end insert—
      ("(8A) In relation to an urban development corporation which is the planning authority by virtue of an order under subsection (5) above, section 256 of the 1972 Act (application to planning authorities of provisions as to planning control and enforcement) shall have effect for the purposes of Part III of the 1972 Act prescribed by that order, and in relation to the kinds of development so prescribed, as if—

      (a) in subsection (1), the reference to the development by local authorities of land in respect of which they are the planning authorities included a reference to the development by the corporation of land in respect of which it is the planning authority;

      (b) in subsection (2)—

      (1) in paragraph (a) the words "the corporation" were substituted for the words "such an authority" and the word "corporation" were substituted for the words" local planning authority"; and

      (ii) in paragraph (b) the word "corporation" were substituted for the words" local planning authority".").

      The noble Lord said: My Lords, this amendment provides the equivalent for Scotland of Amendment No. 164YA for

      625
      England and Wales. It will enable a UDC in Scotland to obtain deemed planning permission for the development of land for which it is made the planning authority under Clause 143(5). I beg to move.
      Lord SANDYS: My Lords, I think that this might be a suitable moment to adjourn and reassemble at 7.45 p.m., to give further consideration on Report to this Bill. Therefore, I beg to move that further consideration on Report be now adjourned.

      TENANTS' RIGHTS, ETC. (SCOTLAND) AMENDMENT BILL [H.L.]
      7 p.m.
      Bill read 3a: an amendment (privilege) made.
      The Earl of MANSFELD: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill do now pass. We have examined this small Bill, which essentially contains but one provision of substance, with considerable thoroughness in the course of some five hours of discussion at Committee and Report stages. It has emerged from this close scrutiny unchanged apart from a narrower specification of what is meant by the term "elderly" in connection with amenity housing. However, I think that the debates which we have had have been beneficial perhaps in demonstrating the fundamental difference of view between the Government and the Opposition which needs to be understood as the background to Clause 1 of the Bill.
      Noble Lords opposite would have wished to see excluded from the right to buy all houses which are used to house elderly people regardless of whether those houses were different from general needs housing. They believe that old people should not be allowed to buy their homes because the house might not always be used by an old person in future. I have acknowledged the sincerity of their views in the course of our discussions, and I do so again. Nevertheless, I believe that their approach is the wrong one because it pays insufficient regard to the wishes
      626
      of old people themselves. The Government believe very strongly that individual tenants should have the right to choose whether they wish to own their homes or continue renting, and we believe that elderly people deserve that right as much as anybody else. After all, more than 30 per cent. of public sector tenants in Scotland are over pensionable age and it would be a mockery of the right to buy to withhold it from so large a group, many of whom entered the public sector when there was no genuine choice of housing tenure and never have had and never will have a realistic chance of enjoying the benefits of home ownership except through the right to buy. We must remember that any extension of this Bill would have had the effect of stopping elderly people who wish to buy their homes from doing so. The Government are not attacking elderly people; they are giving them equal rights with other public sector tenants.
      That is not to say that there are not circumstances in which concern for the individual tenant's rights must be subordinated to some extent to recognition of the community's interest in the availability of houses for the elderly which are different from the general run of houses and which are in short supply. The Government have always taken account of this and there are existing provisions for that purpose in the Tenants' Rights Act, which are extended by this Bill. However, we do not accept that the community has a sufficiently strong need to retain houses which are not genuinely different from ordinary houses to justify overriding the rights of tenants. That is the basis upon which the Bill is drafted and upon which I have defended its drafting. The Bill doubles the number of specially adapted houses for the elderly which can be excluded from the right to buy, without taking away the choice of selling the houses with a right of pre-emption which the Act already provides, and the Government believe that this is both right for Scotland and consistent with what has been done in England and Wales, where the number of possible exclusions was also doubled by a similar change to the Housing Act. In the particular circumstances which I have outlined I beg to move.
      Moved, That the Bill do now pass.—(The Earl of Mansfield.)
      7.5 p.m.
      Lord ROSS of MARNOCK: My Lords, I have no intention of addressing any further remarks on this Bill. I think that I have let the House know exactly how I feel about it and how it has been handled over this past week or 10 days. However, I cannot but respond to the noble Earl the Minister. He said that 30 per cent. of local authority houses in Scotland are occupied by elderly people, by pensioners. That is true, and most of them are in receipt of rate rebates, rent rebates and supplementary benefits; and if he thinks for a minute that they are all racing to buy their houses, then he is quite out of touch with the public in Scotland.
      This Government did not introduce this Bill out of the goodness of their hearts and their desire to help the local authorities in fulfilling their obligations to old people. It was forced upon them by what happened in another place and, indeed, by what happened in this place in respect of the English Bill. Promises were made publicly in another place by the Leader of the House and by the Secretary of State for the Environment, but the Secretary of State for Scotland was silent, although at the time when the questions were put and were answered there was a Scottish Minister sitting silent on the Bench. Now the Bill will go to another place where the main actors in that performance will be present. It is their good faith, their words, that will be on trial. Moreover, the people who took part in the negotiations that led to the promises being given will also be there. So in that gladiatorial arena shall the battle continue.
      The fact that in Scotland there are so many old people in local authority houses means that an even greater responsibility falls upon local authorities there to provide the right kind of house for old people than is the case in England and Wales, and it means that the more we erode that stock—and it will be the best houses that will go—the less will the local authorities be able to meet their obligations. I admit that one must balance the rights of the individual against the responsibilities of the community through its local council. But when it comes to that, I know quite well where the balance
      628
      should fall: it should retain the right number of the right kind of houses for letting to old people in Scotland. When we look at the figures—and they have been quoted—we find that over 400,000 such houses for old people have been exempt from sale in England; the number in Scotland is under 12,000. I repeat, it is under 12,000. Where the need is greater the proportion is not nearly so high in respect of numbers of houses.
      When the Minister of State talks about categories of housing he fails to appreciate the whole development history of Scottish housing and what led to that particular position. It is important for him to realise that it is essential to have not only amenity housing in local authority stock, but what he called—and he has proved himself in more than one Bill to be the master of the infelicitous phrase—the little houses. Those little houses are important and they should be available for older people. They may well be occupying very much larger houses elsewhere in housing schemes at present, but they are waiting to get into this type of house that has been built for them and to be let to them. If they are sold off, of course they are lost, lost to the category and lost to the local authority. I have said all this before. Let the battle be carried on elsewhere. However, I regret that once again the Government have failed to be tactful in respect of their relationship between Scotland and England. They need not be surprised if they raise the hackles of people who say, "Just look at it; just look at the different treatment for Scotland as compared with England! "I am seriously concerned about this matter. It is the second time that I have raised the point today.
      Why is it that in Scotland, where they have no mandate, they are less generous in respect of leaving old people's houses to the local authorities to let than they are in England, where they have a mandate and certainly a comfortable electoral majority, and where they are more generous to the local authorities? It is a sad reflection upon the reading of the needs of Scotland and the balance of importance of the individual as against the greater number of individuals who are represented by the activities of the local authority.
      7.12 p.m.
      The Earl of MANSFIELD: My Lords, perhaps I should respond shortly to the noble Lord, Lord Ross. I am sorry that there is no one sitting on the Liberal Benches, because the Liberals have played a part in the examination of this little Bill, as indeed has the noble Lord, Lord Ross. I am grateful to all of them to the extent that it certainly brought home to us the cleavage of opinion that exists as between noble Lords on this side of the House and noble Lords on the other. We were certainly forced, if that is the word, or at any rate constrained and made to look at the provisions of the Bill in order to ensure that the drafting was right and that the intentions of the Bill were what we intended them to be. I shall not go over the old ground again, as, in fact, the noble Lord did not.
      I am bound to say that the noble Lord tries to have the best of both worlds. In the Local Government, Planning and Land (No. 2) Bill he castigates me and, indeed, divides the House because on a matter of United Kingdom policy he says that we ought to have a different Bill for Scotland, although the policies are exactly the same and the language to be employed can quite easily and neatly fit into the same Bill. Of this Bill, which is a Scottish Bill, drafted by Scotsmen for Scotsmen and designed to fit in with the law of heritable property as it applies to Scotland, he again says, "No, we cannot have this; we should harmonise the English and Scottish law and adopt the phraseology of the English and Scottish law and adopt the phraseology of the English Act"; although, as I have tried to point out to him on so many occasions, it is thoroughly infelicitous—and that is being kind to it—and would not fit in with Scottish conditions.
      Therefore, I am reinforced in the opinion that I have held throughout, that this is a Scottish Bill, designed by Scots for Scots. I think that we have done the right thing by drafting it in the way we have and bringing it forward in the way we have, totally distinct from the English Act. I have paid tribute to noble Lords, and it is genuine—that is my expression of gratitude. I am equally grateful that the Bill now leaves your Lordships to go on its journey down the corridor to another place.
      On Question, Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.
      Lord LYELL: My Lords, I beg to move that this House do now adjourn during pleasure until 7.45 p.m.
      [The Sitting was suspended from 7.14 to 7.45 p.m.]

      LOCAL GOVERNMENT, PLANNING AND LAND (No. 2) BILL
      Consideration on Report resumed.
      Lord BELLWIN Lord BELLWIN moved Amendment No. 164ZA:
      After clause 143, insert the following new clause:
      ("Planning: Corporation and local highway authority.
      (".—(1) The reference to the local planning authority in paragraph 17 of Schedule 16 to the Local Government Act 1972 (duty to include in a development order under section 24 of the 1971 Act provision enabling a local authority to impose restrictions on the grant by the local planning authority of planning permission for certain descriptions of development) shall not be construed as including a reference to an urban development corporation who are the local planning authority by virtue of an order under section 143 above, and no provision of a development order which is included in it by virtue of that paragraph is to be construed as applying to such a corporation.
      (2) The Secretary of State may include in a development order under section 24 of the 1971 Act provision enabling a local highway authority to impose restrictions on the grant by an urban development corporation who are the local planning authority of planning permission under the 1971 Act for such descriptions of development as may be specified in the order.")
      The noble Lord said: My Lords, this new clause enables the Secretary of State to limit the powers of restriction by the local highway authority over an urban development corporation acting as local planning authority, to those kinds of development that are specified in a development order. In commending this amendment I must make it plain that the Government accept that highway safeguards are important in urban development areas. However, the central position of the UDC, and the process of renewal that it will be carrying forward, mean that the local highway authority's powers should

      631
      be tailored more precisely to the circumstances of UDAs. This amendment streamlines the process by which a UDC is able to grant planning permission to a proposal. I beg to move.
      Clause 144 [Building control]:
      Lord BELLWIN Lord BELLWIN moved Amendment No. 164ZB:
      Page 124, line 28, at end insert ("boroughs").
      The noble Lord said: My Lords, may I also speak to Amendments Nos. 164ZC, ZD, ZE and ZF, and say that these are technical, tidying-up amendments to this clause. They do not make substantive changes to the clause, and clarify the terminology used elsewhere in the clause. On this basis, I beg to move.
      Lord BELLWIN Lord BELLWIN moved Amendment No. 164ZC:
      Page 124, line 32, after ("London") insert ("boroughs").
      The noble Lord said: My Lords, I have spoken to this amendment. I beg to move.
      Lord BELLWIN Lord BELLWIN moved Amendment No. 164ZD:
      Page 124, line 41, leave out ("(including a local Act)").
      The noble Lord said: My Lords, I have spoken to this amendment. I beg to move.
      Lord BELLWIN Lord BELLWIN moved Amendment No. 164ZE:
      Page 125, line 5, leave out ("regulations or enactments") and insert ("legislation").
      The noble Lord said: My Lords, I have spoken to this amendment. I beg to move.
      Lord BELLWIN Lord BELLWIN moved Amendment No. 164ZE:
      Page 125, line 19, at end insert—
      (" "building legislation" means—

      (a) the London building legislation;

      632

      (b) any other enactments under which the corporation is to exercise building control functions; and

      (c) building regulations.").

      The noble Lord said: My Lords, I have spoken to this amendment. I beg to move.
      Clause 150 [Highways]:
      Viscount SIMON Viscount SIMON moved Amendment No. 164A:
      Page 128, line 30, after ("may") insert ("provided it has consulted with the street works authority prior to the execution of such street works)").
      The noble Viscount said: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Evans of Claughton, I rise to move Amendment No. 164A. I think it would be for the convenience of the House if I spoke also to Amendment No. 164B, as they run together. These amendments were put forward by my noble friend at the Committee stage. It was very late at night, and I think it was the noble Lord, Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal, who gave the reply, which did not seem to take us very much further. My noble friend withdrew the amendments on the understanding that he could bring them forward again, which is what I am now doing on his behalf.
      This is a fairly simple question. It relates to Clause 150 which provides:
      "When any street works have been executed in a private street … in an urban development area, the urban development corporation may serve a notice on the street works authority requiring it to declare the street (or part) to be a highway"
      and to take on the responsibility for maintaining it.
      My noble friend's first amendment suggests that they can ask to have the street taken over only provided the street authority has been consulted before the execution of the works, which seems a sensible way of doing it. The clause provides that if the street works authority think the work is not up to the standard they need, they can apply to the court for an order. That seems an unnecessarily complicated way of doing it and that it would be better for the UDA to discuss with the street works authority before they do the work, so limiting the amount of discussion afterwards and the necessity to refer to the court.
      The second amendment is an extension of what is at present in the clause. The clause provides that the street authority can object and take action through the court if the work done on the private street has not brought it up to the standard of the UDA. My noble friend is suggesting that it should be brought up to the standard of the area in which the street works authority operates, perhaps outside the area of the UDA, rather than just bringing it up to a standard which might be lower within the area of the UDA. I beg to move.
      Lord BELLWIN: My Lords, I hope the noble Viscount, Lord Simon, particularly in view of what was said earlier when we were discussing this whole area of UDCs, will accept that the Government attach considerable importance to consultation with local authorities which would be concerned with UDCs. That is why we tabled Amendment No. 163 and why we shall now have a requirement for a UDC to prepare a code of practice as to consultation with the relevant local authorities about the exercise of its power.
      The kind of issues referred to by the noble Viscount appear to be related to the exercise by UDCs of the powers under Clause 150. If that is so, I consider that they would be among the items which could be included in a code. In view of that, I do not see why we need a separate provision requiring consultation over street works. I recognise that a street works authority, where there is to be a UDA, might be anxious about any proposals for road adoption which a UDC might have, and that surely is where the code comes in. If we are successfully to regenerate the urban development areas, it is important that access is created and improved between the areas of the dock estate and the remainder of the UDA and locality. It is also important that such access is created in ways that are realistic and it therefore seems important that the standards by which such road schemes are judged relate to the UDA and not necessarily to the wider locality.
      Thus, it is through the consultation mechanism that a UDC and a street works authority will be able to settle on standards that are mutually acceptable. That is the hope and anticipation, and perhaps the noble Viscount will take the view that we
      634
      should see what happens and will not press the amendment. With everything we have said, especially in these really new areas—in the sense that we are moving into new fields—that will be the test at the end of the day.
      Viscount SIMON: I shall be happy to rely on the code of practice, my Lords. There was only one point on which I was not sure, being nothing like so well informed on these subjects as my noble friend Lord Evans of Claughton, and that was whether the street works authority was necessarily the local authority within the meaning of the consultation.
      Lord BELLWIN: My Lords, I am sorry to have to answer the noble Viscount by saying that it can but it may not necessarily be the same; it will depend on the kind of area it is. We debated this point at length previously. If UDCs should ever go beyond the two into urban and metropolitan areas, then it will depend on the circumstances. The county authorities and metropolitan areas have certain functions as regards highways and streets, whereas the district authorities do not have that function. That makes it difficult for me to give a simple answer to the noble Viscount, much as I should like to do so, but I think he follows the gist of what I have said.
      Viscount SIMON: I do indeed, my Lords, and I am grateful to the Minister for that explanation. I think it can be assumed that the code of practice will cover relationships not only with local authorities but with other authorities, possibly even with public utilities and the like. I am sure the code of practice could be extended to cover this case, and as my noble friend would no doubt be happy with that I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
      Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
      [Amendment No. 164B not moved.]
      Clause 156 [Supply of goods, etc. by local authorities]:
      7.56 p.m.
      Viscount SIMON Viscount SIMON moved Amendment No. 164C:
      Page 134, line 21, at end insert—
      ("(4) Notwithstanding the provisions of this section and without prejudice to the generality

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      of section 132(3)(b) and 132(3)(c) of this Act, a local authority may enter into agency arrangements with any urban development corporation for the purpose of achieving the object of that section.").
      The noble Viscount said: My Lords, I am almost out of my depth on this one, which I move on behalf of my noble friend Lord Evans of Claughton, who raised this point in Committee when he was not entirely happy with the reply he received. He wants to be quite sure that the UDC can act as an agent for the local authority and, equally, that the local authority can act as an agent for the UDC for the purpose of achieving the objects of this provision. My noble friend thought reluctantly he might have to return to the matter because those who had been advising him on it, Merseyside County Council, were not entirely satisfied with the reply given by the Minister. I beg to move.
      Lord BELLWIN: My Lords, as Clause 156 provides for local authorites to supply goods and services to a UDC, we have enabled local authorities to be paid for a wider range of goods and services that a UDC might require. What, however, we do not wish to do is to provide for local authorities to become agents of a UDC for the central purpose of achieving the object of the UDC under Clause 132. We should not have taken steps to set up UDCs in the first place if we thought there was a likelihood that the main function would be contacted out in the manner suggested in the amendment. That is the problem and I recall that when we discussed this in Committee there was not a great deal between the noble Lord, Lord Evans of Claughton, and myself over this. He just wanted to see whether he should take it further, which obviously he has done, but my answer is the one I have given; namely, that the amendment would go further than we believe is necessary in practice.
      Viscount SIMON: My Lords, I am obliged for what the Minister said. Obviously, it would be rather ridiculous if a local authority had a number of professional services at its disposal just across the way and a UDC should then have to set up professional services of its own to deal with such matters as drainage, inspection or anything of that kind.
      636
      Judging from what the noble Lord said, I think that the point is covered, that the UDC can employ the professional services of the adjacent local authority.
      Lord BELLWIN: My Lords, with the leave of the House, may I say that at the end of the day it will very much be a matter of what makes good sense. As the noble Viscount rightly said, if the situation is obvious and logical it would be silly of those who are running UDCs not to take advantage of what is available; I should certainly hope that they would. But there is a great difference between that and spelling out obligations, and it is probably there that we would slightly part company.
      Viscount SIMON: My Lords, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
      Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
      Schedule 29 [Urban Development Corporations: Finance etc.]:
      8.1 p.m.
      Lord BRUCE of DONINGTON Lord BRUCE of DONINGTON moved Amendment No. 165:
      Page 271, leave out from beginning of line 36 to end of line 12 on page 272 and insert—
      ("10.—(1) A corporation shall cause accounting records to be kept in accordance with the provisions of this section.
      (2) The accounting records shall be sufficient to show and explain the corporation's transactions.
      (3) The accounting records shall be such as to

      (a) disclose with reasonable accuracy, at any time, the financial position of the corporation at that time; and

      (b) enable the members of the corporation to ensure that any balance sheet prepared by them shows a true and fair view of the corporation's state of affairs at the end of the financial year to which it relates and that any revenue account prepared by them shows a true and fair view of the financial result of its activities in the financial year to which it relates.

      (4) The accounting records shall in particular contain—

      (a) entries from day to day of all sums received and expended by the corporation and the matters in respect of which the receipts and expenditure takes place; and

      (b) a record of the assets and liabilities of the corporation; and

      (c) where the corporation's activities involve carrying on any business or undertaking for the purposes of subsection (3)(b) of section 132 of this Act, the statements mentioned in subsection (5) below.

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      (5) The statements referred to in subsection (4)(c) above are—

      (a) statements of the stock held by each business or undertaking at the end of each financial year of the corporation;

      (b) all statements of stocktakings from which any such statement as is mentioned in paragraph (a) above has been prepared; and

      (c) except in the case of goods sold by way of ordinary retail trade, statements of all goods sold and purchased in sufficient detail to enable the goods and the buyers and sellers to be identified.

      (6) Subject to the provisions of sections 9, 10, 11 and 12 of this Act (Accounting Provisions applicable to every development body undertaking construction or maintenance work by any direct labour organisation established by it) a corporation shall:

      (a) in respect of its activities in each of the five categories set out at subsection 3(a), (b), (c), (d) and (e) of section 132 of this Act, prepare a revenue account showing a true and fair view of the financial result of the corporation having undertaken such activities in the financial year to which it relates;

      (b) in respect of activities as a whole, prepare a balance sheet showing a true and fair view of its affairs at the end of the financial year to which it relates.").

      The noble Lord said: My Lords, we now embark on discussion of that wildly exciting part of the Bill that is concerned with accounting matters! I am acutely sensible of the fact that particularly at this time of night such a subject does not exactly make for exciting conversation. I move this amendment for two reasons. The first is a political reason, with which I shall deal shortly, and the other is a purely technical reason. The urban development corporations are quasi-autonomous non-governmental organisations—Quangos for short. I believe that at the moment two are envisaged, but there may be more. I am bound to say immediately that the sudden affection of Her Majesty's Government for the establishment of Quangos is something that we note with mild interest, though not necessarily with enthusiasm.
      It is when we come to the accounting aspect of the matter that we begin to understand the noble Lord's sense of relativity, or rather his Government's sense of political values. Your Lordships will remember that when we were discussing Part III of the Bill, which deals with, among other things, the accounts to be rendered to the Secretary of State by direct labour organisations, we found the matter laid out in very considerable detail in the
      638
      body of the Bill itself. If one turns to Part III, one will find a whole series of accounting provisions which are set out in very great detail but which, I say with the greatest possible respect, will have the practical effect of hamstringing most DLOs' accounting departments and which will give rise to a certain amount of confusion at the noble Lord's department's headquarters in Marsham Street. In fact when assessed in their totality these provisions, judged by orthodox standards of accounting, will amount to a load of nonsense. Be that as it may, they are there in detail in the Bail.
      It should be borne in mind that when your Lordships were discussing the accounts of a direct labour organisation under the control of a local authority you were considering an organisation which is subject to local democratic control. The direct labour organisation of a local authority is finally responsible to the local electorate. Yet in the Bill there is a terrific spiel of accounting provisions—and they are in the body of the Bill itself.
      Now we come to the Quango, to the urban development corporation. It, too, has considerable functions to perform. It has very considerable responsibilities, which are outlined in, I believe, Clause 132 of the Bill. The constitution of an urban development corporation is defined in Schedule 25. It is responsible to no one at all. The urban development corporation has no democratic responsibility to any local body of electors. There are no public checks affecting an urban development corporation in its locality. It is the Minister's creature. Indeed, when the party opposite were discussing Quangos in a somewhat less enthusiastic way they very often made that point themselves.
      When it comes to an urban development corporation keeping accounts and to the provisions that are laid down for those accounts what do we find?—that those provisions are not contained in the body of the Bill at all. They are merely referred to in Clause 157, where it says that Schedule 29 shall apply. So the accounting provisions relating to these new Quangos, the urban development corporations, are relegated to a schedule, to Schedule 29, Part III, to which I now turn.
      If your Lordships will examine Part III of Schedule 29, on pages 271 and 272 of

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      the Bill, you will see that these provisions are comparatively modest in content compared with the very comprehensive provisions laid down for direct labour organisations. It is stated in Part III at paragraph 10(1),
      "A corporation shall keep proper accounts and other records in relation to them".
      Well, magnificent! But that refers to a non-elected body. Why is it that the accounting provisions, adequate though they may be from the professional standpoint, should be couched in terms far more general and permissive than those relating to the DLOs?
      These new urban development corporations which, as we have learnt, will not have registered addresses, will be responsible for quite considerable financial operations. They will receive grants of all kinds. They will be able to obtain loans and to carry out a whole series of financial transactions. As we have seen from Clause 132, they will be able to conduct businesses. In fact they will be able to undertake a much more comprehensive range of work than will DLOs, yet without any tendering disciplines of the kind laid down in Part III of the Bill. Urban development corporations can engage in business, and in those businesses they are not governed by the same conditions as are DLOs; for example, they are not required to achieve a certain rate of return on capital employed based on the current cost accounting convention. No conditions at all are laid down for them. They can just go merrily ahead.
      In those circumstances, I come to the conclusion—and I trust that it will find favour with the Minister—that the minimum standard that we ought to insist upon for these new Quangos, these urban development corporations, should be the standard as laid down in the Companies Act 1976 for ordinary commercial enterprises. So your Lordships will find that in Amendment No. 165 I have endeavoured, perhaps in my own unskilled way, to reproduce for the urban development corporations, suitably adapted to meet the provisions of the Bill, the requirements with which an ordinary limited company must comply in keeping proper accounts. If the noble Lord examines Amendment No. 165, subject to what his parliamentary draftsmen and his illustrious
      640
      officials may say, I think he will find that that adaptation has been generally accomplished. Perhaps odd points need polishing up, but if that is so they can always be corrected at a later stage.
      My Lords, is there any reason why this non-elected body, with considerable finances at its disposal and with very wide activities taking it into many spheres of interest which noble Lords opposite might think would normally be the prerogative of private enterprise, should not be subject to the same accounting disciplines which apply to ordinary private enterprise firms? I could not be fairer than that. Your Lordships will see that I have been bending over backwards in the accounting provisions I have suggested to accommodate myself to the political philosophy of noble Lords opposite. This, therefore, should not be a cause for complaint. After all, it is all fair competition, and bears comparison. I sincerely hope, therefore, that the noble Lord will agree that these new organisations, which are not responsible democratically to anybody, should maintain the same accounting disciplines as ought to be maintained by those private limited liability companies and corporations in this country which are bound by the Companies Act 1976, from which provisions these amendments were in fact derived. I beg to move.
      Lord BELLWIN: My Lords, may I say at once that I by no means share the pessimism of the noble Lord, Lord Bruce, on the likely outcome of the requirements called for under these parts of the Bill; and I wonder whether I need remind him—I am sure I do not—that we are here dealing with areas which are arguably among the most derelict and needy in the whole of the country. They require drastic action, and that is what these UDCs are all about. Therefore, when we talk of comparisons with other areas in other ways, I would respectfully submit that they really are very special, and that is why they are entitled, as we propose, to have his special treatment.
      I should also say on the point of accountability, which I think is arguably the most important point that the noble Lord made, that UDCs are of course responsible to the Secretary of State, who can give them directions, and, through him—and this is the important point—to Parliament. They

      641
      have to publish annual reports and lay their accounts before Parliament, and that is something which DLOs do not have to do. May I also say that they are subject to Exchequer audit. I do not know that either that requirement or the one for laying their accounts before Parliament is something that private enterprise firms have to do.
      Having said that, may I say that in our view the amendment contains some very useful and helpful material which in fact could have improved the drafting of paragrah 10. I have in mind particularly subparagraph (3)(b) of the amendment. Unfortunately, the amendment as drafted is technically deficient, in that it teems to delete by mistake paragraphs 11, 12 and 13 of the schedule. The amendment also contains a number of onerous requirements—for instance, subparagraph (3)(a)—with which it would be virtually impossible for the UDC to comply. However, I assume that for "line 42" we should read "line 12"—I am sure that is right—on the assumption that the noble Lord's amendment relates only to paragraph 10 of Schedule 29, the accounts provisions.
      Even so, I cannot accept the amendment, but I can assure the noble Lord that we accept entirely in principle that the statement of accounts should show a true and fair view of UDC affairs and its financial results at the end of the financial year. Fortunately, subparagraph (3) of the existing version of paragraph 10 as contained in the Bill is sufficiently wide to permit this to be done by the Secretary of State, who may impose requirements on the UDC in respect of the information, manner, methods and principle of preparing the statements. But, taken as a whole, the noble Lord's amendment goes further than we are prepared to go; for example, in the rigid way in which it imposes an accounting regime related to the methods by which UDCs can achieve their objectives through Clause 132(3). There would seem to be no way in which a UDC's accounts could be tied directly to these activities. Furthermore, the Government have no present intentions of allowing UDCs to run direct labour organisations of the kind referred to in the amendment.
      In view of my assurance that the present paragraph 10 provides sufficient
      642
      flexibility for the Secretary of State to prescribe the appropriate form, content and principles of accounts, I hope that the noble Lord will be prepared to withdraw his amendment. May I say that we will note very carefully what the noble Lord has said on this matter, because we recognise his great knowledge and special expertise in this field and we want the Bill to be the very best Bill we can get. Therefore, while I cannot accept the amendment for the reasons given, I certainly undertake that we will look very carefully at what the noble Lord has said to see what might be done to help when the whole procedures are taking effect.
      Lord BRUCE of DONINGTON: My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord for his reply. It is not wholly satisfactory in the sense that if this part of the Bill had preceded Part HI, which deals with DLOs, I do not think the House, when it came to consider DLOs at that later stage in the Bill, after having dealt with this, would have accepted or regarded kindly the very detailed, pernickety measures which have been put in the text of the Bill relating to direct labour organisations. Nevertheless, the noble Lord has said that he will give very careful consideration to the matters which we on this side of the House have sought to raise. I have no desire to prolong your Lordships' proceedings any further on this point, and with your Lordships' permission I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
      Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
      8.17 p.m.
      Lord BRUCE of DONINGTON Lord BRUCE of DONINGTON moved Amendment No. 166:
      Page 272, line 33, leave out ("As soon as possible after the end") and insert ("Not later than the 30th of September").
      The noble Lord said: My Lords, this amendment deals with paragraph 13 of Schedule 29, under the heading of "Reports". The existing paragraph 13 reads:
      "As soon as possible after the end of each financial year, a corporation shall make to the Secretary of State a report dealing generally with the corporation's operations during the year, and shall include in the report a copy of its audited statement of accounts for that year".
      My amendment seeks to limit that period

      643
      to, "Not later than the 30th of September", which gives six months for this to be done. Once again I venture to draw your Lordships' attention to the position in regard to DLOs. They have to render their reports and accounts to the Secretary of State within six months, together with a return on the capital employed and a whole series of far more complicated provisions which Her Majesty's Government have inflicted on these unfortunate organisations by the provisions of Part III; and they have to do it all within six months.
      Once again there is a more leisurely attitude towards these "quango" urban development corporations. There, we do not find any particular time restriction at all: it says "As soon as possible". I would suggest that if these urban development corporations are going to be subject to the discipline, which I am quite sure the noble Lord's right honourable friend Mr. Heseltine would be only too pleased to apply to them, then we ought to incorporate it into the Bill. What is wrong with six months? In other words, why not put in the Bill something which puts a little bit of a bomb under any complacency that might conceivably exist or be encouraged by the words, "As soon as possible"? Why not insert, exactly in the same way as in the case of direct labour organisations, the words, "Not later than the 30th of September"? I beg to move.
      Lord BELLWIN: My Lords, I wish the noble Lord would not keep referring to Quangos with such—I was about to say "opprobrium"; but perhaps if I were to put it in the way I should prefer, it might not hit just the right note at this time of night. The fact is that this Government have (if you like) set up Quangos; but they would have to run into hundreds to equal the number set up by the previous Adminstration. If you offset the hundreds that we are disbanding and have disbanded, I think that sets the record straight. But we have never said that there is no room for special bodies to do special work; we have said that there were so many of them, that they proliferate and grow like Topsy, and that one must be careful about them.
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      We would regard it as too onerous for there to be a statutory requirement for the UDC to produce its report by the end of September, particularly since the report is to include an audited statement of accounts. The draft code of practice which is under discussion with the local authorities on the publication of their reports will set only a target date for the end of September. To go further than this and embody a firm date as a statutory requirement would appear to be unnecessary. In setting down our requirements under Clause 3 of the Bill for the publication of UDC information we could include a target period similar to that for local authorities if this were seen to be the most appropriate way to proceed. Before leaving that point I would repeat that in my view the requirements for publishing annual reports and having them laid before Parliament are far more onerous than is called for by the imposition of anything that we have in mind, or that this Bill says, on direct labour organisations.
      Lord BRUCE of DONINGTON: My Lords, I must explain the reason why I referred to Quangos in the way I did and in the terms to which the noble Lord referred. It was to ingratiate myself with the noble Lord; for I thought that the way in which I treated them would be more acceptable to his political philosophy and that, therefore, I should be more likely to get my amendment accepted. I agree that these organisations perform useful functions. I have never been a member of one myself, but I have every reason to suppose that they do a good job of work; but they are not responsible democratically.
      I am a little at a loss as to why the noble Lord should say that to fix the date by 30th September places an onerous burden on the UDCs. Let him look at Clause 11 of the Bill where he is talking about local authorities which are directly-elected bodies and which have to go through a series of far more complicated and stated manoeuvres than are put in the straight general terms of Schedule 29. Perhaps I may refresh the noble Lord's memory of Clause 11. It says:
      "Every local authority who in any financial year undertake construction or maintenance work, whether under works contracts or by way of functional work or both, and every development body who in any financial year undertake construction or maintenance work by way of func-

      645
      tional work, shall prepare the documents mentioned in subsection (2) below not later than 30th September in the financial year following that year".
      The noble Lord did not say that the fixing of 30th September was an onerous burden on the local authority which, thanks to the complex nature of the accounting provisions stated in the Bill, has far more exacting requirements than those in Schedule 29 affecting the UDCs. He argues that it places an undue burden on these bodies (whose accounting requirements are similar and less specific) if they have to put in audited accounts by 20th September; but in the case of the DLOs under Clause 11 he is imposing an obligation to have them in by 30th September. This does not altogether reflect that degree of fairness which I have come to expect from the noble Lord and which prolonged contact with him in the course of this Bill has given me hope that he might view favourably the amendment that I put before the House. I hope that on reflection he will agree that it is not unreasonable to insert the words "30th September" in the Bill itself.
      Lord MOTTISTONE: My Lords, gazing at Clause 11, I see no reference there to audited accounts. In subsection (2) (which is what is referred to in sub-section (1)) there is no reference to audited accounts or to a report dealing generally with corporation operations during the year such as there is in paragraph 13 of Schedule 29. The noble Lord is talking about different things. I suggest that we compare like with like.
      Lord BRUCE of DONINGTON: My Lords, with leave, the requirement is a statutory one in the case of the DLOs. If the noble Lord refers to Clause 11(3), he will see that
      "The balance sheet must show a true and fair view of the state of affairs of the local authority…".
      Therefore, the obligation to produce audited accounts is implicit in the clause. It is so required by law. As I explained in earlier discussions there is always the district audit service at the disposal of the noble Lord's right honourable friend. The service has 12 offices in the country and they employ a considerable staff under an auditor-in-chief in his own department.
      Lord BELLWIN: My Lords, I do not think that there is much that I can add to what I have said. I am grateful to my noble friend. The point he made is valid. There is a great difference between accounts audited in the say we intend and in the way one would need them for laying before Parliament. I see no way in which we could agree that we could put a statutory requirement like this in the Bill.
      Lord BRUCE of DONINGTON: My Lords, I am anxious to remain on terms of utter amiability with the noble Lord; and in those circumstances I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
      Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
      8.27 p.m.
      Lord BELLWIN Lord BELLWIN moved Amendment No. 167:
      Page 272 line 37, at end insert—
      ("( ) Without prejudice to the generality of sub-paragraph (1) above, a report under this paragraph shall deal with the operation during the year of the corporation's arrangements for consultation about the exercise of its powers with local authorities the whole or any part of whose area is included in the urban development area.").
      The noble Lord said: My Lords, this amendment goes hand in hand with the new clause which we agreed earlier requiring UDCs to formulate a code of consultation with the local authorities. This amendment would add a requirement that the UDC would have to report in its annual report on the operation of the consultative arrangements during the course of the year. I am sure that this would be welcome to noble Lords opposite, and especially to the noble Lord, Lord Bruce of Donington. I beg to move.
      Lord BRUCE of DONINGTON Lord BRUCE of DONINGTON moved Amendment No. 168:
      Page 272, line 37, at end insert—
      ("( ) Any person may inspect a report of a corporation (including a copy of its audited statement of accounts for that year) under this section and shall be supplied with a copy of the report by the corporation on payment of such charge for a copy as it may reasonably require.
      ( ) A corporation shall publish in at least one newspaper circulating in its area notice of—

      (a) the place where and the time when any report under this section may be inspected

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      (b) the fact that copies of the report are available for supply to any person requiring them; and

      (c) the charge for each such copy.").

      The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is an amendment which I hope to be able to move in the most dulcet tones, in the hope that I may seduce the noble Lord into accepting it with complete and utter alacrity. I feel that we have common course on this, as the noble Lord has made clear from the beginning that he wants the utmost public involvement in the affairs of the local authorities and every other body with which he or his department is associated. All that this amendment does is to ensure that:
      "Any person may inspect a report of a corporation (including a copy of its audited statement of accounts for that year) under this section and shall be supplied with a copy of the report by the corporation on payment of such charge for a copy as it may reasonably require".
      The next part of the amendment goes on:
      "A corporation shall publish in at least one newspaper circulating in its area notice of—

      (a) the place where and the time when any report under this section may be inspected—

      (b) the fact that copies of the report are available for supply to any person requiring them; and

      (c) the charge for each such copy.) "

      The noble Lord will recall that the party opposite believe in open government. When it comes to direct labour organisations, your Lordships will recall that there are complete means and facilities for the public at any time to inspect these miserable accounting monstrosities that comply with Part III of the Bill relating to accounting. Nevertheless, in whatever form they turn up, the people will be able to inspect them and obtain copies. In the case of this non-elected body, the urban development corporation, when it prepares its accounts as soon as possible—since the noble Lord has not seen fit to accept my previous amendment—the public have access to them and the public are informed about their existence.
      What conceivable objection can there be to that? This is an amendment which should be accepted without any further demur at all. It will ensure that all the noble Lord's good works, and the works of the urban development corporations that are under his guidance, shall be made public, open and advertised, and the cost set out so that all the world may marvel at
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      the wonders which have been accomplished and upon which the noble Lord ventured in his enthusiasm to deal at a slightly earlier stage. I sincerely hope that the noble Lord will be able to accept this amendment. I beg to move.
      8.32 p.m.
      Lord BELLWIN: My Lords, there is no doubt that the noble Lord is tonight at his most persuasive. We do not object in principle to this amendment, but it seems to us that this is the sort of matter which would be far better left to directions given to the Secretary of State under Clause 3 of this Bill. The power to require UDCs to publish information is contained in Clause 3 alongside that for other public bodies such as the new town development corporations, water authorities and so on. The powers are exercisable by directions which may specify the manner, form and occasions on which such publication is made.
      In the light of this, we prefer to avoid a specific requirement being written into Part XVI of the main legislation when we already have a provision in the Bill which has the advantage of allowing greater flexibility and adaptation over time in the light of experience and changing circumstances.
      It is very hard simply to take the point the noble Lord is making and the comparison he draws with DLOs because the comparison is not an exact one. I would have to fall back—as I do in this whole range of discussions that we have been having—on the matter of accountability, because that is what we are talking about; openness, accountability and ensuring that not only things are done but one can see how they are done and that they are right.
      The noble Lord knows that I do not differ with him at all on that. In the provisions laid down we have an adequate safeguard for the reasons that I gave on the earlier amendments. The one about Parliament is an onerous one. We have a lot of flexibility in this for adaptation. If, for any reason, it proves to be for any reason that there is a shortcoming in any way in the amount of reporting that is coming forward, then there is flexibility for any Secretary of State to move to have it as it ought to be. I am quite sure when Parliament looks at the first reports it will

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      not hestitate to say what it thinks about them. I do not differ from the noble Lord on the principles. Why do we not give it a try and see what it looks like? There is the safeguard that I have mentioned, and I would have thought that that was the better way to proceed.
      Lord BRUCE of DONINGTON: I am very sorry, my Lords, that the noble Lord cannot accept this simple amendment. He says that in general terms it is the intention to do this anyway. Then what harm is there in it being in the Bill? If the noble Lord gives me an undertaking that in the directions he gives under another clause in the Bill he will incorporate this specific provision, then I will willingly withdraw anything that I have said.
      It seems to me that this matter is crucial. It is a question of what has been termed "open government". Here we have a local body embarked upon an enterprise, which the noble Lord has discussed in glowing terms, covering very wide areas: acquisition of all kinds of assets, assistance to all kinds of businesses; covering the vast mass of objectives that have to be attempted when embarking on the enterprise as a whole.
      Accounts are going to be prepared and audited as soon as possible. What is unreasonable about the financial results showing exactly how the enterprises work being made available to the general public? What is objectionable about that? I cannot see any objection at all. Even a private limited liability company has an obligation to file accounts within a certain specified period at the end of its financial year so that people may look at them. A local authority's accounts are going to be subject to an ever-increasing supervision. Many of us may think that there is no objection to that. Why should these development corporations escape the statutory necessity of being able to make available their financial results and accounts, not only to local authorities but to interested parties in their locality? I would have thought that this is elementary. I am well aware that the noble Lord does not intend to give way. I have done my best to try and improve the Bill without disturbing the noble Lord's political objective because this I believe to be above all the responsibility of this House as a whole. Of course, if the noble Lord
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      will not take advantage of it, and not give it his further consideration, there is nothing left for me to do but to say that I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
      Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
      Clause 160 [Power to survey land etc.]:
      8.39 p.m.
      Lord PONSONBY of SHULBREDE Lord PONSONBY of SHULBREDE moved Amendment No. 168A:
      Page 137, line 11, leave out ("14") and insert ("28").
      The noble Lord said: My Lords, in moving this amendment I should like to speak to Amendment Nos. 168B to 169B. All these amendments relate to the power of an urban development corporation to survey land, et cetera. At present the clause qualifies the right of entry, but whereas the statutory undertakers are given specific protections, this is not given to local authorities. These amendments seek to give local authorities the same rights. Local authorities may well own land for various functions which could be disturbed or interfered with as a result of uncontrolled access. Moreover, such land may have physical dangers about which the representatives of the urban development corporation would need to be informed. Something more than advanced notification is necessary, however, for there also needs to be the right to object to the Minister if the proposal would be seriously detrimental to the local authority.
      Thus the police and the fire services are worried that security could be breached or severely prejudiced. There are many areas with extensive and uncharted mining operations and there is a risk of damage to cables, pipes, sewers and so on. At the moment districts have a statutory duty under Section 32 of the Public Health Act 1936 to keep a sewer map. I understand also that in the North-West there is a sludge problem which could lead to very difficult consequences if these amendments were not agreed to.
      The urban development corporations are a new creation and they will not necessarily have the detailed knowledge local authorities have. It is crucial that they should have not only the right of notification but also the right of refusal in certain circumstances. To put it

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      fairly briefly, I understand that the Government are prepared to accept, with certain minor amendments, most of the earlier amendments I have referred to and that they would like to see a redrafting of the later amendments. It would probably he for the convenience of the House if at this time I moved the first amendment only. Then as we come to the later amendments I will briefly inform the House of the amendments to the amendments, of which I have already notified the noble Lord on the Woolsack and also the Table. For the moment, I beg to move Amendment No. 168A.
      Lord BELLWIN: My Lords, yes, the noble Lord is correct; but I wonder whether I may be allowed to say just a few words to the whole range of the amendments—168A to 168H? I am pleased to accept Amendments Nos. 168A to 168H on the understanding that the noble Lord has changed the word "the" at the end of the first line of 168C to "their", and that the words "or used" in the second line of 168H are omitted. In accepting these amendments, the Government recognise the constructive approach exemplified by the amendments in extending to local authorities a similar kind of protection to that afforded under the clause to statutory undertakers. As I shall indicate in relation to Amendments Nos. 169A and 169B, the Government propose to table at Third Reading an amendment to incorporate the amendment consequential to 168A to 168H and which 169A and 169B seek to achieve; but in their present form they are defective.
      Lord PONSONBY of SHULBREDE: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his remarks and I beg to move Amendment No. 168A as printed.
      Lord PONSONBY of SHULBREDE Lord PONSONBY of SHULBREDE moved Amendment No. 168B:
      Page 137, line 21, after ("by") insert ("a local authority or").
      Lord PONSONBY of SHULBREDE Lord PONSONBY of SHULBREDE moved Amendment No. 168C:
      Page 137, line 25, at end insert ("performance of any of the functions or, as the case may be, the").
      The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move this amendment with the alteration of the word "the" to "their" at the end of the first line of the amendment.
      Viscount SIMON: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord which it is—"their" or "there"?
      Lord PONSONBY of SHULBREDE: "Their", my Lords.
      Lord PONSONBY of SHULBREDE Lord PONSONBY of SHULBREDE moved Amendments Nos. 168D to 168G en bloc:
      Page 137, line 30, at end insert ("a local authority or").
      Page 137, line 33, after second ("the") insert ("authority or").
      Page 137, line 35, after ("the") insert ("authority or").
      Page 137, line 38, after ("the") insert ("performance of any of their functions or, as the case may be, the").
      Lord PONSONBY of SHULBREDE Lord PONSONBY of SHULBREDE moved Amendment No. 168H:
      Page 137, line 41, at end insert—
      ("(4A) In exercising the powers of this section to survey land held or used by a local authority or statutory undertakers a person to whom subsection (1) above applies shall comply with all reasonable conditions imposed by the authority or undertakers with regard to the entry on, surveying of, searching or boring on or in the land, or placing or leaving on, or removal of apparatus from the land").
      The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move this amendment with the deletion in the second line of the words "or used".
      [Amendment No. 168J not moved.]
      Lord BELLWIN Lord BELLWIN moved Amendment No. 169:
      Page 139, line 18, at end insert—
      ("(12A) The reference to section 28 of the Criminal Law Act 1977 in subsection (12) above shall be construed after the commencement of the Magistrates' Courts Act 1980 as a reference to section 32 of that Act.").
      The noble Lord said: My Lords, this amendment provides that the reference in this clause to Section 28 of the Criminal Law Act 1977 shall be construed as reference to Section 32 of the Magistrates' Courts Act 1980 on the commencement of that Act. This necessary amendment has

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      the effect of bringing up to date the provisions on penalties in this clause. I beg to move.
      Clause l63 [Interpretation: statutory undertakers etc.]:
      [Amendments Nos. 169A and 169B not moved.]
      Clause 166 [Duty of local authorities to provide caravan sites for gipsies]:
      Baroness DAVID Baroness DAVID moved Amendment No. 170:
      Leave out Clause 166 and insert the following clause:
      ("Duty of local authorities to provide caravan sites for gipsies.
      166.—(1) Subsection (2) of section 6 of the Act of 1968 (power to exempt from duty to provide adequate accommodation for gipsies and limitation, in certain cases, of that duty) is hereby repealed.
      (2) In section 190 of the Local Government Act 1972 (gipsy camps)—

      (a) in subsection (1) (which in part amends section 6(2) of the Act of 1968), the words from "and in" to the end are hereby repealed, and

      (b) subsection (2) (certain exemptions from the duty mentioned in subsection (1) above to be continued in force) is hereby repealed.").

      The noble Baroness said: My Lords, unfortunately the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, is not able to be here, and, rather humbly, I have to move the amendments which are in his name and mine; his knowledge of the whole subject is very much greater than mine. In moving Amendment No. 170 I want to say that Sir John Cripps, in his report in April 1977, recommended that no inner borough should be asked to make provision for more than 15 gipsy caravans or to provide a transit site or stopping place, but that the 15-pitch limitation should be removed for outer London and the metropolitan counties. Sir John Cripps also recommended the removal of the power to grant exemption from the duty to provide sites and cancellation of all existing exemptions. At the Committee stage of the Bill we repealed the parts of Section 6 of the Caravan Sites Act 1968 that dealt with the exemptions. However, in the debate on the new clause in Committee, at column 1398 of Hansard of 15th October, the noble Lord, Lord
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      Avebury, made a strong case for abolishing the duty of the metropolitan county councils and the London boroughs to provide for only 15 caravans. Some authorities have already exceeded 15, and the table which the noble Earl, Lord Avon, sent to both the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, and me showed that this was indeed the case.
      My noble friend Lady Stedman, when moving the Second Reading of the Labour Caravan Sites Bill in 1979, also asked for this to be done, and it was in that Bill. I think it is because of the 1972 reorganisation of local government that the limit of 15 became out-of-date in a way. It would now apply to metropolitan counties, which are far bigger and richer in resources than the old county boroughs to which the original 15 applied. It would appear to be unfair to put such a small obligation on them to provide a mere 15 pitches, compared with the counties' obligation to provide sites and satisfy the demand for all the gipsies coming to their area.
      When speaking at Committee stage I mentioned the fact that gipsies, because of their scrap metal activities and other trades, are coming more to urban areas than they used to. This is another reason for repealing subsection (2) of the 1968 Act in its entirety. The link between designation and the site provision duty is a most important one. Under the present policy, even if a London borough provides places for 15 gipsy caravans, which is its total present duty, it does not necessarily get designation powers to move on surplus gipsies. If designation is, as is claimed, a carrot, where is the carrot for London boroughs not yet designated but with a gipsy population?
      As in the Labour Bill, we have chosen not to differentiate in this amendment between inner and outer London boroughs, as it seems preferable to have no statutory limitations, although doubtless in fact the 15-pitch limit would be recognised as a sensible one for he inner boroughs, with all their problems. I beg to move.
      The Earl of AVON: My Lords, this amendment was Clause 3 of the previous Goverment's Caravan Sites Bill, which was introduced into this House and then lost. That clause sought to implement recommendations contained in the Cripps Report,

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      except in so far as the report recommended the retention of the limitation in respect of inner London boroughs.
      I am afraid we do not feel able to accept the amendment, as it now goes further than the proposals contained in our original Local Government Bill. The amendment was contained in the Caravan Sites Bill and we recognise that it implements the recommendations of the Cripps Report. However, we are content now with the elimination of the anomalies arising from the exemptions, and this is covered by Clause 166 of the Bill. It appears to us that the 15-pitch limit on the duty to provide accommodation in London boroughs and metropolitan districts is reasonable, having regard to the difficulty of providing accommodation in those areas. Should the need be greater than that number in any borough or district, the appropriate local authority will have to consider the relative merits of making the limited provision or going further if they wish to qualify for designation under Section 12.
      I should add that we are trying to discuss this matter with the London Boroughs Association but they are rather waiting to see how far we go before they commit themselves. I believe that when the noble Baroness drafted this new clause, which we very much supported, we felt that it did, and does, go far enough. I hope, bearing that in mind, that the noble Baroness will be prepared to withdraw her amendment.
      Baroness DAVID: My Lords, it seems that the consultation is not yet complete and so I think I should like to reserve my position and possibly come back on Third Reading in order to find out how much further the consultation has gone. At this point I should like to thank the noble Earl, who having sent a letter to the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, copied to me. In that letter he said:
      "I understand there has been considerable consultation with all interested parties over possible changes to the 1968 Act."
      The noble Lord, Lord Avebury, told me this evening that he thought it rather odd that although there had been considerable consultation "with all interested parties ", he was not one of them; and of course the 1968 Act was his creation.
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      I should very much like to reserve his position and my own on this, and possibly find out later what further consultations have gone on and what the result has been. I may well put down an amendment on Third Reading, but in the meantime I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
      Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
      Clause 167 [Removal of unlawfully parked caravans and their occupants]:
      8.55 p.m.
      Baroness DAVID Baroness DAVID moved Amendment No. 171:
      Page 144, line 4, at end insert—
      (" (11) In proceedings against any person for an offence under subsection (4) of this section it shall be a defence to prove that the accused person had reasonable grounds to believe that one or more of the caravans stationed on the land were so stationed in consequence of illness, mechanical breakdown or other immediate emergency.").
      The noble Baroness said: My Lords, this tries to put in a safeguard—the same safeguard which applies to people who are removing caravans from a site in a designated area, an unauthorised site. They can put up a defence of mechanical troubles in respect of their caravan or motor, or a defence of illness and so on. In Section 11 there is an offence of obstructing somebody trying to remove the caravan. This amendment would give the same defence to a member of the police or of the council who is trying to remove a caravan, on exactly the same grounds of illness, mechanical breakdown or other immediate emergency. I beg to move.
      The Earl of AVON: My Lords, the amendment would enable a person charged with obstruction under Section 11(4) of the Caravan Sites Act 1968, as set out in Clause 167 of the Bill, to plead in his defence that he had reasonable grounds to believe that one or more caravans on the land were so stationed in consequence of illness, mechanical breakdown or other immediate emergency.
      The first point is that the amendment does not say that the land in question has to be land to which an order under Section 11 applies, though this is perhaps implicit. Secondly, the amendment would enable a person charged with obstruction to rely for his defence on the circumstances

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      pertaining to a caravan for which he was not responsible, and, indeed, with which he had no connection, other than that it was stationed on the land. Further, he would be able to rely on the presence of that caravan irrespective of the fact that the alleged offence did not involve a caravan. Even if the defence were confined to a caravan for which the person charged was responsible, it would be wrong that he should be able to rely on it where the alleged offence did not depend on a refusal to remove the caravan, but on simple physical obstruction—for example, lying down across a field entrance to prevent the bailiffs from coming on to the land.
      The fact is that the defences in question were designed as defences to a charge of unlawfully stationing a caravan on land, and they are not all applicable to every case of obstruction. It should be observed, however, that the offence in question is intentional obstruction. In such a case, it must surely be a defence for the person charged to establish that he was so ill that he could not comply with the order under Section 11, or, in the case of an offence involving a caravan, that the caravan could not be moved because of mechanical breakdown or some other immediate emergency.
      It is relevant to point out that the defences with which the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, is concerned—which are, of course, the defences under Section 10(3) of the 1968 Act—are already required to be taken into account in relation to an order under Section 11, since under Section 11(1) such an order can only require the removal of caravans which are stationed on the land in contravention of Section 10; and this in turn involves consideration of the defence under Section 10(3). I think it is better to let the law take its course and I would have to resist this amendment.
      Baroness DAVID: My Lords, I think that what the noble Earl has said misses one point: that somebody might be intentionally obstructing because someone was ill in the caravan they were seeking to remove. However, I shall read very carefully what he has said, as no doubt will the noble Lord, Lord Avebury. Again I would reserve the right to come back, and
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      in the meantime I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
      Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
      Clause 168 [Designation of areas for purpose of making unauthorised camping unlawful]:
      9 p.m.
      Viscount SIMON Viscount SIMON moved Amendment No. 172:
      Page 144, line 24, leave out ("order") and insert ("area").
      The noble Viscount said: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Avebury, I move Amendment No. 172. This amendment and the one following are drafting amendments. I understand that my noble friend mentioned them both during the Committee stage, but did not put them down then and was advised to do so later. He was also under the impression that he had satisfied Ministers that these were appropriate amendments. That we must see.
      The first amendment which I move is:
      "Page 144, line 24, leave out "order" and insert "area".
      The subsection will then read:
      "The Minister shall not make an order under subsection (1) or (2) above in respect of any area unless it appears to him either that adequate provision is made in the area for the accommodation of gipsies residing in or resorting to the area, or that in all the circumstances it is not necessary or expedient to make any such provision."
      My Lords, I beg to move.
      The Earl of AVON: My Lords, the amendment makes it clear that in connection with designation adequate provision for the accommodation of gipsies has to be made in the area to which the application for designation relates, and not in the designation order. The amendment corrects an error in the Bill and I am happy to recommend its acceptance.
      Viscount SIMON Viscount SIMON moved Amendment No. 173:
      Page 144, line 34, after ("area") insert ("of the council").
      The noble Viscount said: My Lords, this is the second amendment and, if it is accepted, the subsection will read:

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      "Where an order under this section is made in respect of any area of the council it shall be the duty of the county council for that area or, as the case may be, the London borough council concerned to take such steps as are reasonably practicable",
      and so on. My Lords, I beg to move.
      The Earl of AVON: My Lords, I am afraid that I shall not be quite so accommodating on this one. I do not think that I led the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, astray, because I think it was the previous amendment that I said I agreed to. We find this amendment hard to accept because, at the moment, it is difficult enough to ensure that gipsies in designated areas are made aware of designation. Even if one could be sure of informing the right gipsies outside designated areas (that is, those who were thinking of moving into the designated area), it has to be borne in mind that, in so far as the designated area may consist of a district or districts, district boundaries are not indicated by road signs, and it will be difficult for gipsies coming from outside the area to know whether they are in it or not. Another consideration is that the boundary of the designated area may be wholly or partly contiguous with the county boundary, and the amendment does not seek to require that gipsies in the adjoining county should be informed.
      It is very difficult to get things over to gipsies and we feel that this would tend to confuse them. I should also add that, of course, the National Gipsy Council is normally informed. I submit that the only reasonable course is to concentrate resources on informing gipsies in designated areas. It is for that reason that the Government would like this amendment to be withdrawn.
      Viscount SIMON: My Lords, I am very much obliged to the noble Earl for his explanation. I shall, of course, report back to my noble friend Lord Avebury, who will also perhaps read it in Hansard. Then if he feels that he has to come back, he can do so on Third Reading. But I hope that he will be satisfied with what the noble Earl has said. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
      Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
      Schedule 30 [Enterprise zones]:
      Lord PONSONBY of SHULBREDE Lord PONSONBY of SHULBREDE moved Amendment No. 273XA:
      Page 273, leave out line 10.
      The noble Lord said: My Lords, I think that this amendment should be numbered 173XA. It is misprinted in the Marshalled List. But in speaking to this amendment, I should also like to speak to the following one, No. 173YA. These amendments are similar to amendments which were moved at Committee stage, but they are moved in a slightly different form on this occasion, in that they are two separate amendments as opposed to a single amendment.
      At Committee stage, I spoke of the fact that I felt that this was watering-down the democratic process, in the sense that we were allowing non-elected bodies to apply for enterprise zone status, and there was then a short debate on the issue. I think that a clear distinction should be drawn between the rights of a new town corporation and of an urban development corporation to apply for enterprise zone status. By their very nature, new town corporations function in isolation from centres of population: whereas, again by their very nature, urban development corporations are set up in developed areas.
      The effect of this is that, with an urban development corporation, the establishment of an enterprise zone could have an adverse effect on the immediate surrounding area, in the sense that jobs and trades of various natures could be transferred from the immediately surrounding urban area into the area of the enterprise zone. In those circumstances, it seems that the local authority—be it the district council or the London borough council—should be the authority which applies for enterprise zone status, and that one should not have a situation where there is an application being made by a non-elected body in the middle of a district council or London borough council area.
      Therefore, my intention tonight is not to press the first of the two amendments, because, in a sense, I think that the noble Lord opposite has rejected the omnibus deletion of these two lines, but rather to try to persuade him that different arguments apply to urban development corporations seeking enterprise zone status, than apply to new town corporations.

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      I hope that, in that light, he will see that there is some logic behind the deletion. My Lords, I beg to move.
      Lord BELLWIN: My Lords, I note the intention to move just this amendment, but, if I may, I, too, will speak to No. 273YA as well. This amendment seeks to prevent a new town development corporation from drawing up a scheme for an enterprise zone and subsequently being designated as the body responsible for the zone. Promoting development and creating the right conditions for industry and commerce to flourish are particular strengths of the development corporations. We felt that in some cases it might be desirable, in order to ensure rapid development of difficult run-down areas, to combine the expertise and single-mindedness of the development corporation with the incentive of enterprise zone status.
      A number of new town areas belie the popular image of a modern, successful town set among green fields, by including considerable areas of run-down urban development, industrial dereliction, and other problems more commonly associated with the inner cities. That was why we included new town development corporations alongside urban development corporations, and of course local authorities, as appropriate bodies to be responsible for an enterprise zone.
      Naturally we would not ask a development corporation to prepare an enterprise zone scheme without first consulting the relevant local authorities. In drawing up the scheme, the corporation will be required by the terms of the statutory invitation to consult the local authorities on the content of the scheme. They will be required by the provisions of this Bill to publish the scheme, and to consider any representations—including of course representations made by the local authorities. The consultation requirement in the statutory invitation, and the requirement to publish the scheme in draft and consider representations, provide a very sufficient safeguard for local interests.
      I have already explained the general policy reasons why we included new town and urban development corporations in this part of the Bill. In the case of urban development corporations, there can be no doubt that the areas in question suffer, as I said earlier today, from some of the
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      worst urban problems in the country, and it is just this sort of area where the traditional solutions have failed that a radical new approach is really needed. We felt that combining the attraction of an enterprise zone with the skills of a development corporation could in some cases provide the economic stimulus that was required, so in practice all but one of the enterprise zones we have announced so far will be the responsibility of the district or borough council for the area.
      The exception is the zone on the Isle of Dogs for which the proposed urban development corporation will be responsible. The urban development corporation's primary task will be the redevelopment of derelict areas in dockland. In our view, they should take the lead in establishing the enterprise zone which is designed to give a boost to one of the worst derelict areas.
      I should like to stress that we are not forcing an enterprise zone on to an unwilling local authority. Tower Hamlets Borough Council themselves made a submission to the Government asking for an enterprise zone on the Isle of Dogs. They are already fully involved in the discussions on the boundaries of the zone and the planning regime. I am quite sure that both Tower Hamlets and the UDC are doing their utmost to reach an agreement which will ensure that the Isle of Dogs enterprise zone contributes to the rapid redevelopment and the renewed prosperity of dockland. Having said that, I wonder whether the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede, will feel able not to press his amendment.
      9.11 p.m.
      Lord PONSONBY of SHULBREDE: My Lords, may I thank the noble Lord for his reply. Of course he is absolutely right: Tower Hamlets is very enthusiastic about the enterprise zone context. My point, though, is which authority will make the application? Will it be the urban development corporation or will it be Tower Hamlets? I should be very happy if the noble Lord could say that the urban development corporation—indeed, some of the amendments which we discussed earlier today would have that effect—would consult with the local authority if they had decided to make an

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      application for an urban development corporation.
      We are talking today about particular events which we have in mind, whereas in the course of time there may be other applications for urban development corporation designation. What we wish to ensure in the Bill is that the sort of good faith which we are talking about today will also occur in the future and that if in some area which none of us is thinking about at present there should be an application for an urban development corporation, that authority will also consult the local authority about the designation for an enterprise zone. If I can have the noble Lord's assurance that his intention is that the consultation processes should be written into the designation of an urban development corporation if there is the possibility of an enterprise zone being established within an urban development corporation, that would certainly satisfy me.
      Lord BELLWIN: My Lords, I am entirely ad idem with the noble Lord. That is exactly what we anticipate and fully expect would have to be the case. I am just hesitant about talking about things of that kind being written into the Bill when I am not sure about the precise procedures. But as to the principle, I am entirely in agreement. I would ask the noble Lord to consider not pressing his amendment or withdrawing it for the time being. I cannot give him any commitment about its being written in here, and I am sure that he knows I cannot do so. However, I am sympathetic. I just want to have a look at it.
      Lord PONSONBY of SHULBREDE: My Lords, I will certainly withdraw the amendment at this stage. I have specifically in mind that when an urban development corporation is designated it should be written into the designation that they should consult if it is proposed that an enterprise zone should be established.
      Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
      [Amendment No. 273 YA, not moved.]
      Viscount SIMON Viscount SIMON moved Amendment No. 173ZA:
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      Page 273, line 29, at end insert—
      (" (c) shall specify the formation, laying out or alteration of any means of access to a classified road or to a proposed road the route of which has been adopted by resolution of the highway authority and notified as such to the local planning authority; and
      (d) shall specify any other operations or use of land which appear to the highway authority to be likely to result in a material increase in the volume of traffic entering or leaving such a classified road, to prejudice the improvement or construction of such a road or to result in a material change in the character of traffic entering, leaving or using such a road").
      The noble Viscount said: My Lords, this amendment was tabled by my noble friend Lord Evans of Claughton on representations made to him by the Merseyside County Council. In its capacity as highway authority the council is concerned that it does not lose its power to issue directions under Article 12 of the Town and Country Planning General Development Order 1977 restricting the grant of planning permission—that it does not lose this power after an order designating an enterprise zone has been made under Schedule 30. It would appear to the county council that an order designating an enterprise zone has the effect of granting planning permission for the development specified in the scheme or for the development of any class so specified. They are anxious to have some assurance from the Government that when the Secretary of State invites a body to prepare a scheme the invitation should specify that the body should reach agreement with the highway authority on the matters which are set out in paragraphs (c) and (d) of this amendment. I do not think it is much use my saying more than that because I am sure that the noble Lord knows a great deal more about the operation of highway authorities in relation to planning permission than I do. I beg to move.
      Lord BELLWIN: My, Lords, the first statutory step in setting up an enterprise zone is for the Secretary of State to send an invitation to the authority concerned asking them to prepare a scheme. The invitation will specify the boundary of the zone, and certain other matters—for instance, the bodies which must be consulted about the scheme. As I understand it, this amendment would repuire the Secretary of State to include in the

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      invitation various provisions about highways. He would have to specify the design of each access to a classified road, and also list any types of development which were likely to generate additional traffic. My Lords, this is not the sort of detail that belongs in the invitation. Detailed local information of this kind can only come from the local authorities. It belongs in the enterprise zone scheme, which will be published locally after an invitation has been issued. So I am afraid I cannot recommend your Lordships to accept this amendment.
      Nevertheless, I fully agree that the highway implications of an enterprise zone need to be considered in each case. The design of access to classified roads is important for road safety, and we have always said that we want to see safety standards maintained. So I expect to see the local authorities incorporate access standards agreed with the highway authorities in their enterprise zone schemes. Where people want to use a different design, that will be a reserved matter which the enterprise zone authority will decide after consulting the highway authority. I would also accept that it may be necessary to put a planning restriction on the use of some sites because the access is too restricted to take the traffic that will be generated. That too can be done in the enterprise zone scheme. To summarise, my Lords, I do not think that this amendment is the right way to deal with highway matters in enterprise zones. But they do need to be covered in the enterprise zone schemes that will be drawn up for each zone in consultation between the prospective enterprise zone authority and the highway authority. We have the power to deal with the matters which concern the noble Lord there. I hope he will accept this and withdraw his amendment.
      Viscount SIMON: My Lords, I am very much obliged to the noble Lord for that. I shall, of course, read carefully what he has said and bring it to the notice of my noble friend and the Merseyside County Council. If they feel that anything further should be done, we will try to do it at Third Reading. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
      Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
      Lord PONSONBY of SHULBREDE Lord PONSONBY of SHULBREDE moved Amendment No. 173ZB:
      Page 284, line 44, at end insert ("; or
      (d) it is an hereditament occupied by a major retail space user.").
      The noble Lord said: My Lords, this amendment is similar to an amendment which I tabled at Committee stage. At Committee stage the noble Lord, Lord Bellwin, in replying to the amendment admitted that here was a problem. Indeed I had hoped that he might himself be coming forward with an amendment concerning this particular problem at Report stage. If I may remind the noble Lord he said:
      "I should have thought that this was arguably one of the most difficult aspects of the proposals—some would say the most difficult aspect",
      and he went on to say towards the end of his speech, in reply to the movement of my amendment:
      "We want to get the right answers and we are still having discussions about this".
      I feel that the discussions may still be going on in the absence of any amendment from the noble Lord dealing with this specific problem. I think that enterprise zones will be successful to the extent to which they manage to succeed in creating new jobs and new industry within their areas. If they merely transfer existing jobs from immediately outside the enterprise zone to inside the enterprise zone they will not really have made any contribution at all.
      This is specifically relevant with regard to the retail trade. In the retail trade there is necessarily only so much spending money to go round, and basically people tend to spend money in the retail trade within a fairly limited area from where they happen to live. Therefore the extent to which new retail outlets are created within an enterprise zone will mean that that amount of retail trade will tend to move from immediately outside the enterprise zone to inside it, and it will not in fact be creating extra jobs or extra industry and indeed could well have the effect of bankrupting small businesses immediately outside the enterprise zone. I hope that the noble Lord will have something helpful to say to your Lordships this evening about this particular problem. I beg to move.
      Viscount SIMON: My Lords, I should like to support the amendment proposed

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      by the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby. We feel very strongly that it would be fatal to the success of enterprise zones if they were used simply to transfer businesses from just outside. Apart from that, I echo what the noble Lord said about the damaging effect on small businesses which may be just outside the enterprise zone if, let us say, a large supermarket is then opened inside the enterprise zone, free of rates. It seems to us that this is a matter which should be dealt with. I hope the noble Lord will be able to tell us that the consultations are going well.
      Lord BELLW1N: My Lords, I say immediatley that enterprise zones are an experiment in giving investors and entrepreneurs the freedom to develop unattractive and often derelict areas as they see best. We want to see if market forces can achieve results where other remedies have failed. That is why the measures in the enterprise zone package as far as possible apply equally to all types of business, whether industrial or commercial. In my view, it would be invidious to discriminate against retailing in the way the noble Lord suggests. After all, shops can make a major contribution to the local economy and to the appearance and overall attractiveness of an area. In many cases residents will welcome more and better shops in their areas.
      I do not agree that we should exclude retailing above a certain limit from the enterprise zone rates exemption across the board, regardless of local circumstances—I think those are the key words—because at the same time I know that a number of local authorities who wholeheartedly want an enterprise zone are seriously concerned about the possible impact of hypermarket development on existing shopping centres. So are a number of authorities concerned for adjacent areas, as noble Lords have said. We are still discussing with these authorities the particular problems in their areas, and I can and do assure both the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, and the noble Viscount, Lord Simon, that we are prepared to take a flexible line on this subject.
      Where it is clear that some control is necessary on large-scale retailing developments, we can achieve that through planning restrictions. We can exclude such developments from the terms of the
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      enterprise zone scheme so that each proposal needs an individual planning permission in the normal way. Because of the amendments which the House accepted at Committee stage, we also have power to act quickly to alter the planning regime if we find that something unforeseen and damaging is happening. These are far more effective safeguards for local shopping centres, where they need protection, than excluding retailers from rates exemption.
      The Government accept that there is a problem here. There are strongly held views on both sides, and we are still exploring possible solutions with the bodies concerned. The solutions will differ from area to area, depending, among other things, on the pattern and strength of local shopping centres. As I say, we are prepared to take a flexible line which recognises these local differences. But I would not want to exclude medium to large-scale retailing units from the rating exemption across the board. That would suggest that we thought shops were in themselves bad for the local economy and for the community, and I am sure that that is not what noble Lords intend.
      I entirely take the points that have been made. We have been immersed in them for so long that, my goodness! if we do not know by now that they are a worry then we really are not on top of the job, and I like to think that we are on top of it because we think it is a fascinating experiment which, like many other experiments, has problems. So, while we certainly do not want to exempt such types of premises from rating in the way in which the amendment seeks to do, we must watch the situation very closely otherwise it could lead to the kind of effects that have been suggested, and that is very much the opposite of what we want to see.
      I hope that noble Lords will understand that we are not seeking to turn our backs on this—far from it. Frankly, I doubt that local authorities themselves would maintain their present enthusiasm if they felt that it could lead to the kind of problems that have been suggested.
      Viscount SIMON: My Lords, with the leave of the House and before the noble Lord sits down, I should like to point out that it seems to me that I have

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      not quite succeeded in getting my point across. The noble Lord spoke several times about local shopping centres but I am considering the local corner shop, which is a rather different matter. I am concerned with the small shopkeepers who are just over the border.
      Lord BELLWIN: My Lords, I am sorry if I gave the wrong impression. We are cognisant of their problems as well. But if we are talking of a hypermarket or even a very large retailing unit we would have to look at each separate area. I do not know each of the areas where it has already been designated, subject to agreement, and I do not know each individual situation; but it would probably be right to say that there must be some areas where they would very much welcome the kind of retailing units about which we are talking. So we must do it in a very flexible way and be aware of the kind of problems that have been mentioned, and we are aware of them.
      Lord PONSONBY of SHULBREDE: My Lords, with the leave of the House, I am glad that the noble Lord is seized of the problem; indeed, he told us so during the Committee stage. One wonders whether the answer to the problem is that the local authority, with such powers as it has over the enterprise zone, would be very much concerned with what effects this could have, and perhaps something could be written into the proposals in that way. However, if the noble Lord has any further ideas perhaps we can come back to them on Third Reading.
      Lord BELLWIN: My Lords, with the leave of the House, I should like to make one brief observation which may be helpful. Noble Lords might like to know that the possible solutions under discussion at present are about planning restrictions and not so much about changes to rating exemption, because our conclusion is that the rating exemption itself should stand. Therefore, I want to stress that we believe that there is much scope for protecting other traders through the planning regime. As regards corner shops, the chances are that they have a very local market and would be less likely to be affected, but that again will depend on the area and the individual situation. I think that we would have to wait and see the outcome of what we set up in each case.
      Lord PONSONBY of SHULBREDE: My Lords, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
      Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
      Clause 174 [Precepts on local authorities for land drainage]:
      Lord DIGBY Lord DIGBY moved Amendment No. 273ZC:
      Leave out Clause 174.
      The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move what should be Amendment No. 173ZC. Clause 174 was added to the Bill in Committee and moved by my noble friend Lord Middleton. It was accepted very quickly by my noble friend Lord Ferrers in a commendably brief reply and with no other debate. The effect of this clause is to reduce the financial control of local authorities and to increase that of the Minister. It is hardly necessary for me to remind your Lordships that the resources of local government are under extreme pressure and that there is a widespread feeling among elected members that it is more difficult to control local expenditure in the absence of the democratic process.
      I appreciate that with no recent revaluation there may be a case for an increase in the maximum rate of 1·7p in the pound, but there has been no consultation with local authorities, which will actually have to pay. The method chosen is the usual, modern panacea of transferring the power to the Minister. I would remind your Lordships that this maximum is not a maximum as it can be exceeded provided a majority of the local authority members on the local land drainage committee agree. In these hard times, in my view that is a reasonable safeguard. It can be increased with local authority agreement, and that is a desirable state of affairs. I believe that this is the wrong way to deal with the problem and, in the absence of consultation with those who must pay, I think that we should delete this clause.
      Lord SANDFORD: My Lords, I rise to support my noble friend in this amendment, and although I am glad to be present to hear amendments by other noble friends being accepted with alacrity by the Government, in this particular case I am not so sure that I was so pleased. The fact of the matter is as my noble friend

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      Lord Digby has said. In the circumstances, I think that the proper thing to have done would have been to accept the intention behind the amendment of my noble friend Lord Middleton, to have promised discussions and consultations with the local authorities and, as far as possible, to have had those discussions and consultations between the Committee stage and the Report stage. Then we should be dealing with an amendment on which there had been consultations. I must add my protest to that of my noble friend Lord Digby at the lack of consultation and discussion in this particular case.
      Earl FERRERS: My Lords, if we have been guilty of lack of consultation, of course I would apologise to both my noble friends for the inconvenience which has been caused. They will, of course, both be aware of the volume and complexity of the amendments with which we have had to deal in this Bill and, of course, local authority associations could have made representations to us when they saw the amendment in the name of my noble friend Lord Middleton down on the Marshalled List for the Committee stage. But as far as I am aware they failed to do so. If that has upset my noble friends, of course I apologise to them.
      However, Section 46 of the Land Drainage Act 1976 specifies that the precept levied by water authorities on county councils in respect of expenditure on land drainage may not exceed 1·7p in the pound except with the consent of a majority of the local authority representatives on the land drainage committee of the authority. The limit was set in the Water Act 1973, and it represented the decimal version of the limit of four old pence, which was introduced in the River Boards Act 1948. Because of the effects of inflation on land drainage expenditure since 1973, combined with the almost static level of the penny rate product, the limit is beginning to bite in a number of areas. This places quite an obligation on the county council representatives.
      All that the amendment moved by my noble friend at the Committee stage sought to do was to permit the Secretary of State to increase the figure of 1·7p. My noble friend Lord Digby said that this reduced the control of the local authorities and
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      it increased the control of the Secretary of State. With the greatest respect to my noble friend, I think that that is a slight exaggeration because he knows that on land drainage committees there is always a majority of representatives of the county councils.
      Within the 1·7p limit the county councillors can always outvote the nominated members. If the land drainage committee wishes to go above the 1·7p limit, then it is only the county councillors themselves and not the nominated members who are permitted to vote. Therefore, the county councillors really have the authority in all cases, and all my noble friend's amendment sought to do was to increase the limit which was originally set in 1948. I do not believe that that is an excessive request, and I think it is really only in line with inflation. I repeat to my noble friends that in the end it is the county councillors who have the majority vote on the land drainage committees. I hope, therefore, that my noble friend will not see fit to press his amendment.
      Lord COLLISON: My Lords, may I briefly say a word about this amendment and express the hope that it will not be pressed by the noble Lord, Lord Digby, and if it is pressed that we shall not support it. I do this for a simple reason; again an agricultural reason. The Land Drainage Act 1976 gives the authorities that can carry out land drainage works, which include main river improvements, flood alleviation, and sea defence work. We all know what happens when the floods occur. We have seen it happening in the last few days, and it happens more or less every year. Land is damaged, sometimes permanently, cattle are lost, and I believe that it is important that enough money should be available to enable the necessary drainage work to be undertaken.
      Obviously, the cost of doing these works has increased with inflation like everything else, and therefore I firmly believe that it is perfectly right that the 1·7 limit should be moved up by the responsible Minister. With those few words, I just wish to express my view, which I hope will be supported by my noble friends, that this amendment should not be carried and that it should be opposed.
      Lord DIGBY: My Lords, the Minister is quite right that local authorities have a majority on these committees, but if you take only these local authority members, provided they agree it can be increased. I feel that this is a proper safeguard. However, I must admit that, as usual, the noble Lord, Lord Collison, speaks with a lot of sense. I can see the objects behind this, and if the noble Earl the Minister would agree to make a suitable undertaking that the Government would consult with the local authorities before making any order I would be prepared to withdraw this amendment.
      Earl FERRERS: My Lords, if I may have the leave of the House, may I say that of course I will see that the Government discuss the position with the local authorities before they make an order. If that satisfies my noble friend, I would be quite happy for them to do that.
      Lord DIGBY: My Lords, I am most grateful. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
      Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
      9.39 p.m.
      Lord MOTTISTONE Lord MOTTISTONE moved Amendment No. 1 73A:
      After Clause 174, insert the following new clause:
      ("Rateable values.
      . Subsection (8) of section 65 of the Land Drainage Act 1976 (by virtue of which the rateable value of any land shall be construed, where that value differs from the net annual value, as referring to the net annual value) shall cease to have effect.").
      The noble Lord said: My Lords, there is a vague similarity between this amendment and the one we have just been discussing, although it does not involve ministerial orders. Section 65(8) of the Land Drainage Act 1976 perpetuates the practice of substituting the net annual value for the rateable value, where these differ, in determining the assessment of drainage rates. The practice goes back to the time when there was industrial derating in England and Wales. The purpose was to ensure that drainage rates were paid on the full value of industrial premises.
      Industrial derating was abolished in 1962 in England and Wales. Therefore, mineral hereditaments are now the only
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      type of property for which there are different net annual values and rateable values. The reason is that royalties paid to landowners represented part payment for a capital asset and, only in part, rent in the true sense.
      In 1971, following years of pressure by the CBI, the then Government agreed that this peculiar characteristic of mineral rents should be taken into account in England and Wales, and in Scotland also, for the purpose of calculating general rates—that is, that general rates should no longer be charged on the full net annual value—and effect was given to that decision in the Mines and Quarries (Valuation) Order 1971 and the Valuation (Mines and Quarries) (Scotland) Order 1971. It is suggested that in the interests of consistency and equity, the basis for drainage rates should also now be rateable value, and accordingly I beg to move.
      Earl FERRERS: My Lords, notwithstanding the fact that I may get stick from my noble friend Lord Digby for making a short speech in reply to my noble friend Lord Mottistone, all I would say is that the Government accept the point of view which my noble friend has put forward and are happy to accept the amendment.
      Lord MOTTISTONE: I am most grateful to my noble friend, my Lords.
      Lord ROSS of MARNOCK: My Lords, may we be informed whether this amendment applies to Scotland?
      Earl FERRERS: My Lords, I think I am right in saying—and if I am not I will inform the noble Lord—that it does not.
      9.42 p.m.
      Lord JACQUES Lord JACQUES moved Amendment No. 174:
      After Clause 175, insert the following new clause:
      ("Amendment of s. 9 of Justices of the Peace Act 1979.
      . After section 19(2) of the Justices of the Peace Act 1979 there shall be inserted a new subsection (2)(a) as follows:—
      "(2)(a) For the purpose of subsection (2) above the districts of Brighton, Plymouth, Portsmouth and Stoke-on-Trent shall be deemed to be non-metropolitan counties.".").
      The noble Lord said: My Lords, the towns specified in the amendment are large towns in non-metropolitan counties. Prior to local government reorganisation in 1974 they had two principal committees concerned with magistrates and magistrates' work. The first, the Lord Chancellor's Advisory Committee, was concerned with making recommendations to the Lord Chancellor on the appointment of magistrates. In addition, it reported annually to the Lord Chancellor on attendances and other matters on which the Lord Chancellor required annual information. The second, the Magistrates' Courts Committee, was concerned with the maintenance of buildings, the appointment and training of staff and the training of magistrates. Those are the two committees principally concerned with the work of magistrates and magistrates' courts.
      Following reorganisation in 1974, the then Lord Chancellor, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, decided that, in spite of changes in local government, there would continue to be Lord Chancellor's advisory committees in these large towns in non-metropolitan counties and that those advisory committees would continue to be directly responsible to him; and that is still the position today.
      The Home Office, on the other hand, decided that the magistrates' courts committees in these large towns should be abandoned and that the work should be taken over by the county committee. It did so in spite of the fact that these towns were larger than many of the districts in the metropolitan counties which had kept their magistrates' courts committees. That decision was illogical and in practice it has proved to be rather unsatisfactory: so unsatisfactory that in most of these towns the local magistrates have in fact maintained their magistrates' courts committee, either under that name or some other name. For example, in the case of Plymouth they have continued to elect their magistrates' courts committee and still have a magistrates' courts committee today. In the case of Portsmouth they continue to elect a committee, but give it another name. The only difference is that whereas before the local magistrates' courts committee had certain powers, nowadays it has no power at all. It has to
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      go to the county cap in hand before it can do anything.
      The circumstances in these large cities in non-metropolitan counties are entirely different from the circumstances in the rural divisions in those counties. For example, in the case of Portsmouth there are at present 130 magistrates, and according to the establishment set by the present Lord Chancellor within the next three years the figure will be increased to 180 magistrates. In that city there are seven courts daily. But the circumstances in the rural divisions are quite different. In some cases there are only 20 magistrates, or thereabouts; there is not even one court each day. Consequently, both the circumstances and the problems are quite different.
      Furthermore, because every division in the county must be represented on the county committee, the large cities are under-represented, in most cases grossly under-represented. For example, in the case of Hampshire, the small divisions have one representative for every 20 magistrates, but the cities have one representative for every 35 magistrates; they are grossly under-represented. There are certain consequences which flow from that under-representation. The staff gradings that are required to carry out the work of the city are quite different from the staff gradings that are required in the rural divisions, because of the different nature of the work, and there is a tendency by county committees to have an equalisation, to try to apply in the city the same gradings as they apply in the rural divisions. The consequence is that all these towns are having great difficulty in recruiting adequate staff of the right calibre. That problem is far greater than it used to be when the magistrates' courts committee of the city had control of its own affairs.
      Moreover, in the case of the city of Portsmouth a feasibility study has shown overwhelmingly that computerisation of the city records would be most cost effective, but the attitude of the county committee is that of "wait and see", because it is not a matter of urgency for the small districts in the county that have the weight on the county committee. The present system is wasteful of time, paper and money. May I give your Lordships two examples? Let us take

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      the city of Portsmouth. Before the reorganisation, if a small repair or, say, the redecoration of a room was required, all the magistrates' clerk had to do was to get in touch with the city council, often in the same building, or in an adjoining building, and make a request for the work to be done. The appropriate department of the city council sent across a representative, the job was surveyed, and arrangements were made for the work to be done.
      But what happens now? If a small repair or some redecoration is required, the clerk to the magistrates in Portsmouth has to get in touch with the clerk to the county magistrates' courts committee, who happens to be the clerk to the court in Totton, in the south-west of the county. He then has to get in touch with the clerk to the county council, who is in Winchester. The county council, in Winchester, uses the Portsmouth City Council as its agent for repairs. So the clerk to the Portsmouth City Council then gets in touch with Portsmouth, and we are back to square one. That actually happens today. Then, after all that waste of paper and all that waste of time, and after, sometimes, misinterpretation of what is required, the work commences, or is surveyed with a view to its being commenced. I submit that that is a complete and utter waste of time and is bureaucracy of the worst kind.
      This happens in all these cases, but let us take another example—the case of Plymouth. In the case of Plymouth, you have magistrates travelling up to Exeter—a round trip of 100 miles—eight or 10 times a year for work that could quite easily be done in Plymouth itself. That is a sheer waste of money. I should have thought that this Government, who want to save money, would have dived upon this and put it right long before now. This proposal will not involve any additional staff and it will not involve any additional cost.
      My Lords, at the Committee stage the Minister said there had been a lack of consultation. I have made inquiries, and I find that in each case there has been consultation between the magistrates in the city concerned and the magistrates' courts committee of the county. They are fully acquainted with this amendment; and in the case of Plymouth they were
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      acquainted with this amendment as far back as 1976, so they have had plenty of time to consider it. Do not let us say that there is any lack of consultation.
      It is not the function of the city magistrates to consult with the county council; their connection is the county magistrates' courts committee. They are the people they are consulting with; they are the people they have informed. In most cases the county committee has no comment. I believe that in the vast majority of cases there would be no serious disagreement with this amendment. But here I come to my final point. At the Committee stage the Minister said that this could be done only by agreement. My Lords, if we are going to wait until we get agreement between all the parties concerned before we do anything, we shall never do anything. In 1974, when these changes were made, there was no attempt to get agreement with anybody; the city magistrates were just told that this would be the position in future. Consequently, if it was not necessary to get agreement in 1974 it is not necessary to get agreement in 1980. I have pleasure in moving this amendment, and I hope it will have the support of the House.
      Baroness VICKERS: My Lords, I support this amendment in principle, and I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Jacques, for the excellent way in which he moved it. Unfortunately, Plymouth does not quite agree with everything he said and is not ready to give its support at the present time. I have received a copy of a resolution passed by the Plymouth City Council in 1979, on the following lines:
      "With regard to the request for this Council to seek powers to resume control for Magistrates' Courts in Plymouth, whilst this Council would wish to support the requests, it is of the opinion that the additional cost involved would be too prohibitive and would not be in the best interests of the ratepayers of the City."
      I have usually supported the City of Plymouth in all its requests, particularly in relation to the Act of 1974, but on this occasion, I think, I have to go by their wishes in this regard. Furthermore, I do not want to contradict the noble Lord, Lord Jacques, but they still say that there has not been sufficient consultation.
      I have therefore been asked to oppose this amendment on the ground that it is

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      an inappropriate provision to be made in this Bill (I think there may be something to be said for that, and perhaps my noble friend who is to reply will tell me, if this principle is approved, in what kind of Bill he considers this amendment might be made) and that it should more properly be contained in a Bill relating to the administration of justice. They finally add that no sufficient consultation has taken place. I end by repeating that I agree with the principle and I thank the noble Lord for raising this amendment, but I think that, with regard to Plymouth City Council, I must abide by their wishes at the present time.
      Lord JACQUES: My Lords, before the noble Baroness sits down, would she agree that the additional cost that she mentioned is not added cost; that it is a transfer of cost from the county to the city? That is what the city is commenting upon. It is not more cost but merely a transfer from one authority to another.
      Baroness VICKERS: My Lords, that is what I was saying just now. That is what they are objecting to. They think it might be too hard on the ratepayers of Plymouth.
      Lord ELWYN-JONES: My Lords, I rise to support the plea of my noble friend Lord Jacques for a reconsideration of the existing arrangements for magistrates' courts committees. I think that he has put the case admirably. Before the 1972 Local Government Act, all was well. I wonder if it can be said hereafter that before the 1980 Local Government Planning and Land (No. 2) Bill all was well in all sorts of fields. The changes which occurred then and which affected these four particular magistrates' committees were purely the result of changes in the local government boundaries which it was hoped should result in a review also of the magistrates' court committee arrangements. What has been put strongly to my noble friend, to me and to the noble Baroness, I think, is that there is no logic in some town courts being self-governing and other of similar size not being so. The magistrates, at any rate in each of the four courts we are concerned with, are unanimous about the wish that they should have their own committee
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      and, as far as the other three are concerned, they support the views of the local bench. So do the local law societies. There would be no upheaval in what is proposed. Indeed, the information we have is that there would be considerable saving in staff and in expenditure; and the sort of illustration my noble friend has given of the whirlygig of letters going from one end of the county to the other and then back to square one happens in other places as well. In Brighton, I am told, a similar situation arises. There is a feeling on the benches of these four authorities that they are grossly unrepresented in the new county authority.
      On the point about the Lord Chancellor, I am happy to know, lest responsibility may pass on to my shoulders, that it was a true decision on the part of the noble and learned Lord who succeeded me that these four magistrates' courts should retain their advisory committees for the four towns we are concerned with—which is a measure of the thought that some independence of control over their own arrangements ought to be allowed. I hope therefore that if the Government do not feel disposed to accept this amendment tonight, we know that the Home Office has very little to do; and it may be that if, unhappily, we meet a negative, it w ill have been heard in this debate and we may possibly see reference to this in the Queen's speech—but I doubt it.
      Lord SANDFORD: My Lords, I say nothing about the merits of this amendment. This saves me having to be so intrepid as to tangle with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Elwyn-Jones, on such a matter. However, I doubt whether this is the appropriate Bill to which to move such an amendment; but I have absolutely no doubt that there has been no consultation on this matter and on those grounds alone I hope that my noble friend will resist it robustly.
      Lord DIGBY: My Lords, I can say that East Sussex certainly had no consultation and, as far as counties are concerned, I think the noble Lord may be misinformed as to how much consultation there has been. I will not repeat all the arguments we had in Committee but I would say that the savings, if any, are assured to be minimal. There will be

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      duplication of staff, even if the staff is there already, and the saving in travel will be offset by other costs.
      10 p.m.
      Lord BELSTEAD: My Lords, may I say that I understand the reason why the noble Lord, Lord Jacques, and his fellow Peers have moved this amendment both at Committee stage and this evening. My home has always been near a county borough and I genuinely understand the reaction of civic pride to some of the alterations that were made in the powers under the 1972 Local Government Act. But there was a logical thought which ran through the arrangements for the magistrates' courts committee under the 1972 Act. That was that the boundaries of the magistrates' courts committee should be related to the boundaries of the local authorities which financed them. So it was that the 1972 Act provided that there should be a separate magistrates' courts committee for the whole of each non-metropolitan county.
      The noble Lord referred in his speech to the fact that the advisory committees had continued. No one is more glad than I am—indeed the noble and learned Lord, Lord Elwyn-Jones, has commended this as being a sensible continuing arrangement. Those advisory committees have very different functions from the functions of the magistrates' courts committees.
      The noble Lord, Lord Jacques, also called in aid what I would have called a circular argument rather than a square one as he presented it to the House as to how arrangements seemed to go back and forth—or perhaps round and round—in the counties in order to be able to secure repairs to the courthouses of the various petty sessional districts of these counties.
      However one argues it, two facts are incontrovertible. The first is the one I have already submitted; that the boundaries of the magistrates courts' committees are coterminous and should continue to be coterminous with the areas which finance them. The second point was picked up by my noble friends: that there has not been real consultation on this matter. I do not think that I need quote any words; all I need do is to say that my noble friend Lady Vickers—whose heart obviously is with
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      this amendment—had none the less to include in her words a record of the fact that the city of Plymouth were on record as saying that on financial grounds they could not support an amendment of this kind.
      Therefore, I must say with regret that the Government cannot support an amendment of this kind. So far as the future is concerned—and I feel I owe noble Lords a reply on this point; and this was really the point that the noble and learned Lord put to me—I do not think I can give any undertaking for legislation so far as a piecemeal change is concerned. As I, on behalf of the Government, have had to say this evening as a matter of principle that I do not believe that this is the right way of proceeding, I am afraid therefore I must resist not only this amendment but any similar move in the foreseeable future.
      Lord JACQUES: My Lords, on the question of whether this is the appropriate Bill, I say that this Bill is such an omnibus that there is no harm in it having another passenger. I would point out to the Minister that the magistrates' courts are self-financing. The amount received in fines by the Home Office is the income, and the amount which is spent on the courts is the expenditure. They are very largely self-financing. So far as consultation is concerned, the magistrates' connection is with the county committee. As I have said, there has been consultation with the county magistrates' courts committee. They know that this amendment is before the House tonight and in general they have no comment to make.
      I am not asking the Minister to promise us legislation next week or the week after or even in the Queen's Speech, but I should like a promise that some consideration will be given to reinstituting the magistrates' courts committees in those towns where the Lord Chancellor has found it necessary to keep the advisory committees. He specified 12 towns in non-metropolitan counties which he thought were big enough and ought to have their own advisory committees. I should like an assurance from the Minister that the Home Office will look at that and see whether it cannot do the same thing so far as the magistrates' courts committees are concerned. Surely this is a matter

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      for consideration. Is the Minister willing to give an assurance that there will be consideration of that matter?
      Lord BELSTEAD: My Lords, if the House will allow me, of course I am always ready to look at any matter which the noble Lord puts to me, but in what I said
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      I think I made it crystal clear that I give no commitment of any sort whatsoever.
      Lord JACQUES: My Lords, in the circumstances, while I feel so strongly that I could not withdraw the amendment, I will certainly not force a Division.
      On Question, amendment negatived.
      Clause 177 [Amendment of s. 94 of the Public Health Acts (Amendment) Act 1907]:
      10.7 p.m.
      Viscount HANWORTH Viscount HANWORTH moved amendment No. 175:
      Page 148, line 33, at beginning insert—
      (" (1) For subsection (4) of section 94 of the Public Health Acts (Amendment) Act 1907 there shall be substituted—
      " (4) Where a boat or vessel is duly licensed by or under any regulations of the Board of Trade, or such a boat or vessel and the person in charge thereof or navigating it is duly licensed—

      (a) for the purposes of this section by the local authority in whose area it is normally navigated; or

      (b) under any other enactment, by a harbour authority as defined in section 57(1) of the Harbours Act 1964 within whose limits of jurisdiction this section does not have effect;

      no further licence under this section shall be required for that boat or vessel, or for the person in charge of or navigating it.".")
      The noble Viscount said: My Lords, this amendment seeks to ameliorate a very unsatisfactory situation which ought to have been thought about when the clause was drafted. As things stand, the Public Health Acts (Amendment) Act 1907 appears to require a hire boat to have a separate licence from every district council into whose area it sails. This, of course, applies to private owners who may let out their boats, even to friends, for short periods. So far as the law is concerned, this is a most ridiculous situation and I think the Government agree that something must be done. There are also other authorities who have analogous powers to the district councils for licensing pleasure craft on condition that their construction and equipment have been examined and passed as safe. Chichester and Crouch Harbour Conservancy Authorities are a case in point. This amendment would make it unnecessary to obtain a second licence.
      As I have said before, I understand that the Government agree that the situation is unsatisfactory and that some district councils' licensing schemes are insufficiently rigorous. They argue that if this amendment were accepted boat owners would tend to seek licences in those districts where they could be obtained most
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      easily, and so reduce the safety requirements. But my amendment specifically requires a boat to be licensed by the local authority in whose area it is normally navigated. I do not claim that this amendment is a final answer, but it is a solution to an existing problem until the Government can produce a better, more comprehensive solution. I fear that unless this amendment is passed pressure of business will mean indefinite delay by the Government. Can they guarantee to produce suitable legislation within a year? If not, I should have been tempted to take this to a Division so that, if I won, something would be done; but at this time of night there would be no point in doing so. I beg to move.
      Lord BELSTEAD: My Lords, I listened with interest to the comments of the noble Viscount, Lord Hanworth, because we had these amendments down in Committee and I think they were taken very late at night. Certainly I think this particular amendment, or something not unlike it, received rather scant debate. I certainly accept that circumstances can arise in which there is duplication of licensing controls and that this can be confusing and inconvenient to pleasure boat operators. I agree that it is unsatisfactory.
      There is certainly a case for doing what we can to remove unnecessary duplication. Indeed, we did this in Committee by writing in a new clause, which is now Clause 177. Provided we set about it in the right way, this should work to the advantage of all concerned—the licensing authorities, the pleasure boat operators and the boat-going public. However, so far as this amendment is concerned, there are problems of safety in respect of people in boats. My primary concern, and indeed that of the Government, has been to consider what the effects of the amendment could be on safety on the water.
      However desirable in itself the aim of removing duplication of controls may be, I am certain that we must not sacrifice safety in the realisation of that aim. I know that some local authorities take their responsibilities for water safety very seriously indeed. There are some local authorities who attach to licences rather less strict conditions, and I understand

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      there are other local authorities which operate really no licensing system at all.
      If that is the situation, then I really do not think this amendment will do. It will not do, I think, on an extension of that argument which the noble Viscount very fairly put and to which he also gave a reply; namely, the fear that some unscrupulous boat operators could get themselves licensed in one area and then use their boats in a different area.
      However, I leave that to one side. I do not think we need to cross swords about that this evening, but I should like to add to what I have said, that if one looks at the amendment, it is conceivable—and I really must say this in case the matter should go to a Division—that the amendment is not drafted correctly. As it reads at present, the exemption in sub-paragraphs (a) and (b) would seem only to apply to craft which are already licensed by the Board of Trade. That is clearly anomalous and I am sure it is not the effect which the noble Viscount wants to achieve.
      Finally, as he very fairly mentioned, these are matters which are being considered at the moment by the Home Office. I cannot give him the undertaking he asks for—that the Government will bring forward legislation on this matter within a year—because a year is a very long time in politics and I cannot see that far ahead. But I do give the noble Viscount an assurance that we will do our best to bring our study of this matter to a conclusion and then try to do something about it.
      Viscount HANWORTH: My Lords, of course the noble Lord must realise, by his own admission, that if some licensing authorities are less rigorous than others, a factor of safety already comes into the equation and I do not think that my own amendment, after what I have said, would increase this unsatisfactory situation from a safety point of view. I think really one can almost dismiss the Minister's argument on that subject.
      However, what I asked him was whether he will press forward on this, because clearly the situation is unsatisfactory.
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      Not only is it making the law look an ass and look ridiculous but, on the Minister's own admission, there is the safety aspect, which is unsatisfactory in some cases. Nevertheless, I accept the Government's good intentions to try to do something about this; I only hope that they really will do so. So I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
      mendment, by leave, withdrawn.
      [Amendment No. 176 not moved.]
      10.15 p.m.
      Baroness DAVID Baroness DAVID moved Amendment No. 176A:
      After Clause 177, insert the following new clause:
      ("Amendment of s. 127 of Highways Act 1959
      . In section 127 of the Highways Act 1959 the words or a gipsy "shall be omitted.").
      The noble Baroness said: My Lords, if I may, I will speak to Amendments No. 176A and No. 188A at the same time. This new clause was accepted at Committee stage, but it was suggested that it should be put in a different place in the Bill, which is what this amendment does. Amendment No. 188A makes the necessary entry in Schedule 32 to repeal that part of Section 127 of the Highways Act 1959. My Lords, I beg to move.
      The Earl of AVON: My Lords, we have already spoken to this amendment from this side of the House. I am happy to accept the proposed amendment, together with the consequential Amendment No. 188A.
      [Amendment No. 177 not moved.]
      Lord STANLEY of ALDERLEY Lord STANLEY of ALDERLEY moved Amendment No. 178:
      After Clause 181, insert the following new clause:
      ("Equestrian Traffic
      .—(1) In the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1967—
      (a) the following subsection shall be substituted for section 1(3A) (by virtue of which the provision which may be made by a traffic regulation order includes any provision prohibiting, restricting or regulating the use of a road or any part of the width thereof by foot passengers):—

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      "(3A) The provision which may be made by a traffic regulation order shall include any provision prohibiting, restricting or regulating the use of a road or any part of the width thereof by, or by any specified class—

      (a) of foot passengers; or

      (b) of persons driving, riding or leading horses or other animals of draught or burden,

      either generally or subject to exceptions specified in the order, and either at all times or at times, on days or during periods so specified.";
      (b) in section 12(1) and (2) (by virtue of which a highway authority may restrict or prohibit the use of a road or any part of a road by vehicles or by vehicles of any class or by foot passengers) after the words "or by foot passengers ", in both places where they occur, there shall be inserted the words "or by persons driving, riding or leading horses or other animals of draught or burden "; and
      (c) the following definition shall be inserted in section 104(1), after the definition of "street parking place" and "off-street parking place ":—
      "traffic" includes pedestrians and animals;
      (2) The following section shall be inserted after section 23 of the Road Traffic Act 1972:—

      "Equestrain traffic to comply with directions to stop.

      23A. Where a constable in uniform is for the time being engaged in the regulation of vehicular traffic in a road, a person driving, riding or leading a horse or other animal of draught or burden who proceeds across or along the carriageway in contravention of a direction to stop given by the constable, in the execution of his duty, either to persons on foot or to persons on foot and other traffic, shall be guilty of an offence.".

      (3) In Part I of Schedule 4 to that Act (prosecution and punishment) the following entry shall be inserted after that relating to section 23:—

      23A

      Person riding horse etc. proceeding in contravention of constable's direction.

      Summarily

      £50

      —

      —

      —

      (4) The following section shall be inserted after section 159 of that Act:—

      "Power of police to stop equestrian traffic.

      159A. A person driving, riding or leading a horse or other animal of draught or burden on a road shall stop the same on being so required by a constable in uniform, and if he fails to do so he shall be guilty of an offence.".

      (5) In Part I of Schedule 4 to that Act the following entry shall be inserted after that relating to section 159:—
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      159A Person riding horse etc. failing to stop when required by constable.

      Summarily

      £100

      —

      —

      Sections 181 and 183 apply."

      The noble Lord said: My Lords, this amendment reintroduces a Government clause which was contained in the No. 1 Bill, and it puts right an anomaly in the existing law, whereby traffic regulations orders cannot be applied to persons driving, riding or leading horses. This clause would help to regulate the commercial use of bridleways. There is an increasing problem of excessive use of bridleways—and, indeed, footpaths for that matter—for purposes for which bridleways were not originally intended; for instance, sponsored rides. It gives me very great pleasure to say that I understand that the Ramblers' Association support me in this amendment.
      It may be that the Government will say that they would prefer to put off the problem for the moment—perhaps until that long-awaited and, to me and to my noble friend Lord Bellwin, very much to be feared Wildlife and Countryside Bill. Of course, I shall understand if that is the case. My Lords, I beg to move.
      Lord BELLW1N: My Lords, because of the pressure of time we had intended to bring the road traffic measures forward, not in this Bill, but in a later one. However, at the instigation of my noble friend Lord Ridley, during the Committee stage of this Bill we accepted that the largely uncontroversial clauses from the No. 1 Bill, which relaxed ministerial controls over local authorities' road traffic functions, might be added to this Bill. However, this new clause does not relax a ministerial control. It is aimed at bringing a major new class of traffic—equestrian traffic—within the scope of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1967. This is not something that can be taken lightly, "on the nod" as it were. Indeed, there can be differences of view as to whether equestrians ought to be brought within the scope of traffic regulation at all. Although the Government are inclined to the view that they should, we would wish to hear counter arguments. We therefore feel that the matter deserves debate at greater length on another occasion.

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      Moreover although the new clause is reproduced from the No. I Bill, the amendment is, unfortunately, technically defective. Subsection (1)(c) contains a definition of traffic that is much too broad, embracing as it does every species of animal that you may care to think of; the definition therefore needs to be narrowed. Again, subsection (1)(5), in inserting an entry corresponding to Section 159A of the Road Traffic Act 1972 in Schedule 4 to that Act, stipulates that Sections 181 and 183 apply. This is mistaken, as a horse cannot by any stretch of the imagination be regarded as being a motor vehicle.
      For all these reasons, I hope that your Lordships will be able to accept that, although the Government are not disposed to accept this amendment on this particular occasion, its subject matter is nevertheless being given active consideration, and the Government have every intention of bringing forward an alternative clause at a suitable legislative opportunity.
      Lord STANLEY of ALDERLEY: My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that reply. I must say that I feel I can never win. I thought that we had copied out the whole clause word for word from the No. 1 Bill. But, evidently, we did not do it correctly, because we have motor vehicles muddled up with horses. I thank my noble friend for saying that he will do something about the problem at some stage. Therefore I beg to leave to withdraw the amendment.
      Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
      Lord PONSONBY of SHULBREDE Lord PONSONBY of SHULBREDE moved Amendment No. 178ZA:
      After Clause 181, insert the following new clause:
      ("Compensation for loss of office.
      .—(1) The Secretary of State shall by regulations provide for the payment by the Secretary of State or by such body as may be prescribed by or determined under the regulations of compensation to or in respect of persons who are, or who but for any such service by them as may be so prescribed would be, holders of any such office or employment as may be so prescribed and who suffer loss of employment or loss or diminution of emoluments which is attributable to any provision of this Act or of any instrument made under this Act (other than a provision of Part XII of this Act or of any instrument made thereunder).
      (2) Regulations under this section may—
      692

      (a) include provision as to the manner in which and the person to whom any claim for compensation is to be made, and for the determination of all questions arising under the regulations,

      (b) make different provision for different classes of persons and for different circumstances and make or authorise the Secretary of State to make exceptions and conditions,

      (c) be framed so as to have effect from a date earlier than the making of the regulations,

      but so that regulations having effect from a date earlier than the date of their making shall not place any individual in a worse position than he would have been in if the regulations had been so framed as to have effect only from the date of their making.
      (3) Regulations under this section shall be made by statutory instrument and shall be subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.")
      The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move this amendment, and I should like to speak to the following amendment. These amendments are identical to two amendments which I moved at the Committee stage. In reply to my moving of those amendments the noble Lord, Lord Bellwin, said that there is already a scheme for payment of compensation to local government staff who are made redundant or who lose their jobs in the interests of greater efficiency. The scheme to which he referred was never, so far as I am aware, intended to cover loss caused by statutory intervention and was never intended to be an alternative to or a replacement of the Crombie code in the event of statutory intervention. Indeed, since the departmental letter referred to by the noble Lord was issued in 1976, the Crombie code has been invoked on a number of occasions. For example, regulations containing the Crombie code were made in 1977 to provide compensation for officers who suffered loss as a result of the transfer of housing functions from new towns to local authorities. A set of Crombie regulations was made in 1980 to provide compensation for officers who suffered loss as a result of the transfer of housing from the Greater London Council to local boroughs and to some district councils.
      The scheme in the March 1976 departmental letter contains two elements, both discretionary. One of them allows some added years to be awarded for superannuation purposes to a person over 50 with at least five years service who retires

      693
      on the ground of redundancy or in the interests of the efficiency of the service. The number of added years cannot in any event exceed 10, and the maximum is considerably less in many cases, depending upon the officer's age and length of service. The second element in the scheme relates to the size of the redundancy payment which will normally be only the statutory redundancy payment as envisaged in the Employment Protection (Consolidation) Act 1978, formerly the Redundancy Payments Act 1965.
      Under the March 1976 letter, local authorities may, in calculating the redundancy payment, count all of an officer's continuous local government service instead of only the service with the last employer and may, if the officer's pay is more than £120 per week, use it as a base for the calculation of the actual week's pay instead of the statutory maximum of £120 per week. The Crombie code which officers expect to be applied in cases of statutory intervention is far more comprehensive and favourable than the terms of the 1976 letter. For example, it provides for a minimum lump sum payment of 13 weeks' pay, whereas the minimum redundancy payment after the same qualifying claim of employment for two years can be as little as one week's pay, depending on age, according to the terms of the letter. The code also provides long-term income support, subject to stringent provisions for review and abatement for officers with at least five years service who suffer loss of emoluments without any qualifying minimum age.
      Statutory intervention is a different circumstance from redundancies which arise from the ordinary management of local authorities' affairs. That obviously has been recognised by the use of the Crombie code and in connection with statutory reorganisations which have occurred since the last war. I am making this point in some detail because in reply to my earlier amendment the noble Lord specifically referred to the fact that the code he was referring to in the letter was a code used for greater efficiency and not the Crombie code which has been used in the past where statutory intervention is involved. I think that local authority employees have the right to expect that if they suffer loss because of legislation they will be properly compensated in that way. The Local
      694
      Government, Planning and Land (No. 2) Bill is no different from previous legislation and it will certainly adversely affect the careers of some local government employees. I hope, therefore, that the noble Lord can look again at this question. I beg to move.
      Lord BELLWIN: My Lords, as I made plain in Committee, it is the belief of the Government that there is adequate provision for any staff who may be affected by the Bill in the compensation terms already available for local government staff who are made redundant or lose their jobs in the interests of greater efficiency. These terms were agreed between both sides of local government and are available for the staff of new towns as well as those employed by local authorities. The scheme is in process of being converted into regulations which, it is hoped, can be made later this year.
      The Minister of State for the Civil Service Department set out the reasons which had led to the Government decision not to make use of the Crombie code for future statutory reorganisations in his letter of 10th September to the General Secretary of the TUC. The code is extremely complex. It provides for the discounting of compensation when there are prospects of alternative employment. It also calls for the review and adjustment of compensation for up to two years after the loss of employment. The code was introduced at a time when the availability of redundancy benefits was much less widespread. It is becoming increasingly difficult to justify the application of a different compensation code simply because a particular reorganisation results from a statutory change. It is for these reasons that the Government intend to rely in future on the compensation arrangements which have been negotiated for each service. My Lords, it seems to me to be eminently sensible and fair in the light of conditions as they are today.
      Lord PONSONBY of SHULBREDE: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his reply which, unfortunately, I do not find very satisfactory. He does not appear to be seized of the particular problem that local government officers feel that they are being less fairly treated than were their predecessors when similar enactments affecting their job prospects were enacted

      695
      by Parliament. However, I shall study his reply again with interest, but, in the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
      Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
      Schedule 31 [Minor and consequential amendments]:
      Lord BELLWIN Lord BELLWIN moved Amendment No. 179:
      Page 290, line 4, leave out from (" acquisition ") to end of line 5 and insert (" by the Land Authority for Wales under section 100 of the Local Government, Planning and Land Act 1980;

      (k) an acquisition by means of an order under section 136 of that Act vesting land in an urban development corporation;

      (l) an acquisition by such a corporation under section 137 of that Act; ").

      The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is a technically necessary amendment to extend and clarify the technical modifications to the Land Compensation Act 1961. It deals with land acquisitions by the Land Authority for Wales under Clause 100 of the Bill and land vested in or acquired by urban development corporations under Clauses 136 and 137. I beg to move.
      Lord BELLWIN Lord BELLWIN moved Amendment No. 179A:
      Page 291, line 5, at end insert—
      (" (6) In Schedule 2 to the Land Compensation (Scotland) Act 1963 (acquisition of houses as being unfit for human habitation) at the end of paragraph 1(1) there shall be added or

      (h) an acquisition by means of an order under section 136 of the Local Government, Planning and Land Act 1980 vesting land in an urban development corporation; or

      (i) an acquisition by such a corporation under section 137 of that Act.".")

      The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is the Scottish equivalent to Amendment No. 179. It makes the necessary modifications to Schedule 2 to the Land Compensation (Scotland) Act 1963. I beg to move.
      Schedule 32 [Repeals]:
      Lord BELLWIN Lord BELLWIN moved Amendment No. 181:
      Page 295, line 19, leave out from (" subsection ") to end of line 22 and insert (" (4), the word "also" ")
      The noble Lord said: My Lords, I spoke to this amendment with Amendments Nos. 9 and 10. I beg to move.
      [Amendments Nos. 182 to 187 not moved.]
      10.30 p.m.
      Lord SANDFORD Lord SANDFORD moved Amendment No. 188:
      Page 301, line 24, after (" 12 ") insert—
      (" In subsection (1)(a) the words "to any relevant matter arising out of a survey carried out under section 6 or 11 of this Act and ".").
      The noble Lord said: My Lords, this amendment is to remedy a defect in a previous amendment, No. 317A, which I moved and then withdrew at Committee stage, after my noble friend Lord Bellwin indicated that it went further than the Government would wish to go. This new amendment merely seeks to dispense with the present requirement in Section 12(1)(a) of the Act for publicity to be afforded to matters arising out of a mere survey of an area where a local plan is being prepared, but would retain the requirement for adequate publicity to be given to matters included in the plan itself, to enable representations to be made in connection with such proposals.
      This is one of a batch of amendments in my name at this point and at an earlier point in the Bill which had been worked out by my noble friend's department and myself. This particular one, I understand, is acceptable to Her Majesty's Government, and I would hope between this stage and Third Reading the others, which we had thought to have got right but which proved not to be right, can be retabled either by myself or my noble friend. I beg to move.
      Lord BELLWIN: My Lords, this amendment is part of a series with all the Us and Vs and Ws. This is acceptable.
      The Earl of AVON moved Amendments Nos. 118UA to 188ZA en bloc:

      Page 303, line 35, at end insert—

      ("9 & 10 Geo. 6. c. 49.

      Acquisition of Land (Authorisation Procedure) Act 1946.

      In Schedule 1, in paragraph 3(1), the words in head (b) from "except" to "case", head (c) and the proviso, and in paragraph 7A, the words "the confirming authority and to" and the words "or affixing of notices ".")

      column 3, leave out lines 39 to 43 and insert—

      (" In section 23(3), the words following paragraph (ii).")

      Page 303, line 45, column 3, leave out from ("(5)") to end of line 49 and insert ("the words following paragraph (ii).").
      Page 304, line 6, leave out from ("(b)") to ("(6)") in line 7 and insert ("(3) to").
      column 3, leave out line 8 and insert—

      ("In section 122, in subsection (2), the words "open space" in paragraph (a) and the words following paragraph (b), and subsections (3), (5) and (6).")

      Page 304, line 11, column 3, leave out ("Section 126(5)") and insert—

      ("In section 126, in subsection (4), the words "open space" in paragraph (a) and the words following paragraph (b), and subsections (5) and (7),").

      The noble Earl said: My Lords, with your Lordships' permission, I should like to move Amendments Nos. 188UA to 188ZA en bloc. They are all consequential on amendments I spoke to earlier today to Schedule 22. I beg to move.
      Viscount SIMON Viscount SIMON moved Amendment No. 188A:
      698

      Page 305, line 11, at end insert—

      ("7 & 8 Eliz. 2. c. 25.

      Highways Act 1959.

      In section 127(c) the words "or a gipsy,"").

      The noble Viscount said: My Lords, I think the noble Baroness, Lady David, spoke to this amendment earlier. I beg to move.
      The Earl of AVON The Earl of AVON moved Amendment No. 188B:
      Page 305, line 34, column 3, at beginning insert ("Section 144(3)")
      The noble Earl said: My Lords, this amendment repeals Section 144(3) of the Local Government Act 1972. This repeal, together with the repeals of Section 73(2) and Section 8 of the Greater London Council (General Powers) Act 1978, is consequential on Clause 180 of the Bill, which removes the present restrictions upon local authorities advertising the commercial and industrial advantages of Greater London. I beg to move.
      The Earl of AVON The Earl of AVON moved Amendment No. 189:

      Page 305, line 37, at end insert—

      ("1973 c. 37.

      Water Act 1973.

      In Schedule 3, paragraph 11(2).")

      The noble Earl said: My Lords, this amendment repairs an omission in the Schedule of Repeals. Up till now water authorities have been entitled to pay allowances to their members by virtue of the provision in Schedule 3 to the Water Act. They will now be brought into line with a number of other bodies who may pay allowances under the Local Goverment Act 1972. The Water Act provision should, therefore, be repealed. To omit to do so would undoubtedly lead to confusion. I hope that the House will accept this amendment. I beg to move.
      Clause 185 [Scotland]:
      10.35 p.m.
      The Earl of MANSFIELD The Earl of MANSFIELD moved Amendment No. 190:
      Page 150, line 9, leave out ("Parts V, IX,") and insert ("Parts IV, V, IX, XII,")
      The noble Earl said: My Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 190, and I should like to speak to Amendments Nos. 191, 192 and 193. These are all technical amendments necessary to clarify the application of this Bill to Scotland. As was noted by my noble friend Lord Morris during the Committee stage, the convention in explaining the application of a Bill to Scotland is that where one is dealing with a United Kingdom statute and no express provision is made excluding Scotland, then it applies to Scotland. This clause, therefore, sets out those parts which either do not apply to Scotland or apply only in part.
      The first amendment, Amendment No. 190, adds two further Parts which have partial application to Scotland, namely, Parts IV and XII. Amendment No. 191 sets out the relevant sections which explain the partial application of each of these Parts. Amendment No. 192 simply deletes a Part which applies in part to Scotland. Amendment No. 193 is to rectify a drafting error: it adds a reference to Clause 177 which does not apply to Scotland. I beg to move.
      Lord ROSS of MARNOCK: My Lords, I think that we are grateful to the Minister of State for producing something with which we very nearly agree. I just wonder, though, whether his first amendment is really necessary—the amendment which refers to Part XII. After all, when we look at the part which is referred to it says that that part does not refer to Scotland and refers us to a reference in a schedule. So to my mind there was no real need for him to make that change. But I can understand that he was anxious to do something that appeared to indicate that they had read the Bill and fully covered it.
      As regards Amendment No. 191, is it intended—and this relates to Part IV—that they will put in the numbers rather than the rubric and the subject of the section? It is very unusual to depart from putting in numbers and then suddenly putting in:
      "Vice-chairmen of councils in Scotland and application of Part IV to Scotland".
      It would be very clumsy if we were to leave it in that way, but I think that probably when the Bill is reprinted and every-
      700
      thing is set out properly we will be able to put in the sections.
      I turn next to Amendment No. 193, which will now read: "In this Part of this Act …" What is "this Part of this Act"? Could we not just put in the part number or is there some difficulty as regards putting in the part number? What is the part number? I ask any noble Lord who holds the Bill to help me, because it bears the roman numeral, XVIX. I do not know what that is. Can anyone tell me?
      Lord MOTTISTONE: My Lords, I drew the attention of the Public Bill Office to this point and they said that it was a printer's error.
      Lord ROSS of MARNOCK: My Lords, Yes, indeed, but there is not just one printer's error; there are about seven or eight. At one point it becomes part of the page number of the Bill. If we had had an erratum at the right time it would have helped a lot. I was mystified by this. I looked for XTX and could not find it very well. I presumed that it was that.
      Lord MOTTISTONE: My Lords, if the noble Lord would allow me, we agreed that perhaps the printer had not learned Latin at school.
      Lord ROSS of MARNOCK: My Lords, even those of us who learned Latin at school were a bit confused by this one. It goes right through the Bill. It is right at the beginning as well. Latin is the normal lunchtime language between civil servants and Ministers; they do not talk in any other language. We could have spotted this. Anyway, the amendments will be helpful.
      I was going to make a long speech about this because, honestly, this is not the way to deal with Scottish legislation. There is no reference to Part I. I presume that the whole of Part I applies to Scotland. When the Bill was first printed in the Explanatory Memorandum it said that part of Part I applied to Scotland. Anyone trying to read this Bill in Scotland may not realise that at the end of the clauses there is another 150 pages of schedules. We dealt with them as we went along, but I doubt whether any Scots lawyer reading that would know of the schedules or parts of

      701
      the schedules apply to Scotland. There is no similar guide.
      Therefore, if we are going to make a mess of this and spatter Scotland throughout what is virtually an English Bill, then let us do it properly. However, I accept the amendments. They are the best amendments that have been produced by the noble Lord in the past two days.
      Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOE: My Lords, may I just say that I think this is an historic occasion. I have never known my noble friend Lord Ross of Marnock mystified in the whole of my life until tonight.
      10.41 p.m.
      The Earl of MANSFIELD The Earl of MANSFIELD moved Amendment No. 191:
      Page 150 line 10 leave out ("sections 43, 88") and insert ("sections [Vice-chairmen of councils in Scotland and application of Part IV to Scotland 43, 88, 107").
      The Earl of MANSFIELD The Earl of MANSFIELD moved Amendment No. 192:
      Page 150, line 12, leave out ("X and XII") and insert ("and X").
      The Earl of MANSFIELD The Earl of MANSFIELD moved Amendment No. 193:
      Page 150, line 14, leave out ("173 to 176") and insert ("173, 174, 175, 176, 177").
      Clause 186 [Northern Ireland]:
      Lord BELLWIN Lord BELLWIN moved Amendment No. 194:
      Page 150, line 19, leave out from ("section") to ("19") in line 21 and insert ("119; in Schedule 16, so much of paragraph 5 as relates to section").
      The noble Lord said: My Lords, I come to the last of the amendments. I certainly must not rush this one. It is, in fact, a drafting amendment to correct a reference in Clause 186 which sets out the provisions in the Bill which apply to Northern Ireland. The amendment adds to the list Clause 119, which happens to be the only clause in the Bill which applies to Northern Ireland, and removes the reference to Clause 118. I beg to move.
      Lord DENHAM: My Lords, we have come to the end of what has been a very long and extremely interesting Report stage of a Bill, and I think that your Lordships have given it a great deal of worthy consideration. I see the noble Baroness the Opposition Chief Whip opposite me and I think that on behalf of my noble friends on these Benches, 1 should thank your Lordships for the amount of consideration that you have given to this Bill. There have been times when we wished that the progress was a little more rapid. There are times when perhaps we wished that the consideration would have been a little less intense. But I thought I should mark the end of this stage by thanking your Lordships for what has been perhaps a severe ordeal, and I know that the noble Baroness will agree on this one point perhaps, that we are very glad to get to the end of the Report stage.
      Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOE: My Lords, I think that is the only point throughout the course of this entire Bill on which I have agreed with the noble Lord the Chief Whip. Nevertheless, as always he treats us with courtesy and kindness. We deeply appreciate what he has said. We disagree with everything that he stands for and, I think, possibly everything he believes in, but we nevertheless very much appreciate his courtesy and his care for this House. We for our part could have gone on for very much longer. We think the Bill still needs an enormous amount of correction and a great deal more consideration. But, as a matter of fact, if I may be absolutely frank with the House, we just are too exhausted to go another minute further.