Lords Sitting of 14 October 1980

Preamble
The House met at half-past two of the clock: The LORD ALPORT on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Salisbury.

HEATHROW-VICTORIA: COACH SERVICE
Baroness BURTON of COVENTRY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have received any further information from British Airways concerning the future operation of the coach service between Heathrow and the Victoria Terminal.
Lord TREFGARNE; My Lords, British Airways announced some three weeks ago that they will cease their coach service between Heathrow and the Victoria Terminal on 14th November. However, I am pleased to say that London Transport will commence two new coach services linking London with Heathrow Airport, one of which will run from Victiora, and these will start from 15th November, the day after the British Airways service is to cease. The new London Transport Victoria to Heathrow service will run from Grosvenor Gardens, adjacent to Victoria railway station, and should therefore be more convenient for those passengers making onward travel arrangements by public transport.
Baroness BURTON of COVENTRY: My Lords, is the Minister aware that I am delighted that at last some progress is being made to rectify the seven-year rundown of the bus service, ever since this House voted in December 1973 to retain the services at the West London Air Terminal? Is he also aware, to be fair, that I appreciate the way in which British Airways have kept me informed of this through the Summer Recess? Finally, in connection with what he said today, may I ask him three brief points? Will the stopping places where passengers are
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picked up have adequate shelter accommodation for passengers and their luggage, in view of the British climate? Secondly, will help be available to put the luggage on to the buses? Thirdly, what publicity do London Transport envisage so that the public may be aware of the service offered?
Lord TREFGARNE: My Lords, I think the happy outcome to this matter—and I hope the noble Baroness agrees that that is what it is—is in no small measure due to the pressure which the noble Baroness has maintained from at least as far back as 1973, which date she mentioned On the three points which she raised, there will indeed be shelter constructed in Grosvenor Gardens for these services; and I understand that the necessary publicity, or some publicity, will be put in hand.
Lord BYERS: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord, as one who has been interested in this question for some time, at what intervals these buses will be leaving?
Lord TREFGARNE: My Lords, I understand that the frequency of this service will be the same as the frequency of the British Airways service which it replaces.
Baroness TRUMPINGTON: My Lords, perhaps I may point out to my noble friend that he did not answer one of the noble Baroness's supplementary questions, about whether there would be help with luggage. Also, I should like to know whether he can possibly use his influence to have advertisements put in the Tube to Heathrow advertising the fact that an alternative bus route is available.
Lord TREFGARNE: My Lords, I will convey to London Transport the noble Baroness's view about advertisements in the Heathrow underground. As for the point about baggage which she raised, the question of crewing the services is a matter for London Transport, to which I suggest my noble friend refers her question.
Baroness BURTON of COVENTRY: My Lords, is the Minister aware that, of course, we have another Question down for Thursday, when he might be able to amplify these points? Is he also aware that I am pursuing London Transport?

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Finally, with reference to the point made by Lady Trumpington, it would be nice to see not only "Fly the Tube" on the advertisements, but "Why not use the bus?"
Lord TREFGARNE: My Lords, as the noble Baroness knows, a new chairman was recently appointed to London Transport, who is, I fancy, very much aware of these points.
Baroness MACLEOD of BORVE: My Lords, can the Minister tell us whether these buses are one-man buses, or whether there will be somebody to help with the luggage?
Lord TREFGARNE: My Lords, as I said earlier to my noble friend Lady Trumpington, the crewing of these buses is a matter for London Transport, to which I suggest my noble friend refers her question.
Lord STRABOLGI: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord what time the first bus will start in the morning? Is the noble Lord aware that the first Tube does not allow passengers to get the early planes?
Lord TREFGARNE: My Lords, I do not have the times in front of me, but I understand that the times of the first and last buses, like the frequency of the service, will be the same as for the British Airways service which this service replaces.
Lord GORE-BOOTH: My Lords, may I, as at one time a perpetual traveller, express my warmest thanks and those of other people to the noble Baroness, and also to the Government for finally acceding to what she has been urging for so long?
Lord SOMERS: My Lords, so far as luggage is concerned, is there any reason why the Tube trains should not include a luggage van?
Lord TREFGARNE: My Lords, I understand that some of the coaches on the Tube service are specially constructed so as to accept luggage, but if I am wrong on that point perhaps I might write to the noble Lord.

CHILE: DIPLOMATIC REPRESENTATION AND ARMS SALES
2.41 p.m.
Lord HATCH of LUSBY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in view of recent events, they will make a statement on the level of their diplomatic representation in Chile and their policy towards selling armaments to that country.
Lord TREFGARNE: My Lords, relations with Chile were restored to ambassadorial level earlier this year. On 22nd July my noble friend the Foreign Secretray informed your Lordships that the embargo imposed by the last Government on defence sales to Chile would be lifted. This remains the position.
Lord HATCH of LUSBY: My Lords, is the noble Lord the Minister aware that on July 18, four days before the armaments sales were resumed, a British citizen, Miss Wilson, was released from prison in Chile by the British diplomatic officers there? Can he tell the House whether the British diplomatic mission in Chile has been able to discover whether she or anyone else within their purview has been the subject of torture; and if the answer is, Yes, how does he equate that with the statement of his noble friend Lord Strathcona on 10th March of this year in this House (col. 54):
"We would not export arms to a country which is guilty of torture?"
Lord TREFGARNE: My Lords, the case to which the noble Lord refers was drawn to our attention slightly later than the noble Lord indicates. The decision on the arms embargo was taken and announced before the allegations of torture came to our attention. But, in any event, a single case such as that to which the noble Lord has referred is not necessarily one that would alter our policies in this matter.
Lord AVEBURY: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the person concerned, Miss Wilson—or friends acting on her behalf—lodged an affidavit with

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our embassy in Santiago on July 22nd stating that she had been tortured and that, to put it at its lowest, announcement of the restoration of arms sales to Chile was a matter of singularly unfortunate timing? Is the noble Lord aware that Miss Wilson is not the only person to have been tortured recently by the Chilean regime? In particular, her fiancé, Mr. José Benado, whose relatives live in the United Kingdom and who have asked the Foreign Office to intervene on his behalf, was viciously tortured at the same time as Miss Wilson. Would the noble Lord say how many cases of torture are required to be drawn to the attention of the Government before they will reconsider the question of arms sales to that country?
Lord TREFGARNE: My Lords, it is true that the human rights situation in Chile is less satisfactory by far than we would wish. On the other hand, it is the case that there has been an improvement in the situation there since 1974 when the embargo was imposed. We have to judge our decisions and reach our conclusions on these matters in the light of all the considerations, including British interests.
Lord HATCH of LUSBY: My Lords, this really has not answered the Question. As the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, has pointed out there have been many substantiated cases of torture in Chile. It is not simply the question of Miss Wilson. The noble Lord will recall that of Dr. Cassidy some years ago. There have been many other cases established by reputable international authorities that torture is practised in Chile. When he says that the British Government have to take all sorts of things into consideration, how does he equate that with the plain statement of fact made by his noble friend that I read previously and will repeat?
"We would not export arms to a country which is guilty of torture…".
It does not say how much torture; it says "of torture". How does he equate the two statements?
Lord TREFGARNE: My Lords, I feel sure that if my noble friend had been speaking at greater length he would have qualified some of the things that he said—which is a general quotation which the noble Lord has taken quite out of context.
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The fact remains that we have to judge our actions in these matters according to British interests and according to all the circumstances prevailing.
Lord GEORGE-BROWN: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that there are many countries in the world where, to use his phrase, "the human rights situation is less satisfactory that we would wish"; and that some of us feel that this continual singling out of this particular country, whereas the others are never mentioned, is an example of double standards which some of us find very hard to defend?
Lord TREFGARNE: My Lords, the noble Lord is quite right. The fact is that the situation in Chile, although, as I have said, unsatisfactory, is indeed not worse than in many other countries with which we have dealings. All our European partners traded with Chile, including arms trading with Chile, during the time that we enforced the embargo.
Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOE: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that we on this side attack torture wherever it happens—wherever in the world? Is he further aware it is not a matter of our simply singling out Chile? Is he aware that Cardinal Hume has made a special appeal to the Government, in view of his evidence from Chile that torture is growing and that the security police have been given new draconian powers; and that he appealed to the Government not to sell arms and not to resume trade?
Lord TREFGARNE: My Lords, I have no doubt that if the Cardinal had looked elsewhere he would have found unfortunate evidence of human rights breaches and, perhaps, torture in other countries as well. As for the supply of arms to Chile, although the overall embargo has been lifted, all arms sales to Chile remain subject to strict licensing procedures.
Lord ELWYN-JONES: My Lords, the noble Lord ventured to suggest that my noble friend had quoted the observation of the noble Lord, Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal, out of context. I do not think that that was a right suggestion

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to make. The observation of the noble Lord was:
"My Lords, I have already said that the way in which a potential client government conduct their affairs is one of the issues that we take into account. We would not export arms to a country which is guilty of torture".—[Official Report, 10/3/80; col. 540.]
Does not the raising of the level of diplomatic representation in Chile amount to a vote of confidence in a régime inflicting torture?
Lord TREFGARNE: No, my Lords it amounts to no such thing. The purpose of diplomatic representation, particularly as far as Chile is concerned, and, indeed, in all countries where the human rights question may be questionable is, among other things, to give us a better line of communication to that government and to make our views known on their policies.
Lord AVEBURY: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the noble Lord, Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal, in a subsequent debate on the Government's policy on arms sales generally, retracted the unequivocal statement that we would not sell arms to a country guilty of torture when he corrected himself to say that the Government would not sell arms to these régimes which are guilty of torture that could be used against the civilian population—however that may be defined? Is the noble Lord aware that it is impossible to make any such clear distinction and that if we are to stand up and be counted in matters of human rights we ought not to sell arms, not only to countries like Chile but also to Argentina and Ethiopia and any country found guilty of atrocities against its own populations?
Lord TREFGARNE: My Lords, that is rather wide of the original Question. So far as Chile is concerned, we would not license an arms sale where those arms were clearly intended for repressive purposes.
Th MINISTER of STATE, MINISTRY of AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES and FOOD (Earl Ferrers): My Lords, we have given this matter—which is important—a pretty good run. If it is for the convenience of your Lordships, perhaps we ought to pass on; but I notice that the noble Lord, Lord Brockway,
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has been trying to speak on two or three occasions. May I suggest that he asks his question and that we then move on?
Lord BROCKWAY: That is very kind of the noble Earl. My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether he is aware that the noble Lord, Lord Strathcona, made this statement in answer to a Question that I put to the House? If he will look at the Official Report, he will find that the noble Lord, Lord Strathcona, made no qualification whatsoever in his statement that we would not supply arms to countries guilty of torture.
Lord TREFGARNE: My Lords, as I said earlier, if my noble friend had been speaking at greater length, I am sure he would have done so.

NUCLEAR NON-PROLIFRATION: REVIEW CONFERENCE
2.51 p.m.
Lord BROCKWAY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what were the conclusions of the review conference of the Non-Proliferation Treaty held in Geneva, from 11th August to 5th September.
Lord TREFGARNE: My Lords, The Government regret that the review conference was unable to reach consensus on a final document. But the discussions revealed broad agreement in many important areas and underlined the commitment of the parties to the cause of non-proliferation.
Lord BROCKWAY: My Lords, would the Minister agree that the result was profoundly disappointing? Did it not arise from the fact that in the original non-proliferation treaty there was a clause stating that the nuclear powers would pursue efforts to secure nuclear disarmament? Have they not instead increased immensely the number of the nuclear arms and increased the power of their destruction a thousand times?
Lord TREFGARNE: My Lords, I would not agree that the results of the review conference are profoundly disappointing; but I would accept that they were slightly disappointing. None the less, the treaty remains intact. There was no question of withdrawal by any of the 115 parties and five signatories to the treaty, so I think that all is not gloom. However, with regard to the other point made by the noble Lord, it is true that the general efforts at disarmament have not proceeded as fast as we all would have wished. I do not think that even the most starry-eyed signatories to the nonproliferation treaty would have expected us to enter into disarmament agreements which were one-sided or underminded our defence posture.
Lord BROCKWAY: My Lords, no one is suggesting that. Is not the case that the Soviet Union has repeatedly made proposals for the dismantlement of all nuclear weapons? It is judged to be insincere. If it is thought to be insincere, cannot it be tested by negotiations on their proposals?
Lord TREFGARNE: My Lords, one of the main difficulties regarding our negotiations with the Soviet Union on this matter is verification. We need to be sure that any measures agreed between the parties at Geneva or elsewhere can be properly verified. So far that is not the case.

BRITISH COMPUTER MANUFACTURE: GOVERNMENT AID
2.53 p.m.
Viscount HANWORTH: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will consider what encouragement could be given for the production of a British designed and manufactured small computer, already at the prototype stage, in order to help relatively small firms to increase their productivity and to benefit from the availability of a British computer costing between £1,500 and £4,000.
Viscount LONG: My Lords, the development of new and successful products is crucial to the future prosperity of British industry. Her Majesty's Government are anxious to encourage this process, particularly in high technology areas such as computing. In appropriate cases, financial assistance may be available under various schemes which are administered by the Department of Industry.
Viscount HANWORTH: My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Viscount for that helpful reply. It only remains for me to speak to him outside the Chamber. I will give him particulars about the firm I have in mind which I do not think would be appropriate at the present time.
Lord WHADDON: My Lords, will the noble Lord reassure the House that any firm which receives assistance from the Government will not be badgered by political organisations for contributions to party funds, as has happened in the case of firms in the North-East which have been badgered for funds on behalf of the Conservative Party? Will the Government use their good offices to try to prevent this?
Viscount LONG: My Lords, I would not agree with the first part of the noble Lord's question. The establishment of manufacturing facilities for computers in a special development area would be eligible for regional development grants. In addition, regional selective assistance under Section 7 of the Industry Act could be available throughout the assisted areas. The Government find that computers are a vital industry at this moment and are only too interested to get this product moving. At the moment we do not have all the information underlying the noble Viscount's Question.
Lord WHADDON: My Lords, will the noble Lord try to make quite sure that the names of firms receiving assistance are kept strictly secret so that political parties do not abuse their position?
Viscount LONG: My Lords, it is up to the Government to encourage and not discourage. Therefore if any company comes forward with an idea or a new product, it is for the Department of Industry to help in all ways that they can.
Lord LEATHERLAND: My Lords, may I put a question which I hope will be helpful to the noble Viscount? If a company which receives a grant of money from the taxpayers also makes a contribution to Conservative Party funds, may we take it that that is purely a coincidence?
Viscount LONG: My Lords, I thought I was talking about an inquiry about a computer, not party political broadcasts.

DINNER
Lord DENHAM: My Lords, it may be for the convenience of your Lordships' to know that dinner will once again be available this evening. It is expected that the Committee stage of the Local Government, Planning and Land (No. 2) Bill will be adjourned at approximately 7 p.m. for approximately one hour.

MARRIED WOMEN'S POLICIES OF ASSURANCE (SCOTLAND) (AMENDMENT) BILL
2.57 p.m.
Lord WYNNE-JONES: My Lords, in moving the Third Reading of this Bill, may I remind the House that its rapid and non-contentious progress through the House was made memorable by the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Ross of Marnock, who, quoting from Robert Burns, said at col. 1712 of Hansard for 7th August:
"Amid the mighty fuss just let me mention,
The rights of women merit some attention".
I beg to move that the Bill be now read a third time.
Moved that the Bill be now read 3a. —(Lord Wynne-Jones.)
On Question, Bill read 3a, and passed.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT, PLANNING AND LAND (No. 2) BILL
2.58 p.m.
The PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY of STATE, DEPARTMENT of the ENVIRONMENT (Lord Bellwin): My Lords, I beg to move that
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the House do now again resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.
Moved, that the House do now again resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Bellwin.)
Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOE: My Lords, I feel that the time has come when the whole House must ask the noble Lord the Chief Whip some questions about the further conduct of this Bill. I do not want to delay the Committee. In spite of sitting during the night until nearly three o'clock this morning we still have a very long way to go. We have about 169 amendments before us and many debates on whether clauses shall stand part of the Bill. We really must ask the Government how they propose to deal with this.
As everybody knows, we on this side of the House violently disagree with a great many parts of this Bill, and our misgivings have been shared in all parts of the House. We have never obstructed it in any improper way, and we do not propose to do so now. Nevertheless, the discussions which all the usual channels have together about business arrangements, which normally take place in the background and in private, I feel now have to be carried out in public. The House is not being allowed by the Government to discharge its proper functions of revision. We are supposed to, and always do, revise Bills with infinite care on all sides of the House. But with this Bill we are being asked to rush helter-skelter through most important questions which affect local democracy.
As the Bill has proceeded it has grown. It is about six Bills in one, and the longer we debate it the larger it gets. I should like to give the House just one example. The noble Lord, Lord Bellwin, tabled eight amendments after the first Marshalled List was published. Only yesterday he tabled two extremely difficult, technical amendments. How is the House to be able to consider and debate the Bill as we should?
Because the Bill has grown as we have gone on with it and because the Government have had to give us an extra day on Committee, necessarily the Report stage will grow. We shall need at least three, if not four, days on Report and we shall

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further need longer time than has been assumed on Third Reading. How the Government expect to do all this with the printing difficulties of which we are all aware, I simply cannot imagine. Does the noble Lord think we are going to debate the Third Reading without a printed Bill before us and with no manuscript amendments allowed?
I feel very sad to speak in this way to the Government, but I must tell the House quite honestly and openly that we first warned Her Majesty's Government at the beginning of the Session that their programme was impossible. We repeated it in July before we rose, and we said that their plans for the overspill could not be done, however constructive the discussion was. I must again tell the House that we on our side warned the Government again last week that we could not see how these Bills could be completed and debated properly and constructively.
I am very sorry to raise these questions in this manner. Normally we do it all amicably and each side tries to help the other, although of course our duty is to oppose what we think is wrong. But I think the whole House requires a clear answer from the noble Lord as to how he proposes to carry through the increasing length of this Bill.
Lord DENHAM: My Lords, I fully understand the desire of the noble Baroness to raise these very real difficulties in this way on the Floor of the House and I am grateful to her for the clear and moderate way in which she has made her point, and indeed I am grateful to her for having given me notice that she intended to do so.
I do of course appreciate that the Committee of the Whole House on the Local Government Bill was asked to sit until a very late hour last night. Indeed, I cannot deny that the Government are asking this House to consider a long and complicated Bill within a tight timetable. I acknowledge this here and now, and would not for one moment accuse noble Lords opposite of deliberately delaying the Bill. I must say, however, that, in view of the progress that we did in the end manage to achieve yesterday, the Government will be hoping that the
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Committee Stage can be completed today. I hope that noble Lords will do all that they reasonably can to ensure that this is the case because I really believe that it would be in the interests of the House as a whole. We will keep a careful watch on progress this afternoon and I can assure your Lordships that I will make a further statement today, perhaps at the dinner adjournment.
I have, of course, taken careful note of what the noble Baroness said about the remaining stages of this Bill. I can say now that we will do all we possibly can to ensure that the House is given an opportunity for proper consideration on Report. So far as the noble Baroness's general remarks on this legislative programme are concerned, I do not wish to follow her at this stage on a post-mortem into what might have been, but of course I regret the pressure under which the House has been working. We have before us, however, legislation to which the Government attach the very greatest importance, and I am sure the House will recognise the need to get this programme through.
Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOE: My Lords, I welcome the fact that the noble Lord will consider during the day the progress that is made on the Committee stage and that he will let us know how far he thinks we shall get tonight. I must repeat again: 169 amendments and debates on Clauses Stand Part. I think he will be a genius if he gets this through without driving us all mad!
Lord DENHAM: My Lords, I think that Chief Whips have to be mad to start with, though possibly not geniuses!
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The LORD ALPORT in the Chair.]
Schedule 20 [Land: miscellaneous amendments]:
3.5 p.m.
Lord AVEBURY Lord AVEBURY moved Amendment No. 227:
Page 193, line 14, leave out paragraph 9.
The noble Lord said: may I say, first, how very much I welcome the interchange which has just taken place between the two Front Benches, as a Back-Bencher who has to endure the long hours which are inflicted upon us by the Government, frequently without any knowledge of their future intentions and without the ability to try to plan one's diary or time table. I think that if more of these exchanges could take place in the open between these two Front Benches so that the rest of us can listen to what is said and thereby glean whatever we are able to from the statements made by the Government Whip, it would be an enormous improvement. I hope that the precedent set by the noble Baroness, Lady Llewleyn-Davies, will be continued, and I look forward very much to the statement which has been promised for the dinner hour by the Government Chief Whip so that we may know roughly where we are going and whether we can expect to remain here until three o'clock, as we did this morning.
I was rather tempted, when the Minister announced that we were to have dinners this evening, to ask him whether he would agree to provide breakfast tomorrow morning as well, because if we are to give adequate consideration to the large number of clauses which we still have to examine to complete the Committee stage, as the Government hope, before we rise, then that would certainly be necessary.
I do not want to rub it in, but most of the talking that was done last night was in fact on that side of the House, as one could see by the rebukes that had to be administered to certain Government Back-Benchers, who were particularly long-winded. But I leave that aside for the consideration of the Government Chief Whip, whose business it is to get the timetable through.
I come to the first amendment this afternoon, which deals with a very important matter for a great many Londoners; that is, the preservation of the green belt. It is a matter in which I have been personally interested since I had the honour of representing the constituency with the largest land area in Greater London and the largest amount of green belt open space within its boundaries. We very jealously safeguarded the beauties that were available in my constituency for
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the whole of the citizens of Greater London and which they enjoyed in very large numbers from the time the green belt policy was first decided before the war. People came out on the number 47 bus to Farnborough and then were immediately in open fields that could have been very many miles from the outskirts of the metropolis. They had the benefit of the open spaces and the unspoilt countryside which our predecessors so wisely safeguarded in the legislation which was first introduced before the war.
Therefore anything that waters down the power to keep these open spaces inviolate should be resisted at all costs. I am happy to say that there is an organisation, the Green Belt Council for Greater London, which has been in existence now for some 30 years and which is dedicated to this objective. It has societies affiliated to it in different parts of London and the Home Counties. It has made a practice of lodging objections at numerous public inquiries, either by representation or by letter, in any matter which injuriously affects the metropolitan Green Belt.
It is also concerned with the maintenance of open land which is covered by statutory use restrictions. Noble Lords will appreciate that in the Metropolitan Green Belt there are very considerable areas of land which bear the double designation of public open space and Green Belt. Accordingly, the Green Belt Council has expressed to us its uneasiness with the effects on public open space, Green Belt, of some of the provisions of this Bill and, in particular, of paragraph 9, which we now seek to delete by this amendment.
What this paragraph would do, if it were enacted, is to relieve the Secretary of State of the obligation to give his consent to the change in any use of public open space. We believe that the Secretary of State's consent ought to be maintained, because there is always a temptation for local authorities to redesignate open space for some other purpose, some more profitable purpose, and thereby there is a continual erosion of the spaces which are now available.
I saw this even in my own constituency. Indeed, every time I drive through it now there appear to be new buildings going up on what were formerly green fields which

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all the people of London could enjoy. I am very sorry when I see that because, although I would not try to pretend that every bit of the metropolitan Green Belt is of outstanding natural beauty, once you breach the principle that this land should be inviolate, it is very difficult to know where to stop. So I am indeed sorry when I see huge housing estates going up on what were in my youth—and, indeed, until very recently—open fields that everyone could enjoy. That is why I want the existing safeguards to remain and ask the Committee to support us in this objective.
I should say before I sit down that I am given to understand by the Green Belt Council that their suggestion, which is incorporated in this amendment, is supported by the Council for the Preservation of Rural England, the Commons Preservation Society and the Ramblers' Association among others. We very much hope, therefore, that the Minister will be disposed to accept this amendment. I beg to move.
The Earl of AVON: I am happy to be speaking to the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, again, just 12 hours and 32 minutes since we were last talking to each other. First, may I talk about the Green Belt and then come more generally on to this amendment. There are two forms of land under the Green Belt: first, the land designated as such in the Green Belt (London and Home Counties) Act 1938; and, secondly, land in the context of Green Belt land which is designated as such. There are two different pieces, but Schedule 20 will have virtually no effect on either in the context of Green Belt land. Land in this category is of two kinds and the relevant development or structure plans apply to them. A departure from the plans would require advertisement and reference to the Secretary of State for consideration, before it could be called in. We have already made it known that we should want the strongest possible restraint on development in such areas.
If I may now come on to the more general aspect of this schedule and, in particular, of this amendment, it is probably desirable to look at the genesis of the provisions in Schedule 20. In February 1979, the local authorities published
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a document entitled Review of Central Government Controls over Local Authorities. This review identified a number of decisions which were capable of being taken locally, and concluded that the need to obtain the Secretary of State's consent represented a wasteful and expensive duplication of effort.
The Secretary of State accepted this argument and published in the White Paper entitled Central Government Controls over Local Authorities, a list of central Government controls that he proposed to relax. In general, the response to the White Paper was favourable and the bulk of the proposed relaxations were incorporated into this Bill, including those which are contained in Schedule 20, and particularly the one which is the subject of this amendment. The vast majority of these relaxations have already been approved in another place and by your Lordships. In pursuing this amendment, the noble Lord would appear to be saying that while he is prepared to entrust a whole range of new and important decisions to local authorities, he is not prepared to delegate decisions affecting the appropriation of open space.
It is intended to introduce, by way of a Government amendment at Report stage, a new provision requiring authorities to publish their proposals and to consider objectives. So the key issue here seems to be whether or not local authorities can be relied upon, first, to consider any objections which result from the publication of proposals to appropriate open space to another purpose; and, secondly, to reach a decision on whether or not to proceed with their proposals.
In taking a decision, they will be only too aware that they may have to justify it to the ratepayers or to the local electorate. If we cannot entrust to local authorities decisions about local open space, we bring into question the desirability of entrusting a whole host of other decisions to them. The Government believe that the locally elected body is the best place to decide whether or not a particular piece of open space is essential to the locality, and whether exchanged land is necessary if the existing open space is to be used for other purposes.
At the end of the day, the responsibility of the locally elected body is to reconcile

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whatever conflicts have emerged. If the authority decide that it is desirable to provide replacement open space, these new provisions will not prevent them from doing so. I realise that I have spoken rather more on the general subject than on the Green Belt, but I hope that my original remarks about the Green Belt will satisfy the noble Lord and that accordingly he will be able to withdraw his amendment.
Lord AVEBURY: I am very grateful to the Minister for that helpful reply and for the reassurances which he has given, particularly the one concerning the amendment which he says the Government propose to table at Report stage, obliging local authorities to publish any proposals for the diversion of open space to other use and to consider the objections which ratepayers or other interested parties may lodge to those proposals. It would be only wise for us to examine what the Government have in mind, and to see whether the rights of the objectors are deemed to be satisfactory by the Green Belt Council and the other interests concerned. So until we can do that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Schedule 20 agreed to.
Clauses 107 to 109 agreed to.
Schedule 21 agreed to.
Clause 110 [Acquisition and disposal of land by the Crown]:
3.18 p.m.
Lord UNDERHILL Lord UNDERHILL moved Amendment No. 228:
Page 95, line 11, leave out ("as may appear to the Secretary of State to be expedient") and insert ("as may best promote the policies adopted in the relevant structure plan of the county planning authority").
The noble Lord said: This is an amendment to subsection (6), which empowers the Secretary of State to dispose of land that may be held by him or by any other Ministers. It provides that the Secretary of State is empowered to dispose of such lands:
"in such manner and subject to such conditions as may appear to the Secretary of State to be expedient".
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Numerous references have been made throughout the debate on this Bill to the powers given to the Secretary of State, and this seems to be another exceptional power.
But before putting down the amendment, I thought it wise to check in the Concise Oxford English Dictionary the definition of the word "expedient", and I found that it is advantageous, suitable, but also politic rather than just. I am just wondering whether the latter is the criterion which is intended in this subsection.
The amendment seeks to leave out the words,
"as may appear to the Secretary of State to be expedient",
and instead to insert:
"as may best promote the policies adopted in the relevant structure plan of the county planning authority".
I believe that the amendment is a safeguard to ensure that expediency does not override the policies in the county plan. Noble Lords will note that the wording is rather different from that which the Government could not accept yesterday when we referred continually to the "structure plan". As I think that this would meet the Government's wish, I hope they will find it possible to accept the amendment.
The Earl of AVON: If I may correct the noble Lord, it was this morning, not yesterday, when we talked about the structure plan. The only way the Secretary of State could give any meaningful effect to this amendment would be by way of imposing a condition on any sale limiting future development of the land to that which may best promote the policies adopted in the relevant structure plan. It is difficult to see how this could produce any worthwhile effect. Since development outside the policies of the structure plan is unlikely to be permitted there would seem little point in suggesting that disposals should be subject to conditions requiring development to be within these policies. Moreover, the amendment only has the impact of an exhortation, as the section itself allows for a wholly permissive disposal arrangement which the amendment does not seek to alter.
It is difficult to recommend the amendment. Irrespective of conditions attached

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to a disposal, the land could not subsequently be used or developed, except by an approved departure, otherwise than in conformity with the structure and local plan. The type of restrictive condition proposed is therefore likely to have little or no practical effect in achieving the objective of the amendment.
Your Lordships will know that a structure plan is a general statement of planning and environmental policies; it is not site specific, as we said earlier today, and in any particular transaction any conditions aimed solely at promoting structure plan policies would be exposed to doubt and challenge. It has to be recognised that a land transaction is a contract between two parties. If conditions imposed were in terms wholly directed to the amendment's objective, some purchasers could be put off. In undertaking development, private enterprise often gives effect to the policies adopted in any relevant structure plan, but this is only one of the considerations a prospective purchaser will have in mind.
I think I ought to make it clear that were this amendment to be adopted it would not prevent the Secretary of State from ignoring its effect, since the clause provides for a wholly permissive disposal arrangement which the amendment does not seek to alter. I should like to suggest, under this charming word "expedient", that this clause is advantageous, suitable, politic and perhaps even just. On those terms, I invite the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.
Lord MORRIS: I believe that the intention behind the amendment has a certain merit. As my noble friend Lord Avon said in his answer in response to the amendment, it may even be just. This is the key. I believe that the use of the word "expedient" is not capable of legal test and might cause considerable problems in the future. I bitterly regret that my noble friend Lord Renton is not here to be of help to me on the point. However, I draw great comfort from the fact that the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate is sitting on the Front Bench. If he could give to the Committee the benefit of his wisdom on this particular point, I for one would be most grateful.
The Lord ADVOCATE (Lord Mackay of Clashfern): Perhaps on another occasion.
Lord UNDERHILL: Although I appreciate the statement made by the noble Lord the Minister, I am still not satisfied. In the circumstances, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. However, this may be justification for the discussion which we could not carry through last night, because of the lateness of the hour, on the value of positive planning in the Community Land Act.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 110 agreed to.
Clauses 111 to 113 agreed to.
Clause 114 [Stuns to be paid to Secretary of State]:
3.25 p.m.
Baroness STEDMAN Baroness STEDMAN moved Amendment No. 229:
Page 97, line 19, at end insert ("and shall satisfy himself that such payment does not undermine the programme of planned development of the town and is consistent with the principles of sound financial management of its assets".)
The noble Baroness said: I should like to move Amendment No. 229 and at the same time to speak to Amendment No. 230. As the clause stands at present, the Secretary of State can give a direction to a new town development corporation to sell its assets. This is just another example of the misconception that a Secretary of State will know better than the local people whether or not that proposal is sensible and whether or not it is in the interests of the new town development corporation or, indeed, in the interests of the new town that it is the development corporation's job to serve. The Secretary of State in this clause can demand money, regardless of the views of the new town development corporation.
The quite specific responsibility of the new town corporation is to secure the development of the town under their responsibility. The development corporations up and down the country were appointed by the Secretary of State to carry out that responsibility, as embodied in the New Towns Act. That responsibility cannot be carried out if we give to

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the Secretary of State the powers for which he asks in this Bill. I am certain that the objective of the present Secretary of State is first to enable the Treasury to grab the money and so reduce the public sector borrowing rate and, secondly, to sell off valuable industrial and commercial assets on the cheap, because that is what a wholesale policy for the sale of these assets would mean. Large numbers of industrial and commercial assets coming on to a depressed market at the same time can only have the consequence of depressing the price paid to the public purse for them by would-be buyers.
The proposed policy is liable to present individual development corporations with very grave difficulties, in that the rental income which they at present obtain from these assets, which the Secretary of State orders them to sell, is vital to the new town's finances to enable them to pay off the debt that they have incurred as a consequence of their original developments. It may even mean that some development corporations may find themselves unable to complete the development of the new town, the responsibility with which they were charged under the New Towns Act, and some may even face insolvency.
Amendment No. 230 would take away the power of the Secretary of State to require a corporation to comply with his direction and, if they failed to do so, simply to take the money. Again we have the presumption throughout the Bill that the Secretary of State is the one who knows best. This subsection would allow him to take the money, regardless of whether the corporation feels this action will have a damaging effect on the job it is attempting to do for the new town and its community.
These proposals really have nothing whatever to do with the interests of new towns. They are just a continuation of the Government's obsession with the public service borrowing rate. Subsection (3) covered by Amendment No. 230 is a wicked and detrimental part of this clause. If the new town development corporations have to sell, then it puts them in a buyers' market. They will know that they must sell, the potential buyers will know that they must sell and the buyers will know that even if the price they offer is lower than reasonable
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the new towns will have to accept, or subsection (3) will come into operation. The new towns have been told to find £120 million this year and something like £200 million next year. How can they do that in a depressed market? And why put yet another penalty clause into this Bill for new towns? This will be the worst type of public asset stripping.
I believe that these clauses are an attack on the whole principle and basis of new towns. The proposals in this clause alter the whole relationship between the Department of the Environment, the new town corporations and the commission. Until now that relationship has been a good one. I have seen it work from both sides, both as a board member for Peterborough New Town and as a junior Minister at the Department of the Environment. That relationship has always been productive and constructive. Could it be that when the Secretary of State looked at his list of Quangos he decided not to tackle the new town corporations but to clip their wings so that they cannot carry out their duties and responsibilities under the New Towns Act, but, like the rest of local government, become just puppets of the Secretary of State?
Let me make it quite plain that a new town has been able to sell its assets if it wants more money which Government cannot give it, and the roll-over principle of selling assets and reinvesting the income in further assets is well understood throughout all new towns. Our objection is to the Secretary of State having power to instruct them to sell assets and to pay the receipts into the Consolidated Fund to reduce the public sector borrowing, because that has nothing whatever to do with the interests of new towns. I maintain that the value of new town assets should extend and accrue in community ownership, and if and when the time is right for sales the money so raised should go to completing the existing new towns more quickly and then to helping with inner city areas. It should not go to the Treasury to reduce PSBR or be used for tax hand-outs to the wealthy. I speak with some knowledge of the Peterborough New Town. Under the last Government our target population was reviewed and was reduced to 150,000, allowing by natural growth up to 160,000 by the mid-1980s, and our

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investment has been planned on that basis. The present Secretary of State has just reduced our designated area and I believe the population to be achieved is at present under further review.
Termination dates have already been agreed for the mark one and mark two new towns, with Skelmersdale and Washington due for completion in 1985. What is now needed more than anything else is a firm termination date for the mark three new towns such as Peterborough, Milton Keynes and Northampton. These third-generation new towns have still got a major job left to do. Their development corporations have to bring their new towns to a satisfactory state of completion and they must be able to exploit the very heavy public expenditure that has been involved in their infrastructure, and at the same time exploit their potential for growth. In Peterborough, our city centre is being redeveloped with the support of private investment from the Norwich Union to the tune of something like £25 million. The money invested in new towns is not only public money. Overall a very great deal of private investment of pension funds and the like has gone on over the years. We are trying to develop a regional shopping centre. We have industrial and commercial land still available and it is imperative that we are allowed to build up our population base to support the growth that we have succeeded in generating.
Early completion of these third-generation new towns is essential to enable them to enhance their existing assets and to continue to create new ones. A policy which enabled this to happen would be the best for all concerned, but it will not be achieved by asset-stripping, as proposed in this Bill, or by denying the new towns the use of capital resources from the sales they make when the Minister orders them to find £X millon at any given time. New towns have made a tremendous impact and they have provided hundreds of thousands of people with good homes, schools, services, leisure amenities and jobs, and I plead with the Minister to heed what those of us from new towns are saying, to give them a realistic date of completion, to allow them to do the job to the advantage of the town
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and to enable them to have sound financial management of all their assets. I beg to move.
3.25 p.m.
Baroness DENINGTON: I have the greatest pleasure in supporting the contention of the noble Baroness, Lady Stedman, and I thank her for her excellent speech. I support this amendment very strongly, because exactly what it says and indicates may happen, is happening. What is now being required of new town corporations and the Commission for New Towns means that their programme of planned development is being undermined and the principles of sound financial management hitherto followed scrupulously by these bodies can no longer be adhered to. I must give a little history of this matter, and I would make it clear to your Lordships that I myself was an actor on the stage through discussions that took place and a meeting with the Minister as the chairman of Stevenage New Town. I have been right through it. I am no longer connected because Stevenage was wound up last month, having finished. We had no grumble at being wound up. We had got to a stage where it was wise and proper that we should be wound up, and the town is now resting in the kind hands of the Commission for New Towns.
But I have been through this story, and to me it is a very distressing story. It starts in July of last year—1979—when the Secretary of State called all the new town chairmen and the general managers to come to a meeting in the DOE, with no indication whatsoever as to what we were being called for or what we were to talk about. When we got there we were issued with what I and my fellow chairmen will describe as a diktat demanding the realisation of assets to produce £100 million by the following March—nine months ahead. I know that the Secretary of State contends, and has contended when he has been challenged on this, as he has in another place, that he asked corporations to undertake what he required of them. It did not come over as a request, by any manner of means at all—by tone of voice, by words, by anything; it just came over as an order. I might add—I hate to do so, but I must—that it was accompanied by what I call a rather mean and nasty piece of blackmail, in that the new towns

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collectively—because we worked collectively—were told that until we gave an undertaking that we would raise for the Minister the £100 million which at that stage he demanded of us there would be a moratorium on the letting of all contracts.
I quote the little paragraph from the letter sent to new town corporations on 17th July 1979. The writer was an official. It says:
"I should explain that the moratorium on the letting of new contracts includes those for which corporations would normally have the authority to accept under delegated powers …"
—that is, without the DOE knowing anything about it. So there was a complete and utter stopper on any further progress being made in the new towns until the Minister had the guarantee that we would do our utmost to produce this money. Such a thing was not called for. There was no discussion with the Minister. Having made his diktat, he left us. There was no discussion. There was no consultation whatsoever with new towns. This was the Government's order, and there it was. When he got his undertaking, which was given as rapidly as possible, of course the moratorium was lifted. But to have put it on was really so unnecessary and to me such an unmannerly way to act towards the new town corporations.
There is another point. The Secretary of State must surely have been advised by his advisers—I cannot think it was otherwise, knowing the civil servants as I have done over many years—that what he was asking corporations to do was of doubtful legality; and certainly in the case of two corporations it turned out to be entirely illegal. Although my corporation did not like it, we were doing our best as fast as we could to satisfy the requirements of the Secretary of State. We were disposing of a very important section of our town centre, actually to the GLC pension fund and the pension fund solicitor, or the agent acting for him, said, "We are unable to proceed because this is illegal". It is really most distressing that a Secretary of State at the Department of the Environment could really behave so. But there it was. Those of your Lordships who have had the Notes on Clauses will see that they make it quite clear that the legislation is needed to legalise the demands of the Secretary of State, so that now he is on strong ground.
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I was horrified to read in those Notes on Clauses the following—I am quoting from the document:
"Subsection 1 provides the Secretary of State with a power to direct a development corporation or the Commission of the new towns to pay him on a specified date a sum specified in the direction".
Now, the important part is the comment that follows:
"Comment. The Secretary of State does not at present have adequate powers to compel corporations or the Commission to make him payment".
With regard to the word "compel" I put it to the Committee that the new town corporations and the commission have always been loyal servants of the nation, no matter what the complexion of the Government. They have done whatever was required of them, as they should as an agent of the Government—because that is what they are. For anybody to be able to write such words, indicating that it is thought that they have to be compelled to behave properly, I find most distasteful and really most distressing.
The £100 million was not raised by last March and that was not because anybody was wanting not to co-operate, but for the simple reason that there was not time. We had to appoint agents to deal with the matter, we had to instruct agents, they had to meet the corporations. We met as rapidly as we could and dealt with matters as rapidly as we could, but they had to make detailed surveys of the properties that were to be marketed; we had to advertise the sales once the disposals had been selected and then all the negotiations had to go on, on what were really large property deals—and they are not dealt with in five minutes. In my view, it was absolute nonsense to expect that the sales could be completed within the nine months from that diktat.
The balance of the £100 million was not raised because there was not time and this year the Secretary of State has demanded that this year's demand, which is over £200 million, shall now be added to the original £100 million that was not raised. This all has to be raised by next March and, as the noble Baroness, Lady Stedman, said, that means flooding too much property on to a market at one time when buyers know full well the pressure that there is on corporations to

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sell. Of course it depresses prices at a time when the market is sluggish anyway, as unfortunately we all know it is. It also means that, in order to sell, properties have to be marketed now that would realise much higher prices in a year or two, for instance after there had been new rent reviews. I have been advised by all the valuers that such is undoubtedly the case. It means selling properties which are still "green"—not ready for marketing—and which really should not be considered for sale at all. But the money has to be raised. The new town corporations are the agents of the Government so the money has to be raised whether or not it is wise to sell.
Again, as the noble Baroness, Lady Stedman, said, the object of this exercise is really to raise money for the PSBR, then, after that, for the redemption of debt on the new towns and then, thirdly, for the continuation of the new town development. That again is made absolutely clear in the Notes on Clauses, where it says in Note (v):
"The sum so received will be paid into the Exchequer and shall be capable of being used for general purposes unconnected with the new towns as well as for the repayment of new town debts on past loans from the national loans fund and for the financing of the continued new town development".
I would remind the Committee that the original demand was made very soon after the Government had redeemed their election pledge to reduce income tax. To raise money to help to fund that electoral exercise the dissipation of one of the nation's profitable ventures was demanded, for the new towns have reached a stage of very good profitability and the taxpayer's money and the private investor's money, which have already been referred to by the noble Baroness, Lady Stedman, will, over the years, show a very handsome return indeed.
I make no bones about saying that the corporations would not really have wished to have sold at all, but they have been required—and they were required by the last Government—to roll over their assets in order to continue development. This they have done but, if the Government go on demanding the wholesale realisation of assets because of the present economic need, then, as the noble Baroness Lady Stedman suggested, it should be done in a
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properly considered and phased programme—not all rushed out and sold off cheaply at one moment. Surely it would not be unreasonable to say that the continuation and completion of this very imaginative project, of the new towns which has received worldwide acclaim—I do not know how many thousands of foreign visitors we have coming to see these towns every year—should be a first charge on the sums that are raised.
It might also be expected that, in doing this exercise, if the Government find it vitally necessary to carry out these sales in order to raise money, then as much as possible should be saved for the nation. Surely the clear way to do that, looking to the future, would be to sell leasehold and not freehold. But that does not appear in this Bill. If your Lordships read it, you might almost think that you would have to go on bended knees to get the Secretary of State to let you sell for more than 99 years. But the Instruction dated 31st July 1980, Guidance on the Terms of Disposal, reads:
"Ministers wish to see disposals take place on a basis which, as far as possible, frees development corporations from all further involvement in the property and which does not involve any form of retention of a share in the equity".
It then continues:
"Disposals should therefore be on a freehold basis".
Private enterprise is to be given the complete bonanza. This of course is Tory Party policy. I would hope that it is not only those sitting on this side of the Committee who feel it is not a wise policy in all instances.
A further point is that the towns (and I think that this was not appreciated in another place when this matter was discussed in Committee) are not being allowed to sell in order to meet their own urgent needs. To give one instance, the new town of Stevenage has an all-pedestrian centre which depends on plentiful and adequate car parking. Another car park is urgently needed. Short spur roads are also needed, to open up two further sites for industrial development where a lot of those little units are planned—which everyone in this House is saying are so urgently needed by the nation, and which could be let as soon as they are built. If neither the car parking nor the money for these little

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pieces of roadwork are allowed we may not sell to develop the town but only to get the Minister his over £300 million.
Lord MILVERTON: I would ask my noble friend the Minister to accept the amendment. As I understand it, it seems to be reasonably sound and fair. There are many cases where the question has been raised whether it is right that the Secretary of State should have so much power. I believe that we must be careful that too much overriding power is not given to the Secretary of State. It could be dangerous, for whoever the Secretary of State is and of whatever party.
3.53 p.m.
Lord ROSS of MARNOCK: I hope to hear some information from Scotland. I do not see political Ministers on the Front Bench but I do see the Lord Advocate, who has been doing a sterling job on this Bill. I do not know why. Could he explain how this will work in Scotland? That the Secretary of State may direct a corporation to pay him on the date specified such sum as is so specified, is a clause that should not be passed. It is not specified in the Bill. It is a sum to be thought up by the Secretary of State. In this case, we are not talking about the Secretary of State for the Environment, but the Secretary of State for Scotland. I know the Secretary of State for Scotland very well. He is my local MP. I have never voted for him, but that is beside the point. I am perfectly sure, however, that neither he nor the Scottish Office thought this up. This bears the hallmark of a political dictator.
The story that has been told by the noble Baroness, Lady Denington, is appalling: that the Secretary of State proceeded to tell the new towns, and by implication so did the Secretary of State for Scotland, that they were to take £100 million from them when they had no power to do so. Even before they have the power, because we have not yet passed the Bill, they will take another £200 million and, because they had not the power to get it last year and it was impractical anyway, they will add that on. This is a retrospective exercise of dictatorial, illegal powers. I do not know whether the Committee is prepared to accept it, but I certainly cannot see any
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body concerned about the constitution and the powers of Ministers allowing them to get away with this.
I should like to ask some specific questions about Scotland. We have five new towns. They are nowhere near the commission stage. They have been doing a first-class job in providing new houses, new factories, all the facilities which go with that in respect of health services and so on. They are a credit to the people who thought out the idea of trying to deal with what we have inherited from the first Industrial Revolution, by getting people out of Glasgow and out of areas which were beyond improvement, to give them a new chance. They have prospered. They have built up assets. Now the Secretary of State is telling them: "You are going to sell these; you are going to sell them by the time I tell you, and you are going to provide me with a sum of money." In fact he can change his mind about that £300 million and make it £400 million. There is no power to stop him. This is a forced sale. There is not a businessman sitting on the other side of the Committee who would say that this is good business. It has to be done by a certain time.
I do not know the position of the new towns in England. Some of them are in the South. But think of the position of new towns in Cumbernauld, in Irvine—one of the black spots in Ayrshire at the present time. When one appreciates exactly how little in the way of new investment from private industry is coming in, if they are to sell at this time it is bargains galore, and they will not have the chance to retrieve the situation when times are different. This is deplorable. I am surprised that a man such as the Lord Advocate should come into politics, in a sort of non-political field such as the law of Scotland, and lend himself to this.
I want to know exactly how much is demanded of each of the Scottish new towns. I also want to know the dates in respect of which they have to pay for it. When I was Secretary of State there was no Conservative who would let me get off with hits, and I will not readily allow the Secretary of State for Scotland to get off with this raiding of the new towns—for that is what it is. It is more than that. It is not just money that is involved; one has to think of what happens to the new

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town itself. What is new town property and what is national property then becomes something very different. It is not just a question of saving some money or reducing the borrowing power that the Treasury has to face up to. The nature of the new towns is being changed, for the worst possible reason. I hope that the Lord Advocate will defend this situation as far as Scotland is concerned, let me know what are the specific sums that they have to pay and the dates, and what consultations there have been with the new towns.
Lord DAVIES of LEEK: This is one of the worst pieces of piracy that we have had. We are seeing here one of the ugliest features of monetarism. There is no doubt about it. The purpose of this amendment is to try to rescue something of the new towns, of which Britain was proud. I remember that when we first started them, in some of the blacker areas, people from all over the world came to see British new towns.
As I said last night, we have tried, on both sides of the Committee, to have a constructive debate. We have tried to calm down on the party political side of it but, in the name of the Lord and for heaven's sake, will noble Lords opposite and those on this side of the Committee try to realise what will happen! Take a new town like Cymbran in South Wales, where contiguous areas will face the ugliness of massive unemployment and the sordid business of apathy through unemployment. Some areas that are bright are going to be left open to the "cowboys", the investors and anybody who can make a grab. As my noble friend said, it will be bargains galore in all these towns.
This applies wherever you look at the policy. Take the taking over of the Post Office. What happens. The Government looks for the profitable bit of it and says, "Let us take that and give it to private enterprise." But they would not deliver letters to farms in my division of Leek when I was Member there, or the part of Wales where I was born up in the mountains. On the old tuppenny letter you lost on delivering to a farm but you gained on delivering in the next street. What have they done. They have taken the famous slogan, socialise the losses and
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privatise the profits of national and other types of enterprise. Wherever anything shows a little profit they say, "This is typical example of initiative." I remember reading as a young man Cecil's book on The Philosophy of Toryism and it praised itself on the Christian spirit behind Tory-ism. It was the case of the old Tory Party. Many of the reforms in this country came from Christian Conservatives in the history of this country. Suddenly what is happening. We are forgetting some of the purposes of building fellowship and building up elegant and decent surroundings for the humble people, the peasants and the others. Today what do we see? The new town managers and others are being treated as though they were hoodlums. They are told the Secretary of State will take powers; if they fail to comply with a direction the Secretary of State may recover the sum required as if it were a simple contract. In other words, he puts them up in the police court, metaphorically speaking. They are treated as though they are petty diddlers. The Secretary of State does not at present have adequate powers to compel cooperation and he is looking for powers to compel, not for powers to appease, not to join and make a constructive effort out of the new towns, but powers to compel.
I regret that this comes forward in this form. Once again it proves we are overworked; we are rushing a Bill that should be in six various Bills—not just one. We are not taking time to study it in depth; we are not taking the time to think, and we are denigrating the position of this noble House in the process of legislation so far as the country is concerned. If ever this House justified its abolition it is by the kind of piracy that is suggested in some of these Bills that are now whipping through the House at three or four o'clock in the morning when elderly Members of the House are overworked. This is not a party political issue; it is more or less a philosophical one about where this nation is going. I sincerely hope that some noble Lords opposite will go into the Lobby against this Bill.
Lord STEWART of FULHAM: I have listened with horror to the story my noble friend Lady Denington has told us. It gives a meaning that some of us had not

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fully realised to these clauses of the Bill. There is one aspect which has not been touched on which I would like to mention. I presume that in due course we shall be able to know who are the purchasers of this land that the new towns are going to be obliged to sell, as a piece of bad business often at a wrong time, because the episode in our history this reminds me of most is the dissolution of the monasteries, for which an ideological reason was put up, but the driving force behind it was greedy and ambitious people who wanted to get their hands on the property. Of course it is known that the foundations of some of the great families in this country today were laid at that time of looting. It will be very interesting to know if some of this land passes ultimately into the hands of people who have quite a long tradition of active interest in the fortunes of the Conservative Party.
Indeed, where did this idea originally come from? My noble friend Lord Ross of Marnock said he saw a politician's hand in this; I think a businessman's hand as well. Somebody at some stage in the inner councils of the Conservative Party said, "Here is a something where we can really make a killing", and thanks to the speech of my noble friend Lady Denington we now know about it. I hope we shall all hold the Government to giving the fullest possible publicity to how this works out with the new towns, what they have to sell and to whom they sell it.
Lord ROBERTHALL: I know very little about new towns. I had the impression that the Government put up the money for them. I must say that what we have heard so far is very disquieting, and I hope that the Minister will give us something of the background. As your Lordships know, I am an economist, and one of the first lessons you learn when you get on to the subject of taxation is that one of the canons of taxation is certainty, that everybody should know what they have to pay. On the face of it this looks as if the Secretary of State could just make up his mind what he is going to levy. I see that in subsection (6) some of it can be treated as repayment, but I take it that since the Minister has to get these powers now the new towns are something more than just a creature of his from whom he can recover anything he likes. That is all
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I want to say, I do think it is an unusual sort of thing to find in a Bill, and I hope that the Minister is going to tell us a little more about it.
Lord MISHCON: At 1.15 this morning the Committee was asked to debate, before a very much diminished and somewhat fatigued Committee, powers that the Secretary of State was taking to himself in order that he could direct local authorities and public bodies to sell property they owned without the Secretary of State being subjected to any appeal procedure, and with the right to do so limited by very vague words that are in the Bill. My noble friends and I, with our Liberal colleagues who joined us, refused to debate at Committee stage such important provisions and such important powers as were being accorded to the Secretary of State, and we made a protest about the mismanagement of this Bill which led to such vital clauses and such vital powers being debated before a much attenuated Committee. It adds no dignity to this House for our business to be so arranged, and apart from adding no dignity it takes away from us the powers which at present we are supposed to exercise and which many people in many places are attacking. It does no good to the continuance of this House and its prestige for matters to be dealt with in this way. Some of us who are attached to the traditions of this House do not welcome such examples which are being given to opponents of this House.
Having said this, I direct myself now to the issue that is before us in regard to this amendment. My noble friend Lord Ross of Marnock dealt with political issues, and did so with his usual ability to direct himself to a point most incisively.
I want to deal, if I may, and if the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate will allow me to, with the legal issues involved in this clause. I have yet to find in my memory—and I do not know whether the Lord Advocate can give me an example—a provision in a Bill which, in regard to a public body directed by Act of Parliament to carry out certain statutory duties, gives to a Minister of State the unlimited right to demand of it a certain sum of money, unspecified, and without prejudice at all to the question whether or not the statutory powers of that body can still be carried out if the demand is in

1151
fact satisfied. I know of no example and I ask the noble and learned Lord this—and it is a simple matter: Can he please guide the Committee by giving it a precedent? I know of none.
To quote what the Committee may feel is a ridiculous parallel, I happen to be a member of the National Theatre Board. The board was set up to deal with certain statutory duties. I am a member of the South Bank Theatre Board. It, similarly, was set up to perform certain statutory duties. What a mockery it would be if somebody, be he the Minister for the Arts or whoever it is, were given the power to direct us to pay a certain sum of money, unlimited, unqualified, to him on a certain day, and the ability to sue us as a statutory body on the basis that we were liable in debt to the Minister, to the Government. Who are the people who are supposed to be running the new town corporations? Are they people who are being paid huge sums of money in order that they may have a directorship of a new town, or are they people like my noble friend Lady Denington, who has devoted years of her life to public service, with great distinction, in carrying out what is a very vital national task in regard to the new towns?
So I ask the noble Lord the Lord Advocate whether he can do three things. First, can he give us a precedent? Secondly, in regard to the advice that he would give to client, would he ever advise any client to submit to an unlimited demand when that client is trying to carry out a duty imposed by somebody, without any qualification? Thirdly—a simple question, and then I shall sit down—would he advise any reputable businessman to sit upon a board of a new town corporation when somebody outside his control can demand of his corporation an unspecified, unqualified, unlimited amount, with the result that if a new town corporation could not pay it the Secretary of State could make it insolvent, get a judgment against it as a simple contract debt, or any debt, and put it into liquidation, so that for the very first time the person carrying out that public duty would be a director of an insolvent concern?
This issue would be laughable if it were not tragic, and this is where this House stands at this moment. I am not,
1152
as I said, going to argue any question of politics at all. I am talking as a humble lawyer, and I hope I have talked common sense. If this House does not pass this amendment, at least limiting the powers of the Secretary of State in regard to what he can do, this House is carrying out no reforming, revising duty whatsoever. It is merely gathering Division fodder from wherever the people may be in the House in order to put over what is an outrageous clause in this Bill.
4.16 p.m.
Lord SANDYS: In rising to speak to this amendment, may I first of all acknowledge the expertise of the two noble Baronesses who first spoke. The noble Baroness Lady Stedman, of course, has long years of experience on the Peterborough New Town Corporation, and may I say how warmly we welcome the fact that the noble Baroness Lady Denington spoke with such obvious knowledge and feeling of her very long experience on the Stevenage New Town Corporation. It is one of the great justifications in your Lordships' House that those who address us on particular subjects speak from profound knowledge, and I think it is a particular privilege to listen to speeches which have been delivered with such conviction.
I must address myself first of all to the terms of the amendment, and then I will attempt to answer as many of the points as I possibly can. The purpose of Clause 114 will be well known. It is to give the Secretary of State power to raise money from the new town corporations and from the commission for the new towns. This is a vital contribution towards our policies of reducing the public sector borrowing requirement and reducing public sector land holdings, and in her opening remarks the noble Baroness, Lady Stedman, rightly identified the purpose.
The amendment would undermine the whole purpose of Clause 114 and involve a return to the restrictions on disposals found in the New Towns Act 1965, which requires that disposals should be expedient—and there is that word again—for securing the development of the new town or for connected purposes. We certainly do not envisage that the disposals programme will undermine the

1153
programmes of planned development of the towns or be inconsistent with the principles of sound financial management, but it is for the individual development corporations to plan their disposals with this in mind, and it would be neither feasible nor desirable for the Secretary of State to interfere in the individual decisions of the development corporations. Such involvement by the Secretary of State would be contrary to the intentions of Clause 114 and I therefore call upon the noble Baronesses to withdraw their amendment.
I feel, from the very considerable depth of feeling expressed, that your Lordships would like me to answer as many as I can of the points made, and of course I must do my best. The noble Baroness, Lady Stedman, opened her remarks by suggesting that these clauses—and these are very important clauses in the Bill—were a direct attack on new towns. I can assure the noble Baroness that this is not the case. It is the view which she and her noble colleagues have taken of this matter. I think it is perhaps a matter of presentation and experience, especially in the case of the noble Baroness, Lady Denington, of what has taken place.
I think where we have common ground with the noble Baroness, Lady Stedman, is over the roll-over principle, which she accepts entirely, and so told the Committee. She said that her objection was that the power was given to the Secretary of State. I would point out that in Clause 114 this is a permissive power. It does not say that the Secretary of State will exercise it, it says "may exercise" it; and I think it is clear that he is going to exercise it. He will probably do so both in England and in Scotland—and of course the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Leek, mentioned Cwmbran in Wales.
I should like to refer to what the noble Baroness, Lady Denington, said in regard to the Secretary of State's request for £100 million in disposals. I think that the Secretary of State explained that it was necessary to reduce the net call on the Exchequer by some £100 million. My understanding is that he offered the new towns two choices: either to raise this finance by sales or to stop the new towns investment programme in order to save an equivalent sum. To suggest, as the noble Baroness suggested, that that is blackmail
1154
is one interpretation of the matter. Nevertheless, that was the global position in which the Government found themselves when taking office in May last year. Such was the need to examine and carry out urgent variations in the financial management that this series of discussions took place as early as the noble Baroness described, in July 1979.
I turn to the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Ross of Marnock, who asked about how the Bill would work in Scotland. The Bill provides for the Secretary of State to consult the new town development corporations before specifying the amounts to be raised. The noble Lord referred to some very important developments in Scotland of which we can all be extremely proud. I think that he referred to Cumbernauld; East Kilbride, which is now the sixth biggest town in Scotland; Irvine; and Livingston; but I do not think that he mentioned Glenrothes. He asked how much was wanted of each of the new towns; the dates concerned and what consultation will take place. Obviously, the local circumstances of each new town are highly important in this context. The Committee will have noticed that the size of the programme of £330 million has been related to the English new towns. The Scottish new towns have their disposals programme for rollover and reinvestment of assets, but that is on nothing like the scale of the disposal and reinvestment in England and that is precisely because of the local circumstances to which the noble Lord referred.
The noble Lord, with his experience as Secretary of State for Scotland, will know that it is very difficult for me to expand further at short notice on the questions he asked in regard to dates. But, I shall attempt to discover the information and I hope to write to him in due course.
Lord ROSS of MARNOCK: I hope that the noble Lord will be able to do so before the Report stage.
Lord SANDYS: I have every intention of doing it at the earliest possible moment.
Lord AVEBURY: The practice, which is being followed so frequently, of Ministers promising to write to an individual member is highly unsatisfactory

1155
because it means that nobody else has any knowledge of the contents.
Lord SANDYS: I recognise the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, and, of course, he is perfectly right. But there is a remedy which would be open to the noble Lord, Lord Ross of Marnock, and that is to put down either a Starred Question or a Question for Written Answer. I do not know whether either those courses of action recommend themselves; they probably do not in view of the timescale involved. Nevertheless, it is extremely difficult to meet the point of detail and I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Ross, would not wish me to make an ill-considered reply without the full information for which he has asked.
I turn to the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Stewart of Fulham. I must say that I found that his speech contained a very unworthy charge. However, I should point out that most of the major sales so far contemplated are to pension funds and insurance companies—in other words, to organisations as regards which small savers band together to invest their savings in the best possible way. I hope that that will satisfy the noble Lord. He also asked the Government what they have to sell. I do not think I can answer that in any very precise form and certainly not at present.
I turn to the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon. He evidently assumed that my noble and learned friend the Lord Advocate was to reply. I fear that I am a pale shadow compared with my noble and learned friend, and I regret to say that I cannot satisfy the noble Lord on any of the three questions which he asked, though I do not think that he expected me to do so, because they were rhetorical questions.
Lord MISHCON: I am sure that the noble Minister will be good enough to give way in view of the somewhat summary fashion in which he used his own discretion in defining my questions, calling them rhetorical. They were not rhetorical: they were questions that I specifically asked in my humble judgment for the guidance of the Committee. I shall repeat them. My first question was as follows: is there any precedent that the
1156
Minister can give the Committee of a Minister or Secretary of State being able, through an Act of Parliament, to demand any sum he wanted, unqualified and unlimited, from a body set up to do a statutory duty? That is not a rhetorical question—I do not know the answer. I believe that it is without precedent, but the noble Lord can correct me.
As regards the second question which I asked—I asked it of a fellow lawyer, if I may say so with deference, but I am perfectly sure that the Minister can be briefed in regard to his reply—it was not a rhetorical question. Indeed, I shall try to make the last two questions into one question. Could the Minister possibly advise any responsible businessman to become a member of a new towns corporation knowing that his liability, when sitting there, was to answer a demand, unlimited and unqualified, which might be addressed to the new towns corporation through the unfettered power of a Minister, and theoretically at least, put himself in the position of being a member of a board of an insolvent company?
Lord SANDYS: I think that I can, to some extent, satisfy the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, on his first question. I can quote two precedents. One is in the New Towns Act itself. If the noble Lord will examine it, he will find it under Section 4(2), which gives power for the Secretary of State to give directions,
"for restricting the exercise by them of any of their powers under this Act".
Lord MISHCON: Again I ask the Minister to give way because this matter is so vital. If I am straining the patience of the Committee I know that I shall receive an indication and I shall sit down. But I hope that the Committee will think that I am trying to do my duty as a member of this House. The first example by way of precedent given to me comes from a brief—and I do not wish to be offensive to anybody—which, if it were given to me in a professional capacity, I would have to return because it does not deal with the case that I am supposed to be arguing. Talking about restricting powers in the New Towns Act has nothing to do with the unlimited power of a Minister to demand an unlimited, unspecified and unqualified sum from a new towns corporation, a statutory body. It is to that matter that I asked him to direct his mind, and,

1157
if he requires further time in which to be briefed on it, I shall understand. I say this with all respect, but knowing that he had to argue this clause, I should have thought that it would have been a matter on which he could have satisfied himself beforehand.
Lord SANDYS: In this particular case I think that the noble Lord has dealt with his point in extenso, to which I do not object. In fact, I think that the opportunity given on this amendment is certainly one which is of his own choosing. I have a second precedent, but I do not think that I shall quote it now.
Several noble Lords: Why not?
Lord SANDYS: Nevertheless, I shall certainly take up the noble Lord's invitation because he offered me the alternative of the opportunity to consider, and that I shall do.
Lord FOOT: Before the Minister finally sits down on this matter, he has now undertaken to see whether he can find an answer to the questions which were addressed to him by the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon. But in a little while, as I understand it, this Committee will be asked to vote on this amendment. It cannot be left like that. The noble Lord has asked certain questions to which a factual answer can be given. No answer has been given, and I understand that in a few minutes' time we shall be invited to go into the Lobbies without any satisfactory answers—or, indeed, any answer at all—having been given to these vital questions. I suggest to the Committee that that is a wholly unsatisfactory state of affairs.
Baroness DENINGTON: Perhaps I may detain the Committee for one further moment just to clear up two points that were raised by the noble Lord arising out of some remarks that I made. For the information of the Committee, I should like the Committee to understand that there were no discussions with individual corporations. When we were faced with this diktat and a strict timetable to be observed, we saw at once that we had to act as we had always acted, as a group—all the new towns and the commission together—to look at our assets right across the board.
1158
After the commission, which holds four towns, my corporation set out to raise—and would have raised if we had had the time—more than any other town, because we were the first new town and therefore our assets were mature. We had also kept the whole value for the public purse rather than frittered it away, as I would regard it. So we elected a committee and all the new towns sat together to look at all the assets, and then did the best they could right across the board to satisfy the demand of the Secretary of State.
The noble Lord said that we were offered two choices—to raise the money by sales or to stop our progress, to stop any action, and to raise an equivalent amount of money by not building anything or doing anything; in other words, simply to cease to exist. That could not be considered for a moment. A lunatic would not have put forward such a suggestion. The new towns have gone to infinite lengths to build up the confidence in them of investors and industrialists everywhere. One cannot get confidence suddenly by turning round when someone is in the middle of negotiations and saying, "Sorry chum, it's all off". That is just not on and the whole Committee must know it. Therefore, it was an absolutely crazy thing to do, a misunderstanding. A man who understood what the new towns were doing and what they were about could not have put it forward, and so it never started.
Lord SANDYS: I think that I must reply to noble Lords. Perhaps I may attempt to answer the noble Baroness, Lady Denington, because she speaks with such knowledge and such passion on this subject. I could remind her that Stevenage Corporation was one of the very first new towns set up immediately after the Second World War. Of course, it was founded upon initial loans of Government money, of taxpayers' money. I think that the noble Baroness will also recognise that in terms of economic circumstances we are in a vastly different situation today. Values have changed and the circumstances of doing so have changed very considerably. It is because Stevenage Corporation was raised upon public money that there is, of course, a question of public accountability, and I am sure that the noble Baroness would be the first to recognise that point. I

1159
should like to stress to the noble Lord, Lord Foot, that I have given answers which I consider to be satisfactory answers.
Several noble Lords: No!
Lord SANDYS: The noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, has not been satisfied at this stage. But we believe that the policy that the Government are pursuing in regard to new towns is most emphatically demanded by the circumstances in which we live.
Baroness STEDMAN: I think that that is one of the most unsatisfactory answers with which we have ever been presented. The noble Lord says that this is not an attack on new towns. You could have fooled me, because it goes right to the heart of the new town philosophy. He says that the powers of the Secretary of State are permissive and that he is not saying that he will take them. But the Secretary of State has already tried to take them illegally, and there is no guarantee that he will not go on trying to take them and putting this tremendous burden on the new towns.
The noble Lord says that it is a question of presentation. I do not think that even the best public relations officer in the world could dress this up to mean other
than what the clause says it means, that the Secretary of State is trying to dun the new towns for any assets they have, and leave them to get on with the job as best they can or as worse they can. He has shown a complete lack of understanding of the problems of new towns or the problems that are raised by this clause in the Bill. He has been most unsatisfactory in the replies to the legal questions that he was asked by my noble friend Lord Mishcon.
He says that they have taken into account the economic conditions in Scotland and that, therefore, Scotland has not been asked to provide so much as England. Does he not realise that the unemployment rate in England is also rising and that we have the same sort of economic conditions with which to comply? I think that the whole situation is completely unsatisfactory. We have failed to get the legal answers for which my noble friend asked. My doubts have not been lulled and I do not think that the doubts of noble Lords on all sides of the Committee have been lulled. I must ask the Committee to divide.
4.38 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 229) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 98; Not-Contents, 95.

CONTENTS

Airedale, L.

Evans of Hungershall, L.

Lewelyn-Davies of Hastoe, B. [Teller,]

Amherst, E.

Fisher of Rednal, B.

Amulree, L.

Foot, L.

Loudoun, C.

Ardwick, L.

Gainsborough, E.

Lovell-Davis, L.

Avebury, L.

Gaitskell, B.

McCarthy, L.

Aylestone, L.

Gordon-Walker, L.

McCluskey, L.

Bacon, B.

Gore-Booth, L.

Maelor, L.

Balogh, L.

Greenway, L.

Meston, L.

Banks, L.

Greenwood of Rossendale, L.

Milford, L.

Beswick, L.

Hale, L.

Milverton, L.

Birk, B.

Hampton, L.

Minto, E.

Blyton, L.

Hankey, L.

Mishcon, L.

Boston of Faversham, L.

Hanworth, V.

Noel-Baker, L.

Brockway, L.

Hatch of Lusby, L.

Northfield, L.

Brooks of Tremorfa, L.

Henderson, L.

Paget of Northampton, L.

Chitnis, L.

Hill of Luton, L.

Pargiter, L.

Cledwyn of Penrhos, L.

Houghton of Sowerby, L.

Peart, L.

Collison, L.

Hunt, L.

Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L. [Teller.]

Cooper of Stockton Heath, L.

Ilchester, E.

Cudlipp, L.

Jacques, L.

Ritchie-Calder, L.

Darling of Hillsborough, L.

Janner, L.

Roberthall, L.

David, B.

Jeger, B.

Rochester, L.

Davies of Leek, L.

Kaldor, L.

Ross of Marnock, L.

Delacourt-Smith of Alteryn, B.

Kilbracken, L.

Rugby, L.

Denington, B.

Kilmarnock, L.

Sainsbury, L.

Donaldson of Kingsbridge, L.

Kinloss, Ly.

Seear, B.

Evans of Claughton, L.

Leatherland, L.

Segal, L.

Simon, V.

Strabolgi, L.

Wallace of Coslany, L.

Somers, L.

Strauss, L.

Wedderburn of Charlton, L.

Stamp, L.

Taylor of Blackburn, L.

Whaddon, L.

Stedman, B.

Taylor of Gryfe, L.

Wilson of Radcliffe, L.

Stewart of Alvechurch, B.

Taylor of Mansfield, L.

Winstanley, L.

Stewart of Fulham, L.

Underhill, L.

Wynne-Jones, L.

Stone, L.

NOT-CONTENT

Alexander of Tunis, E.

Ferrers, E.

Monk Bretton, L.

Alport, L.

Fortescue, E.

Morris, L.

Ampthill, L.

Fraser of Kilmorack, L.

Murton of Lindisfarne, L.

Auckland, L.

Freyberg, L.

Netherthorpe, L.

Avon, E.

Gage, V.

Newall, L.

Balerno, L.

Gainford, L.

Northchurch, B.

Bellwin, L.

Gibson-Watt, L.

Nugent of Guildford, L.

Belstead, L.

Gisborough, L.

Onslow, E.

Berkeley, B.

Glenarthur, L.

Orkney, E.

Bessborough, E.

Gormanston, V.

Pender, L.

Bolton, L.

Gowrie, E.

Reigate, L.

Caccia, L.

Gridley, L.

Rochdale, V.

Caithness, E.

Halsbury, E.

Sackville, L.

Campbell of Croy, L.

Harvington, L.

St. Davids, V.

Cathcart, E.

Hatherton, L.

Sandford, L.

Clancarty, E.

Henley, L.

Sandys, L. [Teller.]

Clwyd, L.

Jeffreys, L.

Spens, L.

Cockfield, L.

Kemsley, V.

Strathclyde, L.

Colville of Culross, V.

Kinnaird, L.

Strathcona and Mount Royal, L.

Cork and Orrery, E.

Lauderdale, E.

Swansea, L.

Croft, L.

Linlithgow, M.

Swinfen, L.

de Clifford, L.

Liverpool, E.

Teviot, L.

De Freyne, L.

Long, V.

Tranmire, L.

Denham, L. [Teller.]

Lothian, M.

Trefgarne, L.

Digby, L.

Lucas of Chilworth, L.

Trumpington, B.

Drumalbyn, L.

Luke, L.

Vaizey, L.

Ebbisham, L.

McAlpine of Moffat, L.

Vernon, L.

Eccles, V.

Mackay of Clashfern, L.

Vickers, B.

Ellenborough, L.

Macleod of Borve, B.

Vivian, L.

Elliot of Harwood, B.

Malmesbury, E.

Wakefield of Kendal, L.

Exeter, M.

Mancroft, L.

Willoughby de Broke, L.

Falkland, V.

Marley, L.

Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.
4.47 p.m.
Baroness STEDMAN Baroness STEDMAN moved Amendment No. 230:
Page 97, line 20, leave out subsection (3).
The noble Barones said: I spoke to this when I was speaking to Amendment No. 229. I beg to move.
On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 230) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 95; Not-Contents, 93.

CONTENTS

Airedale, L.

Chitnis, L.

Glenamara, L.

Amherst, E.

Cledwyn of Penrhos, L.

Gordon-Walker, L.

Amulree, L.

Collison, L.

Gore-Booth, L.

Ardwick, L.

Cooper of Stockton Heath, L.

Greenway, L.

Avebury, L.

Darling of Hillsborough, L.

Greenwood of Rossendale, L.

Aylestone, L.

David, B.

Hale, L.

Bacon, B.

Davies of Leek, L.

Hampton, L.

Balogh, L.

Delacourt-Smith of Alteryn, B.

Hanworth, V.

Banks, L.

Denington, B.

Hatch of Lusby, L.

Beswick, L.

Donaldson of Kingsbridge, L.

Henderson, L.

Birk, B. [Teller.]

Evans of Claughton, L.

Houghton of Sowerby, L.

Blyton, L.

Fisher of Rednal, B.

Hunt, L.

Boston of Faversham, L.

Foot, L.

Ilchester, E.

Brockway, L.

Gainsborough, E.

Jacques, L.

Brooks of Tremorfa, L.

Gaitskell, B.

Janner, L.

Jeger, B.

Minto, E.

Stedman, B.

Kaldor, L.

Mishcon, L.

Stewart of Alvechurch, B.

Kilbracken, L.

Noel-Baker, L.

Stewart of Fulham, L.

Kilmarnock, L.

Paget of Northampton, L.

Stone, L.

Kinloss, Ly.

Pargiter, L.

Strabolgi, L.

Leatherland, L.

Peart, L.

Strauss, L.

Llewelyn-Davies of Hastoe, B. [Teller.]

Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.

Taylor of Blackburn, L.

Ritchie-Calder, L.

Taylor of Gryfe, L.

Longford, E.

Rochester, L.

Taylor of Mansfield, L.

Loudoun, C.

Ross of Marnock, L.

Underhill, L.

Lovell-Davis, L.

Rugby, L.

Wallace of Coslany, L.

McCarthy, L.

Sainsbury, L.

Walston, L.

McCluskey, L.

Seear, B.

Wedderburn of Charlton, L.

McGregor of Durris, L.

Segal, L.

Wilson of Radcliffe, L.

Maelor, L.

Simon, V.

Winstanley, L.

Milford, L.

Somers, L.

Wynne-Jones, L.

Milverton, L.

Stamp, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Alexander of Tunis, E.

Fraser of Kilmorack, L.

Morris, L.

Alport, L.

Freyberg, L.

Murton of Lindisfarne, L.

Ampthill, L.

Gage, V.

Newall, L.

Avon, E.

Gainford, L.

Northchurch, B.

Balerno, L.

Gibson-Watt, L.

Nugent of Guildford, L.

Bellwin, L.

Glenarthur, L.

Onslow, E.

Belstead, L.

Gormanston, V.

Orkney, E.

Berkeley, B.

Gowrie, E.

Orr-Ewing, L.

Bessborough, E.

Gridley, L.

Reigate, L.

Bolton, L.

Halsbury, E.

Rochdale, V.

Caccia, L.

Hankey, L.

Sackville, L.

Caithness, E.

Harvington, L.

St. Davids, V.

Campbell of Croy, L.

Hatherton, L.

Sandford, L.

Cathcart, E.

Henley, L.

Sandys, L. [Teller.]

Cockfield, L.

Jeffreys, L.

Selkirk, E.

Colville of Culross, V.

Kemsley, V.

Spens, L.

Cork and Orrery, E.

Kinnaird, L.

Strathclyde, L.

Croft, L.

Lauderdale, E.

Strathcona and Mount Royal, L.

de Clifford, L.

Linlithgow, M.

Swansea, L.

De Freyne, L.

Liverpool, E.

Swinfen, L.

Denham, L. [Teller.]

Long, V.

Teviot, L.

Digby, L.

Lothian, M.

Tranmire, L.

Drumalbyn, L.

Lucas of Chilworth, L.

Trefgarne, L.

Ebbisham, L.

Luke, L.

Trumpington, B.

Eccles, V.

McAlpine of Moffat, L.

Vaizey, L.

Ellenborough, L.

Mackay of Clashfern, L.

Vaux of Harrowden, L.

Elliot of Harwood, B.

Macleod of Borve, B.

Vernon, L.

Evans of Hungershall, L.

Malmesbury, E.

Vickers, B.

Falkland, V.

Mancroft, L.

Vivian, L.

Ferrers, E.

Marley, L.

Wakefield of Kendal, L.

Fortescue, E.

Monk Bretton, L.

Willoughby de Broke, L.

Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.
4.57 p.m.
Lord MACKAY of CLASHFERN Lord MACKAY of CLASHFERN had given notice of his intention to move Amendment No. 231:
Page 98, line 1, at end insert—
("( ) in subsection (3) the words "simple contract" shall be omitted.").
The noble and learned Lord said: In view of the decision just taken, this amendment is not moved.
On Question, Whether Clause 114, as amended, shall stand part of the Bill?
Baroness STEDMAN: May I ask the Minister whether, in the interval in voting, he has received replies for my noble friend Lord Mishcon? Has he been briefed and is he now in a position to give satisfactory replies?
Lord SANDYS: I can only tell the noble Baroness that I have not so been briefed and that I hope to receive the information at a later stage. I do not think I can add to that for the time being.
Baroness STEDMAN: In that case, I must advise my noble friends to vote against the clause standing part of the Bill.
4.58 p.m.
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 100; Not-Contents, 93.

CONTENTS

Alexander of Tunis, E.

Gage, V.

Netherthorpe, L.

Alport, L.

Gainford, L.

Newall, L.

Ampthill, L.

Gibson-Watt, L.

Northchurch, B.

Auckland, L.

Gisborough, L.

Nugent of Guildford, L.

Avon, E.

Glenarthur, L.

Onslow, E.

Balerno, L.

Gormanston, V.

Orkney, E.

Bellwin, L.

Gowrie, E.

Orr-Ewing, L.

Belstead, L.

Gridley, L.

Reigate, L.

Berkeley, B.

Hankey, L.

Rochdale, V.

Bolton, L.

Harvington, L.

Sackville, L.

Caccia, L.

Hatherton, L.

St. Davids, V.

Caithness, E.

Henley, L.

Saint Oswald, L.

Campbell of Croy, L.

Jeffreys, L.

Sandford, L.

Cathcart, E.

Kemsley, V.

Sandys, L. [Teller.]

Cockfield, L.

Kinnaird, L.

Selkirk, E.

Colville of Culross, V.

Lauderdale, E.

Sempill, Ly.

Cork and Orrery, E.

Linlithgow, M.

Spens, L.

Croft, L.

Liverpool, E.

Stamp, L.

de Clifford, L.

Long, V.

Strathclyde, L.

De Freyne, L.

Lothian, M.

Strathcona and Mount Royal, L.

Denham, L. [Teller.]

Lucas of Chilworth, L.

Swansea, L.

Digby, L.

Luke, L.

Swinfen, L.

Drumalbyn, L.

McAlpine of Moffat, L.

Teviot, L.

Duncan-Sandys, L.

Mackay of Clashfern, L.

Tranmire, L.

Ebbisham, L.

Macleod of Borve, B.

Trefgarne, L.

Eccles, V.

Malmesbury, E.

Trumpington, B.

Ellenborough, L.

Mancroft, L.

Vaizey, L.

Elliot of Harwood, B.

Marley, L.

Vaux of Harrowden, L.

Evans of Hungershall, L.

Melville, V.

Vernon, L.

Falkland, V.

Milverton, L.

Vickers, B.

Ferrers, E.

Monk Bretton, L.

Vivian, L.

Fortescue, E.

Morris, L.

Wakefield of Kendal, L.

Fraser of Kilmorack, L.

Murton of Lindisfarne, L.

Willoughby de Broke, L.

Freyberg, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Airedale, L.

Hale, L.

Northfield, L.

Ardwick, L.

Hampton, L.

Paget of Northampton, L.

Avebury, L.

Hanworth, V.

Pargiter, L.

Aylestone, L.

Hatch of Lusby, L.

Peart, L.

Bacon, B.

Henderson, L.

Perth, E.

Balogh, L.

Hill of Luton, L.

Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.

Banks, L.

Houghton of Sowerby, L.

Ritchie-Calder, L.

Beswick, L.

Hunt, L.

Rochester, L.

Birk, B. [Teller.]

Ilchester, E.

Ross of Marnock, L.

Blyton, L.

Jacques, L.

Rugby, L.

Boston of Faversham, L.

Janner, L.

Sainsbury, L.

Brockway, L.

Jeger, B.

Seear, B.

Brooks of Tremorfa, L.

Kaldor, L.

Segal, L.

Chitnis, L.

Kilbracken, L.

Simon, V.

Cledwyn of Penrhos, L.

Kilmarnock, L.

Stedman, B.

Collison, L.

Kinloss, Ly.

Stewart of Alvechurch, B.

Cooper of Stockton Heath, L.

Leatherland, L.

Stewart of Fulham, L.

Darling of Hillsborough, L.

Llewelyn-Davies of Hastoe, B. [Teller.]

Stone, L.

David, B.

Strabolgi, L.

Davies of Leek, L.

Longford, E.

Strauss, L.

Delacourt-Smith of Alteryn, B.

Loudoun, C.

Taylor of Blackburn, L.

Denington, B.

Lovell-Davis, L.

Taylor of Gryfe, L.

Donaldson of Kingsbridge, L.

McCarthy, L.

Taylor of Mansfield, L.

Evans of Claughton, L.

McCluskey, L.

Underhill, L.

Fisher of Rednal, B.

McGregor of Durris, L.

Wallace of Coslany, L.

Foot, L.

Maelor, L.

Walston, L.

Gainsborough, E.

Meston, L.

Wedderburn, of Charlton, L.

Gaitskell, B.

Milford, L.

Whaddon, L.

Glenamara, L.

Minto, E.

Wilson of Radcliffe, L.

Gordon-Walker, L.

Mishcon, L.

Winstanley, L.

Greenway, L.

Noel-Baker, L.

Wynne-Jones, L.

Greenwood of Rossendale, L.

Resolved in the affirmative, and Clause 114, as amended, agreed to accordingly.
Clause 115 [Power to dispose of land]:
5.8 p.m.
The Earl of CAITHNESS The Earl of CAITHNESS had given Notice of his intention to move Amendment No. 232:
Page 98, line 15, leave out ("(5)") and insert ("(5A)").
The noble Earl said: It may be to the benefit of the Committee if, in referring to Amendment No. 232, I refer also to Amendment No. 240. A similar amendment was spoken to by my noble friend Lord Stanley of Alderley late last night, or early this morning. I understood that he withdrew the same, and so I do not propose to move these two amendments.
Baroness DAVID Baroness DAVID moved Amendment No. 233:
Page 98, line 18, after first ("the") insert ("prior").
The noble Baroness said: In speaking to this amendment I wish to speak also to Amendments Nos. 234, 235 and 236. This clause, having dealt with giving the Secretary of State the right to tell people that he wants money from the new towns, deals with making them pay that money. The amendments in this group seek to limit considerably the powers given to the Secretary of State. Subsection (4) of the clause would make it possible for the Secretary of State to give a general cover to new town development corporations and indeed to the commission to transfer the freehold or a leasehold at any time without permission being granted by him, because of the words "given generally or specially", and it is these words which particularly worry us.
The amendments would restore the situation to what it now is—that is, that neither a development corporation nor the commission can grant a lease of more than 99 years, nor a freehold, without the express permission of the Secretary of State, and that on each proposal. That is "specially", as the subsection says. It would be necessary for the development corporation to approach the Secretary of State for permission to grant a lease of more than 99 years or to grant a freehold. The department and previous Secretaries of State have operated this provision of the 1965 Act very strictly. It has been
1168
rare to give more than a 99-year lease, though longer leases are being asked for more frequently. One does not want to get into a position where development corporations are competing with each other in the length of lease offered, and one does not want to get into the situation where development corporations might be competing with local authorities in their area.
Local authorities have to ask permission of the Government to dispose of freeholds. If the Secretary of State were to say—and this subsection would allow them to do so—that new town development corporations could offer freeholds around to any property investor or pension fund which liked to come along and make a proposal, it might leave local authorities in the area, which might also be wanting to attract prospective employers to invest in their areas, at a disadvantage compared with new towns, and one does not want this competitive attitude to develop.
It is surely accepted that it is most unwise to dispose of freehold. The Department of the Environment has a general oversight of the offering and terms of leases, and the possible sales of freeholds in order that this competition between development corporations and local authorities should not exist and in order to protect the public interest, which is always in retaining the freehold except in the most exceptional circumstances. The purpose behind the proposals in the clause, as appeared from the Minister's remarks in another place, is to reduce the public sector borrowing requirement; it is not to do with public interest, nor with the wellbeing and employment prospects of people in the area; nor, indeed, with the benefit of the town and its prosperity.
The amendments do nothing to prevent the Government getting the mix that they profess to want of private and public landlords. We are not against sales for those who have successfully set up their own businesses, but we do not want speculators, who would not be the good landlords and estate managers that the development corporations have been and are, and we do not want those speculators who might squeeze out those who are now making a success of their small businesses. Is it the intention of the Secretary of State to use the clause to give a general power to new towns to sell their assets—freeholds,

1169
long leases and all? Mr. Fox, the Parliamentary Under-Secretary, said in another place:
"It is our intention to sell as many freeholds as possible".
I beg to move.
Lord SANDYS: In moving this amendment the noble Baroness, Lady David, spoke to Amendments Nos. 233, 234, 235 and 236, and I hope that the Committee will agree that I should follow her in that manner. I can see no point in this amendment, for the reason that if, as the provision states, a corporation cannot dispose of a freehold or long leasehold without my right honourable friend's consent, it is surely implicit that the consent must be given before the disposal is made. I imagine that my right honourable friend would not be best pleased should his consent be sought to a fait accompli!
The noble Baroness referred to her own opinion that it was most unwise to dispose of freeholds, but she may be aware that I referred to Section 18(1) of the New Towns Act 1965—a piece of legislation for which her Party was responsible—which gives power to dispose, but only—and I quote:
"for securing the development of the new town in accordance with proposals approved by the Minister … or for purposes connected with the development of the new town".
It is that restrictive power which is secured by Section 18(1).
In regard to Amendment No. 234, we cannot recommend that this amendment should be accepted. The provision affected by this amendment is a useful means whereby the Secretary of State can choose whether to grant a general consent to freehold or long leasehold disposals within certain categories of case, or to grant special consent to each individual disposal application. As part of our attempts to reduce the level of public ownership, we are anxious that corporations should dispose of freeholds whenever possible. This will also enable corporations to be wound up more easily at the appropriate time, since sale of the freehold will relieve them of responsibility for the asset.
To insist on a separate consent in every case would merely produce a proliferation of bureaucracy. The provision in question is so framed as to be consistent with the equivalent provision
1170
relating to consent to disposals by the Commission for the New Towns and by development corporations, the latter provision being amended accordingly by Schedule 22 to the Bill. I believe that this amendment is wholly unsatisfactory.
I pass now to Amendment No. 235. I cannot see that this amendment makes any material difference to the provision. If the noble Baroness is concerned to make absolutely sure that no freeholds will be disposed of without the Secretary of State's consent, I can assure her that the subsection as drafted provides for that quite adequately. I therefore call upon the noble Baroness to withdraw this amendment, too.
With regard to Amendment No. 236, I cannot see that this amendment makes any material difference to the provision. I believe that if, once again, the noble Baroness is anxious that no freeholds or long leaseholds will be disposed of without the Secretary of State's consent, I can assure her that, once again, the subsection provides for that most adequately.
Baroness DAVID: I have listened to what the noble Lord has said and, although I cannot say that I feel at all happy about this general consent—it just seems to me that the Secretary of State is saying, "I want some money, and I really do not mind how you get it; go ahead"—I think I will not press this to a Division. We have had earlier successes, and I will not press the luck. I therefore beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendments Nos. 234, 235, 236 and 237 not moved.]
5.18 p.m.
Lord MORRIS Lord MORRIS moved Amendment No. 238:
Page 98, line 21, leave out ("99") and insert ("125").
The noble Lord said: I move this amendment on behalf of my noble friend Lord Mottistone, and in so doing I think it might be helpful to the Committee if I spoke at the same time to the next amendment standing in my noble friend's name, Amendment No. 249, as the principles involved are precisely the same.
This amendment is of course entirely intended to be helpful to Her Majesty's Government, and the intention of the amendment is to align the terms of land tenure to those normally required by financial institutions supporting development. The reason why the financial institutions almost universally require a minimum of 125 years per lease is that originally they would consider only freehold development. Later they grudgingly accepted leaseholds. At that time a building could be expected to last 100 years.
Nowadays most developments require major renovation or rebuilding after about 60 years and the institutions require security to cover the two lives, so to speak. The Secretary of State is aware of the need for an amendment along the lines proposed in order to help his avowed intention of reducing unnecessary bureaucracy. I understand that in July 1979 he wrote to the general manager of the New Town Corporation stating that, although his permission is required before new town land can be leased for more than 99 years, consent would normally be given for leases up to 150 years. This being the case, I ask why we retain unnecessary controls. I beg to move.
Lord SANDYS: I hope that I shall be able to satisfy my noble friend Lord Morris with an explanation. Development corporations have had power, since the original New Towns Act 1946, to grant leases of up to 99 years without requiring ministerial consent. I think that is common ground between us. We would not wish to be restrictive in the granting of leases and at present the Secretary of State has given a general consent for leases of up to 150 years where development corporations and the commissions for the new towns exercise their existing powers of disposal. But the figure of 99 years is parallel with that in the New Towns Act 1965 and a change to 125 years would be confusing. We do not believe that the clause as it stands will in any way penalise or discourage firms intending to invest in the new towns, and I therefore call upon my noble friend to withdraw the amendment.
Lord MORRIS: I am sure that I speak for my noble friend Lord Mottistone in thanking my noble friend for his helpful
1172
and full reply. I will draw my noble friend's attention to the reply. At the same time I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Baroness DAVID Baroness DAVID moved Amendment No. 239:
Page 98, line 22, leave out subsection (5).
The noble Baroness said: In speaking to this amendment I should like to speak also to Amendments Nos. 241 and 242 and I think I can cover Amendments Nos. 250 and 251 at the same time. Not only under Clause 114 can the Secretary of State ask for a sum of money and order the development corporations to pay, but under subsection (5) of Clause 115 he can lay down exactly how the new towns shall do it. It leaves no discretion to them. It is rule from Marsham Street. It cannot be right for the Secretary of State to intervene in that way instructing responsible and distinguished bodies of men and women how to do their business. I, too, have been a member of the board of a development corporation so that I have met a good number of them and have great admiration for them. We would wish to delete subsection (5) and also subsection (6) which is consequent on subsection (5) being there.
The same thing applies to Amendments Nos. 250 and 251 in connection with subsections (4) and (5) in Clause 118. If subsections (5) and (6) are not deleted, we would wish to delete some of the words in Clause 118(5). This says:
"Before giving a direction under subsection (4) … the Secretary of State shall consult the corporation, unless he is satisfied that because of urgency consultation is impracticable".
Those last words are the words we want to delete. There must be and should be time for consultation. It would be most unwise to deal with such important matters and large transactions with such unseemly haste. It seems ridiculous that there should be no time for the Secretary of State to communicate with the development corporation. What possible situation can the Minister produce that would justify the inclusion of these words in the clause? I beg to move.
Lord SANDYS: I think the Committee will be grateful to the noble Baroness for grouping the amendments as she did.

1173
I shall follow in the same vein. I shall therefore speak to Amendments Nos. 239, 241, 242, 250 and 251. Once again we are fortunate in the Committee in listening to the noble Baroness, who is a very experienced member of a board. As I listened to her moving the amendment with such skill I felt that the amendment is unsatisfactory despite her words.
Considerable sums of public money have been invested in the new towns' assets which are now to be sold, and my right honourable friend has a duty to ensure that the best possible return is obtained on them. The power affected by the amendment will enable him to do so. He will, for example, be able to regulate the release of assets for sale if he considers that there is a danger of too many simultaneous disposals depressing the assets' market value. This particular point was raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Stedman, and I think, particularly, by the noble Baroness, Lady Denington. I think it is a very real issue. The point that I am making is that the regulation of the release of assets for sale is a matter of judgment.
The power is also necessary to ensure that disposals are carried out in accordance with Government policy. For example, the Government have asked new towns authorities to give special consideration to sitting tenants. It might be necessary to reinforce such a request with a direction. I therefore ask the noble Baroness to withdraw that amendment.
At the same time I am going to speak to Amendment No. 241. Here the development corporations would undoubtedly be alarmed that there was no statutory requirement for them to be consulted. They have detailed knowledge of their own assets and of local conditions which they certainly would wish my right honourable friend to draw upon in making directions to them and which he would wish to take into account. I believe that this is a somewhat misguided amendment and I think I must ask the noble Baroness to withdraw it.
Baroness DAVID: May I intervene at this point? When dealing with that particular amendment I asked in what circumstances the Minister could justify the words:
"unless he is satisfied that because of urgency consultation is impracticable".
1174
That was the point of the amendment.
Lord SANDYS: I think this is a matter for speculation. One can envisage a number of different circumstances which might make it extremely difficult, possibly when there has been quite substantial consultation previously and then there is an urgent need perhaps to implement a decision.
Viscount SIMON: Surely this is very difficult. The disposal cannot be made without the consent of the Secretary of State. When he gives the consent that is the opportunity to find time to discuss the matter with the corporation. I do not see how it can possibly be that he cannot have time to consult.
Lord SANDYS: If I have given a reply which did not sufficiently recommend itself to the Committee, I apologise. There can be circumstances in which discussions may take place in general terms, or perhaps on a rather broad basis, for the disposal of certain assets, anticipating either a market or a set of circumstances. It may well be that it is possible that because of the conditions of the market it may not be possible to have a further series of discussions to implement the decision.
Baroness DENINGTON: Does that really apply? Are we not talking about the disposal of land? I would have thought the noble Lord's remarks scarcely applied to the disposal of land. Land involves long-term discussions, the planning of the town and all the rest of it. I am not saying that there are not areas of land that can be disposed of. I still find this phrase about urgency not applicable.
Lord SANDYS: The noble Baroness need not worry overmuch because a provision whereby the Secretary of State need not consult a corporation because of urgency is not one which she is likely to need to use often. However, it would be useful if, for example, the property market was falling rapidly and the Secretary of State therefore wished temporarily to restrict the release of further assets for sale. This is a decision which must be made.
Baroness DENINGTON: I am so glad that the Secretary of State is willing to consult at all.
Baroness DAVID: Would the Minister be willing to take this amendment back? There seems to be a certain amount of anxiety on this point.
Lord SANDYS: I would be misleading the Committee if I gave that assurance. We feel very clear in our minds that there would be circumstances in which it would be extraordinarily valuable to have this reserve power. I gave the assurance in my last reply that it would be a reserve power for particular occasions. I feel I can go no further than that.
Baroness DAVID: I cannot say that I am altogether satisfied. One thing satisfied me in the noble Lord's reply: the release of assets might be regulated. That is something on the credit side. I am still surprised that the Secretary of State cannot trust these responsible boards and leave the judgment of the moment of sale to them. I will withdraw the amendment for the time being, but I reserve the right to come back on Report.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendment Nos. 240 to 242 not moved.]
Clause 115 agreed to.
Clause 116 [Orders reducing designated areas]:
5.35 p.m.
Baroness STEDMAN Baroness STEDMAN moved Amendment No. 243:
Page 99, line 12, leave out ("expedient") and insert ("to the advantage of the town").
The noble Baroness said: We come again to this word "expedient". Earlier today my noble friend Lord Underhill was not happy with it and the noble Lord, Lord Morris, did not think it was the word we ought to have in the statute. I am getting more and more concerned, as we proceed, with the small print of this Bill and with what possible permutations and combinations one can make of any group of words. It would be very much better if we replaced "expedient" with the words "to the advantage of the town", which makes what is wanted
1176
perfectly plain. If the Secretary of State is going to reduce the designated area—like my noble friend Lady Denington I am thankful there is going to be consultation: that seems to be a marked improvement—subsection (1) allows for the consultations. There are problems when an area is reduced. My own new town has been unfortunate enough to get its area reduced before this Bill came in without any consultations. Those are now going on urgently between the local authorities and the development corporation to see where they can pick up the pieces and start again.
All sorts of problems are raised when the designated area is reduced in size. A new town development corporation may have spent money on an infrastructure and be building all their amenities and facilities for a certain area of population and a certain number of population. We have done this in Peterborough. We are building a new regional shopping centre, attracting some very good and large firms, on the basis of what our acreage was going to be and what our population was going to be. Some of us now feel that we are breaking faith with them because the Minister has decided to reduce the acreage and is thinking of reducing the population further.
So there are problems in the planned services of new towns. Whether the decision is to the advantage of the town or not is not one of the considerations which the Secretary of State has to decide upon. We would be happier if this were hedged around the consultations with the safeguard that it shall be to the advantage of the town and not a question of what the Minister thinks is expedient. I beg to move.
Lord SANDYS: Clause 116 enables the Secretary of State to make an order reducing the designated area of a new town, as the noble Baroness has reminded the Committee. Such orders will be necessary because substantial areas of the third generation new towns are unlikely to be required for development following the decision in 1977 to reduce the town's target population. The noble Baroness reminded the Committee about this in the case of Peterborough. It is desirable that the superfluous land should be de-

1177
designated to prevent blight and remove the development corporation's statutory duty to lay out and develop the land.
Such action is therefore expedient to implement the national policy of reducing the target populations of the towns. But the advantage of the individual new towns is not at issue. We are dealing with a situation on which the Government have a very clear view. There are plenty of precedents for the use of the word "expedient" and I hope that the noble Baroness may feel able to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness STEDMAN: I am not very happy. I do not think that "expedient" means the same thing as "to the advantage of the town". There are problems; problems have been made now for us in Peterborough where we accommodate the numbers that are still to come into it in the two existing townships. We shall have no room for the natural expansion of population that will follow from the increase in the normal population of the new town, for which we had reserved part of the township. I will ask my noble friends to come into the lobby with me because the words "to the advantage of the town" are much better than just "expedient".
Lord SANDYS: Before the noble Baroness takes that course of action, perhaps I could reply to her in greater detail. I hope that your Lordships will bear with me if I add a few remarks about the background to the clause and the amendment. First, I should like to take your Lordships back to the designation of the sites of the new towns. The Minister is given power in Section 1 of the New Towns Act 1965 to designate an area as the site of a new town if this is "expedient in the national interest". If we now turn to the powers of de-designation of some of this land, we find the same test of "expediency" being applied. This is appropriate because both designation and de-designation of new town land is primarily a matter of national interest.
Clauses 116 to 118 are included in the Bill to deal with the situation stemming from decisions taken in 1977 by the previous Government. Prompted by changing national circumstances, they decided to reduce the target populations of the third generations of new towns which
1178
still have considerable development to carry out. However, many development corporations had bought land on the basis of the original targets, and this is now surplus to their needs. We now wish to de-designate this land to prevent blight and to remove the development corporation's statutory duty to lay out and develop the land as I described.
What is at issue here is the question of how big the new towns should be. Just as with the question of designation, it is primarily a matter of national and regional policy. The clause makes provision, by the consultation of local authorities, for local interests to be taken into account; and this is the point of the noble Baroness's amendment. However, it would not be sensible to make the decision turn on the local interests when the policy at stake is a national one I do hope that with those further remarks the noble Baroness may feel able to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness STEDMAN: No, I do not think I can. I think we should still have the prime concern of the new town area which is being made smaller and the problems that will follow, and this de-designation of part of the area should not be allowed unless we are absolutely satisfied that it is to the advantage of the town. While "expedient" may have been used in other Acts, I do not think that necessarily makes it right, and I do not think it necessarily means that we should follow it in this one. I think the words, "to the advantage of the town", would be infinitely more preferable, and I must ask my noble friends to follow me into the Lobby.
Viscount SIMON: Before we divide, I should like to say from these Benches that I have listened carefully to this discussion, and I am bound to say that I would advise my noble friends to follow the Government's line on this occasion. I consider that the argument put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Sandys, is the stronger of the two arguments.
5.44 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 243) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 69; Not-Contents, 127.

CONTENTS

Aylestone, L.

Glenamara, L.

Pargiter, L.

Bacon, B.

Gordon-Walker, L.

Peart, L.

Balogh, L.

Greenwood of Rossendale, L.

Pitt of Hampstead, L.

Bernstein, L.

Gregson, L.

Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L. [Teller.]

Beswick, L.

Hale, L.

Birk, B.

Hatch of Lusby, L.

Ritchie-Calder, L.

Blyton, L.

Henderson, L.

Ross of Marnock, L.

Boston of Faversham, L.

Houghton of Sowerby, L.

Sainsbury, L.

Brockway, L.

Jacques, L.

Segal, L.

Brooks of Tremorfa, L.

Janner, L.

Stedman, B.

Bruce of Donington, L.

Jeger, B.

Stone, L.

Chitnis, L.

Kaldor, L.

Strabolgi, L.

Cledwyn of Penrhos, L.

Leatherland, L.

Taylor of Blackburn, L.

Collison, L.

Llewelyn-Davies of Hastoe, B.

Taylor of Gryfe, L.

Cooper of Stockton Heath, L.

Lockwood, B.

Taylor of Mansfield, L.

Crowther-Hunt, L.

Lovell-Davis, L.

Underhill, L.

Darling of Hillsborough, L.

McCarthy, L.

Wallace of Coslany, L. [Teller.]

David, B.

McCluskey, L.

Walston, L.

Davies of Leek, L.

McGregor of Durris, L.

Wedderburn of Charlton, L.

Denington, B.

Maelor, L.

Whaddon, L.

Donaldson of Kingsbridge, L.

Melchett, L.

Wilson of Radcliffe, L.

Elwyn-Jones, L.

Mishcon, L.

Wynne-Jones, L.

Fisher of Rednal, B.

Noel-Baker, L.

Young of Dartington, L.

Gaitskell, B.

NOT-CONTENTS

Airedale, L.

Glenarthur, L.

Netherthorpe, L.

Ampthill, L.

Gormanston, V.

Northchurch, B.

Avon, E.

Gowrie, E.

Nugent of Guildford, L.

Balerno, L.

Greenway, L.

Onslow, E.

Banks, L.

Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, L. (L. Chancellor.)

Orkney, E.

Bellwin, L.

Orr-Ewing, L.

Belstead, L.

Halsbury, E.

Rawlinson of Ewell, L.

Berkeley, B.

Hampton, L.

Reigate, L.

Boardman, L.

Hanworth, V.

Renton, L.

Bolton, L.

Harvington, L.

Rochdale, V.

Boyd-Carpenter, L.

Hatherton, L.

Rochester, L.

Brabazon of Tara, L.

Henley, L.

Rodney, L.

Caithness, E.

Hill of Luton, L.

Sackville, L.

Campbell of Croy, L.

Holderness, L.

St. Aldwyn, E.

Cathcart, E.

Inglewood, L.

St. Davids, V.

Cockfleld, L.

Ironside, L.

Sandford, L.

Colville of Culross, V.

Jeffreys, L.

Sandys, L. [Teller.]

Cork and Orrery, E.

Kemsley, V.

Seear, B.

Cottesloe, L.

Kilmarnock, L.

Selkirk, E.

Croft, L.

Kinloss, Ly.

Selsdon, L.

Cullen of Ashbourne, L.

Kinnaird, L.

Sempill, Ly.

de Clifford, L.

Lauderdale, E.

Simon, V.

De Freyne, L.

Linlithgow, M.

Spens, L.

De La Warr, E.

Liverpool, E.

Stamp, L.

Denham, L. [Teller.]

Long, V.

Strathclyde, L.

Digby, L.

Loudoun, C.

Strathcona and Mount Royal, L.

Drumalbyn, L.

Lucas of Chilworth, L.

Strathmore and Kinghorne, E.

Ebbisham, L.

Luke, L.

Swansea, L.

Eccles, V.

Lyell, L.

Swinfen, L.

Ellenborough, L.

McAlpine of Moffat, L.

Teviot, L.

Elliot of Harwood, B.

Mackay of Clashfern, L.

Tranmire, L.

Evans of Claughton, L.

Macleod of Borve, B.

Trefgarne, L.

Falkland, V.

Malmesbury, E.

Trumpington, B.

Ferrers, E.

Mancroft, L.

Vaizey, L.

Foot, L.

Margadale, L.

Vaux of Harrowden, L.

Fortescue, E.

Marley, L.

Vickers, B.

Fraser of Kilmorack, L.

Marshall of Leeds, L.

Vivian, L.

Freyberg, L.

Melville, V.

Wakefield of Kendal, L.

Gage, V.

Mills, V.

Willoughby de Broke, L.

Gainsborough, E.

Monk Bretton, L.

Winstanley, L.

Gibson-Watt, L.

Morris, L.

Worcester, Bp.

Gisborough, L.

Mowbray and Stourton, L.

Young, B.

Gladwyn, L.

Murton of Lindisfarne, L.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.
Clause 116 agreed to.
Clause 117 [Effect or order: general]:
5.52 p.m.
Lord RENTON Lord RENTON moved Amendments Nos. 244 and 245:
Page 99, line 34, leave out ("transitionals") and insert ("transitional provisions")
Page 99, line 37, leave out ("transitionals") and insert ("transitional provisions").
The noble Lord said: I suggest that with amendment No. 244 be taken No. 245, which is like unto it. The word "transitionals" does not, strictly speaking, exist at all in our language. "Transitional" is an adjective and not a noun. As an adjective, it is not to be found in the plural, and I suggest that we really cannot have the secret priesthood of parliamentary counsel borrowing a new vocabulary from Fleet Street, however tempting it may be to save one word. The obvious thing to do here, in both places in which the word "transitionals" is used, is to cut it out and replace it by the more suitable phrase, which is more in accordance with our statute book, "transitional provisions". I beg to move.
Lord SANDYS: I am sure that it will be the wish of the Committee to take these two amendments together, and I think that we should congratulate my noble and eagle-eyed friend on spotting this flaw in the drafting of the Bill. Indeed, it is the wish of the Government for every Bill to leave your Lordships' House in perfect condition and I accept both amendments with alacrity.
Lord RENTON: I am much obliged to my noble friend.
On Question, amendments agreed to.
Clause 117, as amended, agreed to.
[Amendments Nos. 246 to 251 not moved.]
Clause 118 agreed to.
Clause 119 agreed to.
Clause 120 [Power to end special licensing provisions]:
Lord RENTON Lord RENTON moved Amendment No. 252:
Page 101, line 39, leave out subsection (7).
The noble Lord said: If your Lordships will turn over the page to page 102, line 9, you will see that it has exactly the same effect as subsection (7) at the bottom of page 101. We do not need both of these provisions, and the obviously right thing to do seems to be to leave intact the one on page 102 and leave out subsection (7) on page 101. Accordingly, I beg to move.
Lord SANDYS: Once again, the Government are indeed grateful to my noble friend who has spotted a fault in the drafting. Superfluous words in the drafting must be removed and, once more, I accept this amendment with alacrity.
Lord RENTON: I am much obliged.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 120, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 121 [Interpretation, amendments and extent]:
5.58 p.m.
Lord MACKAY of CLASHFERN Lord MACKAY of CLASHFERN moved Amendment No. 253:
Page 102, line 15, leave out ("118") and insert ("120").
The noble and learned Lord said: This is a technical amendment to Clause 121, in consequence of the addition to Part XV in another place of two clauses applying to England and Wales only. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 121, as amended, agreed to.
Schedule 22 agreed to.
Clause 122 [Urban development areas]:
Lord BELLWIN Lord BELLWIN moved Amendment No. 253A:
Page 102, line 20, at beginning insert ("Subject to subsection (1A) below,").
The noble Lord said: With this amendment, I shall also speak to No. 256A. These amendments do two things. First, they insert into the clause a new subsection (1A), to which I referred earlier. The effect of the new subsection will be to restrict in England the areas which may be

1183
designated to the metropolitan districts and to the boroughs in the central parts of London. Secondly, the amendments insert a new subsection (1B). This is needed to make it clear that an urban development area may contain separate parcels of land. I beg to move.
Lord PONSONBY of SHULBREDE: The amendment which has been tabled by the noble Lord and which we are taking together with Amendment No. 256A limits, as he has said, the areas in which urban development corporations can be established. This amendment was tabled on Friday, 10th October—that is, only a very few days ago. One wonders why this specific amendment was tabled. Most of the authorities caught within the terms of this amendment are Labour controlled. One wonders whether this amendment has been tabled in these terms because of the political complexion of the vast majority of the authorities concerned. Conversely, one notices that all the authorities in Greater London, except one, which are excluded from this amendment are Tory controlled.
One is driven to the conclusion that the amendment has been drafted and tabled in these terms in order to allay the fears of Tory controlled authorities that the exercise of the powers within this clause could result in a future Labour Government deciding, without let or hindrance, that these powers should be exercised in those metropolitan areas.
What the legislation in its new terms means is that one cannot set up an urban development corporation in Cardiff, Bristol, Southampton, Nottingham, Derby or Leicester. All those are large, in some ways decaying metropolitan areas in which some of the problems which the Government have in mind arise. But all these areas are excluded from the legislation, and all the counties and the county authorities are excluded.
One imagines that the legislation was drafted in this way because it was the only legal way which the Government could find to allay the fears of the Tory authorities. As I have said, if it had not been changed as the Government have changed it, it could well be that a future Labour Government would decide, if Tory authorities were behaving in a
1184
truculent way, that these powers should be exercised. One can think of the reaction of local authorities. The noble Lord, Lord Sandys, might react very violently if a UDC was created in Droitwich where that authority would have the power to acquire, hold, manage, reclaim and dispose of land and other property; would have the power to carry out building and other operations; would have the power to ensure the provision of water, electricity, gas, sewerage and other services; and would have the power to carry on any business or undertaking for the purposes of the objective for which it was set up. These are very wide powers indeed.
I should like to know what consultations the Government have had with the AMA about this proposed new clause, for that is the local authority association which represents the metropolitan authorities and the district councils referred to in the amendment. I am wondering whether such consultations have been held. I find it very unsatisactory that an amendment of this sort should be tabled at such a late time in the proceedings. Clearly it is an amendment of a political character which does not deal even-handedly with one authority compared with another. For these reasons, I believe that the Committee should very strongly oppose this amendment to the clause.
Lord GREENWOOD of ROSSENDALE: When we are legislating with the intensity with which we are legislating this week in respect of the Bill, it is not easy to keep pace with the Marshalled List. Nevertheless, I reproach myself for not having been aware of this amendment until my noble friend Lord Ponsonby directed my attention to it this afternoon. I find it to be a most extraordinary proposition that England and Wales will be treated quite differently, that London will be treated differently from other metropolitan districts, and that parts of London will be treated differently from other parts of London.
If one reads very carefully subsection (1A)(b) of Amendment No. 256A, I am bound to say that it is quite staggering that the Government should have shown such ingenuity in drawing the boundaries of the urban development area so as to exclude all Conservative dominated authorities in the Greater London area.

1185
There are ugly words which one could use about a procedure of this kind. I will not use them in your Lordships' Committee. I hope, however, that the noble Lord will be able to assure us that there is a much better reason for proposing this than that which appears to anyone who reads if for the first time. I hope very much either that the noble Lord, Lord Bellwin, will be able to give us some assurance on that point or that he will say that he will take it away in order to discuss it with the associations. I understand that there has been no talk with the Association of Metropolitan Authorities. I do not know whether the other associations have been consulted but they, of course, are not quite so intimately affected as the metropolitan authorities. An amendment of this kind, which lays itself open to what may be misrepresentation, is certainly one that the Government would have been wiser to clear in the first place with the associations.
Viscount SIMON: When the noble Lord comes to reply, I wonder whether he could clear up one point. Subsection (1B) of Amendment No. 256A says:
"Separate parcels of land may be designated as one urban development area".
Am I right in thinking that the separate parcels must be contiguous, not just dotted about?
Lord SANDFORD: I think the Opposition are making tremendously heavy weather of this. The non-metropolitan district councils are glad to see the amendment because it makes clear that these powers are not designed for cities like Bristol, Leicester and Nottingham. This is only making clear in the Bill what has been obvious all along: that the places where this kind of urban development corporation is required are the centres of our great cities which are suffering from serious decay. They are identified in the Notes on Clauses. Everybody knows them to be Liverpool and London Docks.
There have been complaints throughout the passage of the Bill that the Secretary of State is being given powers which are unnecessarily wide. To give him power to make these designations anywhere at all would be absurdly wide. All he is doing is to limit the areas to where these powers will be required. As we know, they will be exercised only in two metropolitan
1186
areas, in two of the worst run-down bits of inner city. That is all there is to it.
Lord PONSONBY of SHULBREDE: Before the noble Lord sits down, may I ask him whether he is saying that Bristol, Southampton and Nottingham are not great cities?
Lord SANDFORD: No, of course not. They are great cities and they have got very considerable problems. Bristol had a notable and tragic one only the other day. But the problems there are not as intensive and extensive as they are in the London docks or the Liverpool docks, and that is why these extra powers are required.
Lord ELWYN-JONES: Before the noble Lord sits down, there is an aspect of this amendment which I confess causes me a good deal of concern; that is the question of hybridity. When the matter first arose in the Bill which was brought to the House from another place the provision of Clause 122 of the then Bill was the same as the provision in the present Bill. But now that is to be substantially amended by the provisions of Amendment No. 256A. Originally the provision was:
"If the Secretary of State is of opinion that it is expedient in the national interest to do so, he may by order made by statutory instrument designate any area of land as an urban development area".
That gave rise to a great deal of concern up and down the country that, "We may be the next upon whom the blow may fall". And so the Government then embarked upon a process of careful selection. That involved identification of particular areas which are to be made the subject of the very substantial powers given by the Secretary of State under the Bill in regard to the appointment of this intriguing new public body, which, however, is answerable only to him and which is outwith the normal arrangement for such body.
The amendment identifies the areas which are to be affected—either a metropolitan district or inner London borough, et cetera, under (1A)(b). I do not know whether the motivation for this selection was as stridently political as my noble friend has suggested, but we shall be interested to hear what the Minister has got to say about that. On the face of this

1187
it certainly seems suspicious. All I wish to say at the moment is that in my submission it does at any rate create a prima facie case of hybridity. Hybridity, as we learned from the ship repairing Bill, is not an easy matter, and we and others spent many hours upon it.
I have before me the statement of reasons for the certificate from the Examiners. It begins with the well-known attempted definition, if I may say so without discourtesy to Mr. Speaker Hylton-Foster, of what a hybrid Bill is. He said:
"I think that a hybrid Bill can be defined as a Public Bill which affects a particular private interest in a manner different from the private interest of other persons or bodies of the same category or class".
Then the report goes on to say:
"This definition, taken at its face value, indicates what might have been thought to be obvious—that the doctrine of hybridity is an expression of the will of each House of Parliament that an individual"—
I submit that a local authority or the individuals affected by the measure come into the broad designation. The report says:
"is an expression of the will of each House of Parliament that an individual singled out by a Public Bill for adverse treatment …".
All the local authorities with whom I have been discussing the matter regard what is proposed as adverse treatment because they think it would do nothing but harm to development within their municipality; and I say this on the strength of having represented a dockland constituency for 29 years and, not unnaturally, being the recipient of their views upon this matter. However, I am interrupting my own reading of the statement. It goes on to say:
"… an individual singled out by a Public Bill for adverse treatment should be allowed to plead his cause to a Select Committee on a petition against the Bill or against those provisions of the Bill that will affect him. The doctrine was designed to give the minority some defence against the legislature, and that in modern times means defence against the Crown. Unless it is that, it is nothing".
Later on in the report there is the use of the convenient phrase, "selective ill-treatment". Here we are in the presence of selective treatment; I remove the word "ill" as being perhaps not wholly agreed for this purpose, but it is selective treatment affecting the rights of the authorities
1188
concerned and the ratepayers and the residents in them. The category of authorities is defined as is proposed in the new amendment—metropolitan district or inner London boroughs of a specific kind. I submit that that process of selection and identification has now plunged the Government into the field of hybridity. They were very careful to avoid it until this fateful step has been taken of moving this amendment, but now they are in dire trouble, and I submit that it is, prima facie, at any rate, a clear case of selective ill-treatment of these identified areas. They do not cover the whole of the area of the land of England as the potential target for this beneficent or ill-advised procedure, as we on this side of the Committee would call it, and accordingly I submit that very anxious thought should now be given by the Government and the Committee as to the proposition which I am inviting the Committee to consider. I notice the noble Lord, Lord Renton, is anxious to intervene.
Lord RENTON: The noble and learned Lord—
Lord ELWYN-JONES: I hope the noble Lord is not going to make a speech.
Lord RENTON: I am asking the noble and learned Lord to clarify something in relation to what he has already said so that we may understand the rest of his speech the better. He has very properly pointed out that the hybridity rule applies where private interests are adversely affected. He seems to be suggesting that the interests mentioned in this new subsection are private interests. In fact, they are metropolitan districts or an inner London borough or an area of land which is partly in one and partly in the other. It seems to me that it is only at one remove or even two removes that a private interest could possibly be affected by this subsection. I am wondering whether the noble and learned Lord would be so good as to say exactly how he considers that a private interest would be affected at one remove. Certainly it cannot be directly affected.
Lord ELWYN-JONES: Perhaps the noble Lord has not had an opportunity of considering Clause 124(3), which sets out the powers of the authority, which are powers to:

1189
"acquire, hold, manage, reclaim and dispose of land and other property"—
other property belonging now to either individuals or public authorities. Then:
"carry out building and other operations; seek to ensure the provision of water … sewerage and other services"
presently provided by established authorities, some private, some statutory, some public. The clause continues:
"Carry on any business or undertaking for the purposes of the object"—
businesses which now may be currently carried out by private persons. So there are abundant circumstances in which private interests can be affected by the operation of the Bill. I beg the question for the moment as to whether, for the purposes of the Bill, at any rate, taking over the powers of a local authority may bring us within the terms of hybridity.
At any rate, whether I am right or wrong about that there is an abundance here of potential interference with private interests, and I think that is a matter for considerable concern. Those who happen to have property, businesses, et cetera in this area may well be directly affected by the operation of the Bill. I do not want to take the matter further at this stage, but I ask for a view early upon this matter, because it seems to me to be quite fundamental for the further considerations of the Bill—because, if I am right, a wholly different set of procedures would apply. In the town legislation the effect of a designation order would be the setting up of appropriate petition procedures and public hearings to enable those concerned to represent their interests and defend their rights. I hope that we may get some decision on this matter—if not immediately than at a very early stage.
Lord EVANS of CLAUGHTON: I would not think of following the noble and learned Lord, Lord Elwyn-Jones, too far down the road of hybridity: what solicitor would dare do that to a senior member of the profession? But I had understood that the broad wording of Clause 122 in the Bill, as originally drawn, was to avoid this danger. I read about this in the debates in another place and I had understood from articles in learned journals that this was the reason for the broad wording. It seems to me that the Government are in the difficult position of being between the devil and the deep blue
1190
sea; on the one side the dangers of hybridity and on the other side the dangers of causing apoplexy to shire counties. No doubt the noble Lord the Minister will have read with interest the speeches made in another place by his right honourable friend Mr. Geoffrey Rippon, who said in straightforward terms that the Secretary of State could set up an urban development corporation virtually anywhere at the drop of a hat, even in a rural area, provided that it had a village in the middle of it. Therefore I assume that the Minister's problem is, on the one hand, reassuring people who have that fear expressed by his right honourable friend and, on the other hand, trying to ensure that he does not transgress the rules of hybridity.
We are dealing actually with these amendments and my objection, as I think the Minister knows, or will have gathered from reading the Marshalled List, is to the whole concept of urban development corporations, but no doubt we shall be dealing with that particular thing shortly in what I hope will be a general debate, conducted perhaps in a less muddled way than some of the debates about principles which were conducted yesterday. Being against urban development corporations generally, I suppose in that sense I should welcome this amendment, in that it limits the operation of urban development corporations to metropolitan districts and the inner London boroughs. What I should like to know, before deciding what to recommend my noble friends to do, is the extent to which the Association of Metropolitan Authorities has been consulted, as the noble Lord, Lord Greenwood of Rossendale, asked, and indeed obviously an answer (if there is an answer) to the questions raised by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Elwyn-Jones, about hybridity. On the basis that in politics we often have to work on the principle that half a loaf is better than no bread, I should prefer to have a very limited area of operation of urban development corporations than to have the broad brush approach of the clause as it stands at present.
Nevertheless, I think it would be almost impertinent to proceed to pass this amendment if the Association of Metropolitan Authorities and interested parties in metropolitan areas have not had an opportunity of commenting or making

1191
any statement about it. I assume they have not because I have been speaking this afternoon on the telephone to the chief executive of one metropolitan authority who was not aware of this amendment. I think the Government have got themselves into deep water over this, and I am looking forward with some interest to what they have to say about the problems they have now created for themselves, and perhaps a reassurance that shortly we shall have an opportunity of debating the general principles of urban development corporations.
Lord BELLWIN: I am really very surprised that we should be having this debate as much upon the amendment as upon the general principles. Indeed, I thought that was what we should be mostly debating and that the amendment would be a lead into that. However, as a few very important points have been raised, I think that I should initially cover those at least. I say at once that for the reasons that the noble Lord, Lord Evans, has just touched upon, I am frankly amazed when I consider that at Second Reading, and after all I have read and heard discussed over all the period that the UDC's were ever suggested, the one thing that everyone has said is that the danger is that we shall put them everywhere. We in Government have gone to great pains to say to people, first, that that is not the intention. Indeed, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State, in another place, in, I think, his opening Second Reading speech on the Bill itself, went to considerable lengths to stress that for reasons which I hope are by now known—and if not I will gladly dilate upon them—it was in those two specific areas that the Government wanted to set up UDCs, and it was not at all the intention to go beyond that.
The fact that the legislation as first put out was so wide is something that we can discuss in a moment, but here we come along with an amendment which seeks to narrow it very much, and yet noble Lords accuse us of some political motivation. I can tell your Lordships that I am as much involved politically as anybody else, but I have not at any time heard that this aspect of it was made in that way. Noble Lords opposite may say, "That is what you say". Well, that is what I
1192
say, and I am not accustomed to saying it if I do not really mean it, and you can take that from me or not. That is up to your Lordships.
I am trying to answer all the points. I think that I should say to the noble Viscount, Lord Simon, who was concerned to know whether in fact the areas were contiguous, that if they were contiguous they would not be separate. The intention is that this will deal with parcels of land, such as in Merseyside on separate banks of the river. I hope that is useful for him to know. Basically, the intention here—and I will come to the hybridity point in a moment—is to avoid the hybridity point while at the same time trying to give more details. Perhaps I might point out, en passant on the political note, that the GLC, which is Tory controlled, is in fact within the possible London area. I think easily the most important point was the one of hybridity. I should like to say at once that we went to considerable pains to ensure that in fact this was not so. Both these amendments—Nos.253A and 256—were very carefully drafted and cleared with counsel, particularly to ensure that they covered general classes of authorities and not particular individual authorities. Although I certainly defer very much to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Elwyn-Jones—and who would not on matters of this kind?—I can only say to him that the advice given to me (I speak very respectfully and I must put it this way) is that that is certainly not the case. Indeed, I am glad to say that we were well aware of the pitfall, and that is what I am assured is so.
Rather than to go now into the generality of UDCs, which I suspect is not what we want to do at this moment, I will leave it at that, but repeat that here I come along, trying to do something which we feel will please most people—in fact I did not use all my speaking notes, so sure was I that this was to be received with plaudits all round—only to find myself assailed in this way. I hope that at least on the motivations, because that must be the most important thing, the Committee may feel it is not really so bad and perhaps might accept this amendment.
Lord ELWYN-JONES: I feel that the Government have impaled themselves on the famous horns of the famous

1193
dilemma in the avoidance of a generality of provision which would have worried all parts of the country, which the Government have apparently no intention whatever of affecting. They had to identify specific areas. They have done so. All I can suggest is that further advice might be taken. I might even take some advice myself, and we will return to this matter again, indubitably.
Lord SANDFORD: The orders designating the areas and establishing the corporations will of course be hybrid, and that is where the point comes in.
Lord MARSHALL of LEEDS: What the noble and learned Lord, Lord Elwyn-Jones, has argued depends to a large extent upon whether or not private interest will be adversely affected in the areas. No evidence has so far been adduced that private interests will necessarily be adversely affected. In fact, on the contrary. The aim of the urban development areas is to confer benefits upon an area which could have a spin-off effect upon the private interests within those geographical areas. For that legal reason, the rather attractive argument of the noble and learned Lord must fall down.
Lord ELWYN-JONES: With respect, I should have thought the beneficial or selective benefit to an individual might also impinge the rule on hybridity.
Lord MISHCON: I am perfectly sure that my noble and learned friend Lord Elwyn-Jones needs no assistance from very junior counsel on the Back Benches, but may I add to his observations in respectful support of them only so that the case put to the Committee is a complete one. It takes a Tory Government, if I may say so, not just to try to sail through Scylla and Charybdis but to try to sail through, presumably, Scylla and Hybridis, in the sense that quite obviously this dilemma has been caused by virtue of the fact that the general—it may be for good reason—has been turned into the particular.
I want to refer the Committee not only to subsection (3) of Clause 124, which my noble and learned friend read to the Committee—and he took out certain clauses which were obviously material—but to subsection (2), which states the
1194
objects of these particular urban development areas, as set up by direction. The objects are the following:
"by bringing land and buildings into effective use".
The land and buildings may well belong to private persons. It may be the view of the urban development corporation that it is the betterment of their buildings that has to take place. It may be the thought of private people owning that land that the view of the urban development corporation as to what is effective use of their buildings and land may be, from their point of view, disadvantageous. Then:
"encouraging the development of existing and new industry and commerce".
To some private interests that may be encouraging competition within their area which may be unfortunate and devasting.
I conclude by quoting from the last part of subsection (2):
"creating an attractive environment and ensuring that housing and social facilities are available to encourage people to live and work in the area".
That is a most meritorious object but, quite obviously, bringing other people into an area which may be an area of heavy unemployment may lead to more unemployment in that area and the unemployment, as it were, of people who are now employed there. I am sure that my noble and learned friend, if he had wished to elaborate his case, would himself have quoted from subsection (2), but so that the Committee knows the whole weight of my noble and learned friend's submission I thought it proper to draw the Committee's attention to subsection (2).
Lord EVANS of CLAUGHTON: If I may refer to something which is in a sense even more dramatic than the reference the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, has made, page 210, paragraph 10, is headed at line 42 with the rather sinister words, "Displacement of persons". I should have thought that if anything was an example of the invasion of private persons' rights, the right to displace tenants who are protected until the property is bought by the urban development corporation, displaced without any rights of protection under the Rent Act, was a good example and it is the subject of an amendment I hope to move.
Lord PONSONBY of SHULBREDE: Irrespective of any views which may be obtained on the hybridity issue, we find this amendment entirely unacceptable and we will press it to a Division.
6.38 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 253A) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 135; Not-Contents, 62.

CONTENTS

Ailesbury, M.

Gisborough, L.

Morris, L.

Airedale, L.

Gladwyn, L.

Mowbray and Stourton, L.

Ampthill, L.

Glenarthur, L.

Murton of Lindisfarne, L.

Auckland, L.

Glendevon, L.

Netherthorpe, L.

Avebury, L.

Gormanston, V.

Northchurch, B.

Avon, E. [Teller.]

Gowrie, E.

Nugent of Guildford, L.

Balerno, L.

Greenway, L.

Onslow, E.

Banks, L.

Gridley, L.

Orkney, E.

Bellwin, L.

Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, L. (L. Chancellor.)

Orr-Ewing, L.

Belstead, L.

Porritt, L.

Boardman, L.

Hampton, L.

Rawlinson of Ewell, L.

Bolton, L.

Hanworth, V.

Redesdale, L.

Boyd-Carpenter, L.

Harvington, L.

Reigate, L.

Brabazon of Tara, L.

Hatherton, L.

Renton, L.

Brougham and Vaux, L.

Henley, L.

Rochdale, V.

Caithness, E.

Hill of Luton, L.

Rochester, L.

Campbell of Croy, L.

Holderness, L.

Rodney, L.

Cathcart, E.

Hornsby-Smith, B.

Sackville, L.

Cockfield, L.

Inglewood, L.

St. Aldwyn, E.

Colville of Culross, V.

Kemsley, V.

St. Davids, V.

Colwyn, L.

Keyes, L.

Salisbury, M.

Cork and Orrery, E.

Killearn, L.

Sandford, L.

Cottesloe, L.

Kilmarnock, L.

Sandys, L. [Teller.]

Craigavon, V.

Kinloss, Ly.

Seear, B.

Craigmyle, L.

Kinnaird, L.

Sempill, Ly.

Croft, L.

Lauderdale, E.

Shannon, E.

Cullen of Ashbourne, L.

Linlithgow, M.

Simon, V.

de Clifford, L.

Liverpool, E.

Spens, L.

De Freyne, L.

Lloyd of Kilgerran, L.

Stamp, L.

De La Warr, E.

Long, V.

Strathclyde, L.

Denham, L.

Loudoun, C.

Strathcona and Mount Royal, L.

Digby, L.

Lucas of Chilworth, L.

Strathmore and Kinghorne, E.

Drumalbyn, L.

Lyell, L.

Swansea, L.

Dudley, E.

McAlpine of Moffat, L.

Swinfen, L.

Eccles, V.

Mackay of Clashfern, L.

Teviot, L.

Ellenborough, L.

Macleod of Borve, B.

Tranmire, L.

Elliot of Harwood, B.

Malmesbury, E.

Trefgarne, L.

Evans of Claughton, L.

Mancroft, L.

Trumpington, B.

Falkland, V.

Margadale, L.

Vaizey, L.

Ferrers, E.

Marley, L.

Vaux of Harrowden, L.

Feversham, L.

Marshall of Leeds, L.

Vickers, B.

Gage, V.

Melville, V.

Vivian, L.

Gainford, L.

Mills, V.

Wakefield of Kendal, L.

Gainsborough, E.

Minto, E.

Winstanley, L.

Gibson-Watt, L.

Monk Bretton, L.

Young, B.

NOT-CONTENTS

Bacon, B.

Fisher of Rednal, B.

Lockwood, B.

Balogh, L.

Gaitskell, B.

Lovell-Davis, L.

Bernstein, L.

Galpern, L.

McCarthy, L.

Beswick, L.

George-Brown, L.

McCluskey, L.

Blyton, L.

Glenamara, L.

McGregor of Durris, L.

Boston of Faversham, L.

Greenwood of Rossendale, L.

Maelor, L.

Brooks of Tremorfa, L.

Hale, L.

Melchett, L.

Bruce of Donington, L.

Hatch of Lusby, L.

Mishcon, L.

Cledwyn of Penrhos, L.

Houghton of Sowerby, L.

Noel-Baker, L.

Collison, L.

Jacques, L.

Pargiter, L.

Cooper of Stockton Heath, L.

Janner, L.

Peart, L.

David, B.

Jeger, B.

Pitt of Hampstead, L.

Davies of Leek, L.

Kaldor, L.

Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.

Donaldson of Kingsbridge, L.

Leatherland, L.

Ross of Marnock, L.

Elwyn-Jones, L.

Llewelyn-Davies of Hastoe, B.

Sainsbury, L.

Segal, L.

Taylor of Mansfield, L.

Wilson of Radcliffe, L.

Stedman, B.

Underhill, L.

Winterbottom, L.

Stone, L.

Wallace of Coslany, L. [Teller.]

Worcester, Bp.

Strobolgi, L. [Teller.]

Walston, L.

Wynne-Jones, L.

Taylor of Blackburn, L.

Whaddon, L.

Young of Dartington, L.

Taylor of Gryfe, L.

Willis, L.

Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.
[Amendment No. 254 not moved.]
6.47 p.m.
Lord PONSONBY of SHULBREDE Lord PONSONBY of SHULBREDE moved Amendment No. 255:
Page 102, line 20, after ("State") insert ("after consultation with the appropriate local authority or authorities").
The noble Lord said: In fact these two amendments are almost identical. Amendment No. 254 was tabled immediately before a better version of the amendment was worked out. In speaking to Amendment No. 255 I should also like to speak to Amendments Nos. 256 and 257. These are all matters concerning consultation. Perhaps before I start to speak to these amendments it might be helpful to noble Lords to know that my intention was to raise the whole question or urban development corporations when we come to the Question whether Clause 122 should stand part, and therefore it was my intention on these amendments to speak specifically to the issues involved and not to go into the generalities of the proposals for establishing UDCs. Again before I move to the amendments, harking back for a second to the last amendment we had, I hope the noble Lord, Lord Bellwin, has taken to heart that if the AMA was not consulted on the previous amendment efforts will be made between now and Report stage to get in touch with the AMA to consult on the terms of that particular amendment.
These three amendments concern the question of consultation. They make it obligatory on the Secretary of State to consult with the appropriate authority or authorities before establishing an urban development corporation. The first amendment refers to the general question of consultation; that is, that the Secretary of State when he has in mind to establish an urban development corporation is to discuss the generality of it with the local authority or authorities concerned.
The second amendment is to say that the urban development corporations should
1198
be established where it is in the best local, regional and national interest. At the present time this clause says only that it must be in the national interest. One would have thought that it was equally important that it should be in the local and regional interest; for example, in London that there should be consultation not just on the national interests but with the metropolitan authority and the district councils concerned as well.
The third amendment is that, once the decision has been made by the Secretary of State to establish an urban development corporation and before he designates an area of land as an urban development corporation, he will formally consult with the local authorities concerned in whose area the land is situated. Therefore the three amendments taken together ensure a wide consultation process by the Secretary of State and it would seem that, rather than the Secretary of State using his very strong powers without consultation, he should in fact consult before he uses them.
I could expand a little, but I hesitate to do so on this particular amendment because if I do I am in the danger of going on to the generality of the whole question of urban development corporations; therefore I wish to limit my remarks to saying that there should be consultation before urban development corporations are established.
Lord EVANS of CLAUGHTON: Such is the arrogance of power, or possibly the arrogance of the Secretary of State, that as a member of the Merseyside County Council affected very closely by the proposed urban development corporation on Merseyside, the kind of consultation, or some of the kind of consultation, which the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, has mentioned as desirable has been taking place for some considerable number of months as if an urban development corporation was already in existence. We have had frequent visits from regional representatives of the Department of the Environment. The Liverpool City Council, the Wirral Borough Council and

1199
Merseyside, the three authorities involved in the urban development corporation on Merseyside, are receiving very frequent visits from the representative of the department from the regional office—in Manchester, which in itself, to a Liverpudlian, is an insult, but nevertheless that is where they are—and we have also had a certain amount of consultation from the offices of the department in London.
The extent to which there has been consultation beyond those three authorities in my area, and the extent of the consultation that has already taken place in the London Dockland area, I do not know, but certainly they have been consulting on the assumption that an urban development corporation is being established. Now the concern of many of us, quite apart from the initial objection to an urban development corporations in any event, is the extent to which the views expressed on Merseyside are being taken into account in establishing the urban development corporations, and from the form of the Bill as it stands at present I would say that very little notice has been taken of the wishes of the local authority. As your Lordships know, the chairman, deputy chairman and chief executive designate have all been chosen. The leader of the Merseyside County Council, Sir Kenneth Thompson, and a former Member in another place, who was a passionate opponent of the whole concept of urban development corporations, is the deputy chairman on Merseyside, which of course causes a certain amount of difficulty and certain problems, but to that extent the thing seems to be under way.
What, I am sure, concerns the people in London Dockland and certainly the people in Merseyside, is consultation about the prospective boundaries, or the boundaries, of the urban development corporation on Merseyside. As the noble Lord the Minister said, it is going to be on both sides of the Mersey, which is, assuming you believe in urban development corporations, reasonable, but it does some very curious things. It splits the area of the urban development corporation's sphere of activity on the Wirral side into two parts, leaving the very controversial—I apologise for being parochial—means of access from Birkenhead to
1200
Wallasey as not part of the urban development corporation. It leaves the four bridges, as they are known on Merseyside, as not part of the urban development corporation. Some of us cannot help having the cynical point of view that this has been left out because it is a very expensive area to maintain because of the bridges, and the movement up and down and sideways of the bridges, is an extremely expensive part of the infrastructure.
I am sure that the Minister will reassure us that all kinds of consultation will take place. What I am concerned about is the extent to which that consultation will be taken seriously by the departments, the extent to which we shall have a very early definition of the boundaries to be included in the urban development corporation, the reasons why areas have been left out, and the opportunity to make representations that areas that have not been included should be included and that areas that have been included should not be included.
Lord BELLWIN: We entirely accept the need for consultation, as proposed in the first of the amendments, but we consider it important not to make this a legal requirement, since if such procedures were to form part of the main legislation they could be used to delay the establishment of UDCs. For UDCs, a designation procedure similar to that in the New Towns Act could lead to a long period of delay and uncertainty. The need to avoid any hiatus in tackling the problems of decay in these two areas calls for quicker designation procedures than would be possible as, for instance, under the new towns model, which includes a public inquiry, and that is a procedure that can take up to two years.
Under our proposals for UDCs, those with locus standi would be able to petition against the UDC designation orders and be heard by a House of Lords Select Committee. We consider this to be an adequate safeguard for those affected, since it would mean that designation orders would be open to detailed scrutiny and would be subject to the approval of both Houses of Parliament. The Government are firmly committed to this approach. Frankly, we simply do not have time for the luxury of going through a lengthy public inquiry process when there is so

1201
much at stake in these two important areas of the country.
I say again, we entirely accept that councils and other bodies affected should be consulted. In the cases of the proposed urban development corporation areas in London and Merseyside the consultation, as the noble Lord, Lord Evans, said, has been taking place over the last year and last autumn we issued a consultation document, following which we met leaders of the local authorities; and, as he said, the chairman, deputy chairman and chief executive designate have been busy establishing contact in their areas and have made it plain they attach great importance to co-operating with the local authorities and building upon what already exists, rather than starting entirely afresh. The Government have therefore consulted and hope to issue further consultative papers in advance of the laying of the orders.
The danger that this amendment would bring—and I am referring to Amendment No. 257—is that all the consultation undertaken so far would not count and we would have to start again, with all the delay and hiatus that that would cause, and it would render nugatory nearly all the measures taken by the Government so
far to avoid a hiatus and to get things moving.
Finally, the concept of designation in the national interest has been used successfully in the designation of new towns under the New Towns Act, and it signifies that the important step which the Government intend to take in setting up the UDA is of a national, rather than a purely local or regional, dimension and its practical effect would be to bring for a period the advantages of central Government resources in the task of regenerating an area. I hope that we shall not accept these amendments. Indeed, I hope that, in view of what I have said, the noble Lord might wish to withdraw them.
Lord PONSONBY of SHULBREDE: I thank the noble Lord for his remarks. I entirely accept that consultations have been taking place, but we feel very strongly that the fact that there should be consultations should be written into the Bill. Therefore I shall press Amendment No. 255.
7.1 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 255) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 66; Not-Contents, 104.

CONTENTS

Ailesbury, M.

Glenamara, L.

Rochester, L.

Airedale, L.

Hale, L.

Ross of Marnock, L.

Avebury, L.

Hampton, L.

Sainsbury, L.

Bacon, B.

Hatch of Lusby, L.

Seear, B.

Balogh, L.

Houghton of Sowerby, L.

Simon, V.

Bernstein, L.

Jacques, L.

Stedman, B.

Beswick, L.

Janner, L.

Stone, L.

Blyton, L.

Jeger, B.

Strabolgi, L. [Teller]

Boston of Faversham, L.

Kaldor, L.

Taylor of Blackburn, L.

Brooks of Tremorfa, L.

Kilmarnock, L.

Taylor of Gryfe, L.

Bruce of Donington, L.

Llewelyn-Davies of Hastoe, B.

Taylor of Mansfield, L.

Cledwyn of Penrhos, L.

Lloyd of Kilgerran, L.

Underhill, L.

Collison, L.

Lockwood, B.

Wallace of Coslany, L. [Teller]

David, B.

Lovell-Davis, L.

Walston, L.

Davies of Leek, L.

McCluskey, L.

Whaddon, L.

Donaldson of Kingsbridge, L.

Maelor, L.

Willis, L.

Elwyn-Jones, L.

Melchett, L.

Wilson of Radcliffe, L.

Evans of Claughton, L.

Milner of Leeds, L.

Winstanley, L.

Gaitskell, B.

Mishcon, L.

Winterbottom, L.

Galpern, L.

Peart, L.

Worcester, Bp.

George-Brown, L.

Pitt of Hampstead, L.

Wynne-Jones, L.

Gladwyn, L.

Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.

Young of Dartington, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Ampthill, L.

Belstead, L.

Brougham and Vaux, L.

Auckland, L.

Boardman, L.

Caithness, E.

Avon, E.

Bolton, L.

Campbell of Croy, L.

Balerno, L.

Boyd-Carpenter, L.

Cathcart, E.

Bellwin, L.

Brabazon of Tara, L.

Chalfont, L.

Colville of Culross, V.

Kemsley, V.

Rawlinson of Ewell, L.

Colwyn, L.

Keyes, L.

Redesdale, L.

Cork and Orrery, E.

Killearn, L.

Reigate, L.

Cottesloe, L.

Kinloss, Ly.

Renton, L.

Craigavon, V.

Kinnaird, L.

Rochdale, V.

Craigmyle, L.

Lauderdale, E.

Rodney, L.

Croft, L.

Linlithgow, M.

Sackville, L.

Cullen of Ashbourne, L.

Liverpool, E.

St. Aldwyn, E.

de Clifford, L.

Long, V.

Saint Oswald, L.

De Freyne, L.

Loudoun, C.

Salisbury, M.

De La Warr, E.

Lucas of Chilworth, L.

Sandys, L. [Teller]

Denham, L. [Teller]

Lyell, L.

Sempill, Ly.

Digby, L.

McApline of Moffat, L.

Stamp, L.

Drumalbyn, L.

Mackay of Clashfern, L.

Strathclyde, L.

Ellenborough, L.

Malmesbury, E.

Strathcona and Mount Royal, L.

Elliot of Harwood, B.

Margadale, L.

Strathmore and Kinghorne, E.

Falkland, V.

Marley, L.

Swansea, L.

Ferrers, E.

Marshall of Leeds, L.

Teviot, L.

Fortescue, E.

Melville, V.

Tranmire, L.

Gibson-Watt, L.

Middleton, L.

Trefgarne, L.

Glendevon, L.

Mills, V.

Trumpington, B.

Gowrie, E.

Monk Bretton, L.

Vaizey, L.

Greenway, L.

Mowbray and Stourton, L.

Vaux of Harrowden, L.

Hanworth, V.

Netherthorpe, L.

Vickers, B.

Harvington, L.

Northchurch, B.

Vivian, L.

Hatherton, L.

Nugent of Guildford, L.

Wakefield of Kendal, L.

Henley, L.

Onslow, E.

Westbury, L.

Hill of Luton, L.

Orkney, E.

Wilson of Langside, L.

Hornsby-Smith, B.

Orr-Ewing, L.

Young, B.

Inglewood, L.

Porritt, L.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

[Amendment No. 256 not moved.]
7.9 p.m.
Lord DENHAM: I think that this might be an appropriate moment to adjourn for dinner. When I have moved the resumption of the House I should like to make a business statement. I beg to move that the House do now resume.
House resumed.

BUSINESS
Lord DENHAM: My Lords, it might be for the convenience of the House if I announce now that the Government propose to continue the Committee stage of the Bill until approximately 12 o'clock tonight. If the Committee stage should not be completed, it would be continued tomorrow after the Committee stage of the Broadcasting Bill has been completed. The Government would hope that the Broadcasting Bill Committee stage should be completed by about seven o'clock tomorrow.
My Lords, tomorrow dinner as we normally have it in the Dining Room
will not be available. Of course, the Grill Room will be open and some form of refreshment in the two bars will also be available. In fact, as we shall be switching from one Bill to another—in the event of this Bill not being completed tonight—there will be no dinner adjournment.
My Lords, I beg to move that this House do now adjourn during pleasure until 10 minutes past eight o'clock.
[The Sitting was suspended from 7.11 to 8.10 p.m.]

LOCAL GOVERNMENT, PLANNING AND LAND (NO. 2) BILL
House again in Committee on Clause 122.
Lord BELLWIN Lord BELLWIN moved Amendment No. 256A:
Page 102, line 23, at end insert—
("(1A) An area of land in England may only be so designated if—

(a) it is in a metropolitan district; or

(b) it is in an inner London borough or partly in an inner London borough and partly in an outer London borough which has a boundary in common with that inner London borough.

1205
(1B) Separate parcels of land may be designated as one urban development area.").
The noble Lord said: I spoke to this amendment before. I beg to move.
[Amendment No. 257 not moved.]
On Question, Whether Clause 122, as amended, shall stand part of the Bill?
Lord ELWYN-JONES: In considering whether we should now give approval to this crucial part of Part XVI of the Bill, namely, that we should approve of the proposition that
"If the Secretary of State is of opinion that it is expedient in the national interest to do so, he may by order made by statutory instrument designate any area of land as an urban development area",
we should consider the implications of what is proposed for what we now understand to be the two areas principally affected. I say this of course without prejudice to my earlier argument about hybridity. I am happy to think that the noble Lord, Lord Evans of Claughton, has expert knowledge to bring to bear on Liverpool. I hope he will forgive me if therefore I concentrate on London dockland.
It may be desirable for us to consider what area we are talking about and what its composition is. We are talking about 5,500 acres of land in the centre of one of the largest cities in the world. Over 1 million people live in the affected area. It is not a separate entity. It is made up of sections of five London boroughs, Greenwich, Lewisham, Newham, Southwark and Tower Hamlets, divided by the River Thames. Each section of the land with which we are concerned is linked with the borough in which it is situated. Surrey Docks with Southwark, the Isle of Dogs and Wapping with Tower Hamlets, Canning Town and Beckton with Newham.
Then the docklands is of great significance because it lies next to the City of London with reasonable communications with the West End so that national, regional, and local interests are all interested and concerned in the land about which we are speaking. It was awareness of these broad facts and that a new town corporation would not suit the circumstances
1206
that I have summarised, which prompted the setting up of the Docklands Joint Committee in 1974. Incidentally, I do not take pride in this fact, but it is worth mentioning that it was I think a Conservative Minister who conceived or fathered the idea—perhaps it is the same thing.
That Docklands Joint Committee brings together what I submit to be is an effective and balanced representation of the five boroughs and of the Greater London Council with independent members, including Government nominees. In 1976 that body produced the Docklands Strategic Plan and approved of it after elaborate, wide-ranging but fairly rapid consultations throughout the docklands area with all the interests concerned. The first phase of the plan, upon which a great deal of work has been done, as I shall indicate in a moment, is to be concluded in 1982, and that will involve a quarter of the proposed housing in the dockland and one third of the provision of industrial premises for jobs. It has been a time-consuming and of course expensive undertaking.
After a recent visit to it with several of my noble friends we were greatly impressed with the progress we saw. We toured the whole area and were impressed with the progress that had been made, and to learn that work is well ahead of the targets in the strategic plan. I do not want to go into detail of what has been done, but perhaps I may illustrate the matter, because of my own early interest and honour in representing the area, by what has been achieved in the Newham area where about half of the land with which we are concerned lies.
Twenty seven million pounds has been spent on projects since 1975 and a great deal of that has been spent on infrastructure. For example, £10 million has been spent on surface water drainage, link roads, and matters of that kind. It is interesting that urban aid approval has fairly recently been given for two major spine roads to open up the Beckton Marshes area. Now the scheme is in hand and we saw the progress that has been made and is well ahead in Silvertown and North Woolwich, where there are over 500 houses and a large area of open space. Then in Beckton there are 3,800 dwellings, and industrial floor space which should provide space for the provision

1207
of industry, and 4,600 jobs may be gained, and then 48 hectares of open space.
What was interesting to note was that there was a readiness to make developments attractive for private developers in East Beckton the super store development, and then in other parts of the area a vast printing works establishment. There are considerable further projects which are in hand and a great deal of it has, I emphasise, been spent on infrastructure. Therefore, cursory visit to the site suggests the slight sense of wilderness that one sees in an area of development in its early stages. It may well be that in so far as the Secretary of State ever visited the separate areas he may have been misled by that fact. These are the circumstances in which these proposals have been made, are being carried out, and are achieving impressive results already with the arrangement which already exists.
In another place the Member for Newham, Mr. Spearing, quoted a letter that the Newham Chamber of Commerce—not a notoriously socialistic body in its outlook—had sent to the Secretary of State on 9th November 1979. They said:
"We suggest to you that here in Newham the trends you want to change—reclaiming land, encouraging private development, improving the environment, creating a demand for housing, encouraging the voluntary sector—are the very things already in active progress through the local council. So why change? As a Chamber of Commerce, without political affiliations and concerned only with the collective welfare and development of the business community, we would ask you to reconsider your decision or at least modify it so that the local Authority can continue to operate and direct to a successful conclusion the developments which it has started, has already put in the pipeline, or are planned for the future."
That is an appeal which I venture to make, but I suspect that that appeal, at this stage of the consideration of the matter, would from the other side receive a somewhat dusty answer.
What puzzles me is how the existence of a development corporation could have solved problems more easily or quickly than the Dockland Joint Committee has succeeded in doing. It will not, as I understand it, be able to call on any professional skills or expertise which is not already available to that body and
1208
the authorities with which it co-operates, and it will not have the advantage, certainly for a long time, of the local knowledge of the areas which the Dockland Joint Committee obviously has, and we on this side of the Committee fail to see how it will be better equipped to deal with the undoubtedly difficult problems of dockland.
One of the crucial questions there, of course, is the existence of large areas of land in the ownership of statutory undertakers, a problem which I apprehend that at the end of the day the Government will have to deal with. The other crucial question is that of financial backing for what is proposed. Those are two of the three nightmares that are presently faced; the persistence up to now of the statutory undertakers, the threat involved in this new proposal casting a spanner into the works, and the risk of cuts in financial backing for the projects. Those are the problems that lie ahead.
I am bound to say that the concern which has been expressed to me by the people in the locality, quite apart from the interruption and disturbance this will cause in development already being undertaken to achieve the very objects with which the Government say they are concerned, is that proposals will be prepared by this new body quite divorced from the needs and aspirations of the local communities who have lived in and developed this area and have suffered in the area in the past over decades and more. We on this side of the Committee believe that the real way ahead now for this area, which suffered so much from dereliction, slummery and squalor in the old days of private development, coupled with the havoc caused by Hitler's bombs, lies in the Secretary of State's joining with the constitutnent authorities and the DJC in a genuine partnership.
8.24 p.m.
Lord EVANS of CLAUGHTON: The noble and learned Lord, Lord Elwyn-Jones, said I would have more knowledge than he about the problems of Merseyside. He certainly has a great deal more knowledge than I about the problems of London's dockland. It is perhaps ironic that both of us should be speaking, one for London and the other for Liverpool, and both be Welshmen, but perhaps

1209
that says something about the way the Welsh race has of wandering around meddling in other people's business.
Lord ELWYN-JONES: I would remind the noble Lord that we were here on the islands before the others came.
Lord EVANS of CLAUGHTON: The noble and learned Lord is of course right; his memory is better than mine. The problem on Merseyside is similar to, but by no means the same as, the problem in the London dockland area. We have the south docks area, South of Pier Head, and the north dock area with the West Float on the other side in the Wirral. Taking the south docks first, the area where the use of the docks as docks has long since ceased, noble Lords who have watched the television programme "The Onedin Line" will know that it is the south docks that were used in that period. In the recent past the south docks have ceased to be used for any maritime purpose and have become silted up.
Having said that, I hasten to add that there is still a vibrant life in those areas; the former warehouses are now used for businesses and, so that noble Lords do not think the area is one great wasteland, there is a large number of successful small businesses operating in the old warehouses, many of which are protected buildings. The north docks, getting out towards the estuary, are still in use but are likely to go out of use in the fairly near future and are prospective areas for inclusion in the urban development area, although they are not yet included. The area on the Wirral side, the West Float, is still in use, but again is suffering from dereliction and is also prospectively included in the urban development area.
Before the reorganisation of local government, the Liverpool side of the docks, the south and north docks, were being considered for redevelopment or reappraisal by the city council. Since reorganisation, both the city council and the new Merseyside County Council have had considerable involvement in the attempt to regenerate the areas, and one of the things the county has done is set up a maritime museum adjacent to the Albert Dock, which is a highly thought of building in conservation terms, and has made many preliminary arrangements about taking leases of the south docks area
1210
from the Mersey Dock and Harbour Company, the owners of the land. It is our view that we were progressing quite well on our own, that if we had had a little help by way of slight changes in legislation to assist us in loans and land acquisition, it is the view of the Merseyside County Council that they could have done all that was necessary to regenerate the area without the setting up of an urban development corporation.
Indeed, in March 1979 the Secretary of State, who was then in Opposition, poured scorn at a meeting in Liverpool on what he described at the time as the Labour Government's scheme to establish yet another body to tackle the problems of Merseyside's docklands. Lo and behold! after the general election, and almost as soon as he was appointed Secretary of State by the incoming Conservative Administration, the Secretary of State announced his intention of setting up just such a body as he had criticised and poured scorn on, for the London and Merseyside docklands. In fact, at the time when he was causing the mass execution of Quangos, here he was setting up two large and potentially very important Quangos instead.
In the Merseyside area there are now—I suspect this may be the excuse or reason the Government will give for setting up an urban development corporation in this area—about a dozen different bodies tackling the problems of Merseyside's dockland; the county council; Liverpool City Council; Wirral Borough Council; Mersey Dock and Harbour Company, the owner of most of the land involved; the new Urban Development Corporation designate; the Enterprise Zones designate; the Inner City Partnership and a large array of voluntary and quasi voluntary agencies. All seem to the people on Merseyside to be competing and meddling in the same problem. This problem started largely on reorganisation and I can well understand, without agreeing with the Minister and his right honourable friend, the reason why they decided they must have an urban development corporation in spite of the fact that they castigated it as socialist-type thinking.
One must admit that the local authorities were seen to be arguing and quarrelling among themselves about who should be responsible for what, in particular, in

1211
the south docks area. Though I am not a supporter of the concept of county councils, if there was ever a point in reorganisation, it was that an organisation such as the county council, with Merseyside-wide responsibilities, or metropolitan area-wide responsibilities, is obviously the kind of organisation that should have the overall responsibility for an area such as this which straddles the boundaries of the metropolitan district councils.
At the end of the day, even if, as a Liberal, one does not support the particular system of election, the councillors on the Merseyside County Council, on the City Council and on the Wirral Borough Council are democratically elected councillors who as such are answerable to the communities they represent. The municipalisation, or the nationalisation, if one likes—I do not wish to use emotive terms, but it is a form of nationalisation or municipilisation—of a whole area, putting it into the control of people who are not accountable or are not democratically elected, seems to me to be an evasion of the democratic principle. If you answer that by saying, "Well, you are not doing the job properly. We need to collect all the resources together", my reply is that if we had the additional powers, which I mentioned earlier in my speech, of land assembly, as well as powers of borrowing, then the work could be done by the democratically-elected county council. That really is the gravamen of my argument.
It is understandable to any of us who have been engaged in local government and who care about local democracy that we should be resisting the proposals to set up a non-elected body. If I may quote from Dr. John Riane of the Joint Centre for Regional, Urban and Local Government Studies at the University of Birmingham, I think that your Lordships will see that he puts the matter very well. He says that
"local government is, not unjustifiably, showing considerable concern at a number of issues over which the establishment of urban development corporations impinges upon their own role. First, because the new corporations will be accountable through the Secretary of State to Parliament, they are unable to fulfil properly the need for locally accountable local government. Moreover, although proponents of the idea emphasise the importance of consultation with local authorities, and in accommodating as best as possible the policies of existing local plans, there is scepticism that the proposals can imply
1212
anything else than the replacement of established local government organisation by new and unproven organisations".
I think that that puts very succinctly the argument of those of us who believe that democratically accountable local government should do this kind of job.
In an earlier debate I mentioned concern about defining the areas to be included in the urban development corporation. I also wish to mention—and I think that this is very important, and no doubt it will be raised later in the discussion on this part of the Bill—the relationship of the urban development corporation with the adjacent and contiguous local authorities. Some of my amendments to be reached later seek to deal with this question, though I see that the Government have put down an amendment, Amendment No. 279, which I spent a large part of the day trying to fathom, which I think goes some of the way to meeting the objections that I have made. Another objection that amendments that I have put down try to deal with is connected with trying to ensure that local authorities are recompensed for work done prior to the setting up of urban development corporations, if the corporations come into existence.
There are a number of other questions that I think need to be considered during the debate on this clause and further clauses. Given that we are in a position—as we are frequently told, and as I think we all well know—in which resources in the public sector are scarce, should those scarce resources be concentrated in small areas? If those resources are scarce, should they be concentrated in the small area of urban district councils? Should they not be spread more evenly over whole areas of urban problems?
So far as Merseyside is concerned—and I am sure that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Elwyn-Jones, would agree with me so far as London is concerned—docklands represents only part of urban decay. It is not only the docklands on Merseyside that are suffering from urban decay. I feel that I must ask what is the relationship, or the prospective relationship, between the urban development corporations and the adjacent enterprise zones when they are set up? Might not both these kind of organisations—the enterprise zones and the urban development cor-

1213
porations—indeed succeed, as we all hope that they will, in regenerating the dock-lands areas and the enterprise zone areas, but only at the expense of other areas?
To me, this is an absolutely key question because we in Merseyside—and I am sure that this applies in other areas where there are to be enterprise zones, and in other dockland areas, too—have terrible problems in the dockland areas and in the inner urban areas, as well as in the outer urban areas. We have appalling difficulties in Kirkby, where there are massive problems regarding housing and the general quality of life in what is a comparatively new area.
So in my worst dreams I cannot help imagining a thriving dockland area in the future, following a successful urban development corporation enterprise, surrounded by inner and outer city areas, such as Kirkby, Liverpool 8, and parts of the Wirral, with empty council flats, grotesquely high unemployment, in particular among young people, an unskilled workforce, closed libraries, inadequate recreation, poor schools and deteriorating social services.
We in Merseyside are all delighted that the Secretary of State comes to chair the Inner City Partnership, but I believe that that Partnership itself could be severely affected if money in very large amounts was to be thrown to the urban development corporations, at the cost of failing to tackle other very desirable projects to alleviate problems of urban regeneration.
Finally, I should like to quote very briefly from the same Dr. Raine. He says that, whatever our view of the vision of the urban development corporation,
"three questions had yet to be asked and answered. First, how will we measure the effectiveness of the corporations"—
in relation to other urban problems—
"second, how long are we prepared to wait for the corporations to prove themselves; third, might not the local authorities themselves give similar commitment to the problems, were they given the appropriate powers and resources?"
That seems to me to sum up the problems. Urban development corporations might solve some problems and create other problems. Unless we give the opportunity to democratically-elected local bodies, we have no means of knowing whether those bodies, working together,
1214
cannot solve the problem without the creation of a vast, new, unelected bureaucratic Quango-type organisation. As a person with a great belief in local democracy, it seems to me that those questions have not been answered satisfactorily, and that there is no likelihood of their being answered satisfactorily. Therefore, I feel that if we believe in democratically elected local authorities, we should be making a great mistake in proceeding with the urban development corporations.
8.39 p.m.
Lord BELLWIN: May I first say that of course I am well aware that the Government's UDC proposals have generated controversy and that leaders of some local authorities have expressed particular anxieties. Equally I think it is fair to point out that the Government proposals have also attracted considerable support. I am the first to recognise the point that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Elwyn-Jones, made, when speaking of London, about the existing organisation under the Docklands Joint Committee, which he said had made much progress. I entirely accept that. I would pay tribute to it. Indeed, I know something of it. I have made it my business to find out, and not for a moment do I wish in any way to detract from that. But, as I shall point out in a few moments, what the Government are concerned with is the scale and the rate at which progress is being made. It is because we feel as we do about this that, in a Session which really is so crowded with other important business, we have nevertheless thought it right to bring forward legislative provisions to enable these urban development corporations to be established.
I was interested to note, after these matters had been discussed in another place, that the noble Lord, Lord Evans, quoted a Dr. Raine. I wonder whether I may be permitted to quote a verdict (if you like) offered by a conference under the auspices of the Royal Institute of British Architects in July of this year. The Building magazine commented:
"The Government is to set up an urban development corporation for Docklands with extensive powers modelled on those of existing new towns. Given the success of the new towns movement, the strength of the opposition in some quarters is hard to understand. A UDC which retains a practical perspective on what is possible steers the path between the municipal empires of

1215
the boroughs and County Hall, but which seeks good working relationships with both, should certainly make progress. Certainly the UDC must be Docklands' last chance to achieve the 1970 vision".
The noble and learned Lord, Lord Elwyn-Jones, said that there may be certain problems in connection with hybridity, but I think we will let that alone for now and wait for others to make their comments on that. I have spoken earlier on the matter of designation, so I will not go over that one again, except to repeat that the Government's intention is that there be the two that are specified. I hope that that, at least, is accepted.
As with the new towns, once the task of achieving effective development in the areas has been concluded, the UDCs will be wound up, their assets disposed of and the powers restored to the local authorities. I see the UDCs as bringing very positive benefits to their areas. They will have access to a mixture of grant and loan financed from the Government, and they will be able to concentrate in a single-minded fashion on the development of the area. As dereliction is removed and the environment improved, new developments and activities are started up and employment is created. Real benefits, then, will flow to the whole community in the area, and this can surely be only in the best interests, in the medium-term, of the local authorities also.
It is the Government's intention to lay the orders setting up the individual UDCs as soon after Royal Assent as is possible, but perhaps I should mention now that we are anxious that, in advance of laying the orders, your Lordships' House and, indeed, other interested bodies should have available detailed information on the nature of the Government's intentions, which we have made clear are restricted, as I have said. We hope to publish shortly a document, copies of which will be made available to noble Lords, setting out our proposals both for the boundaries of the proposed UDC areas—and this was touched upon earlier—and the powers which it is proposed the individual urban development corporations should have.
At the end of the day, UDCs can be judged only by their achievements. We have yet to receive from the shadow UDCs comprehensive proposals for their
1216
schemes in 1981–82, but our intention would be, bearing in mind the need for significant restraint in public expenditure, nevertheless to make sums available which are adequate to the task that they face. But—and I must stress this—public money will not do the trick on its own. The UDCs will need to be skilful and active in involving the private sector, levering investments wherever possible, facilitating planning permission, discussing with the institutions and engaging in some pump-priming developments of their own, but wherever possible passing this on to the private sector.
The idea of UDCs is not entirely a novel one. As I have indicated, there are healthy precedents in the new towns in the United Kingdom, particularly in the later ones, where partnerships have existed between the development corporations and the existing local authorities. It is true that new towns pose different problems from the urban areas we are considering in London and Merseyside docklands. There are few green field sites in the dockland areas; but the problems which face the Merseyside and London dockland areas have a national dimension, and a similar magnitude to that which the early new towns faced. That is why we think it is so important that a national view is taken of the need to set up these UDCs.
The noble and learned Lord, Lord Elywn-Jones, said, "Why can UDCs achieve more than the existing committees?". He quoted the gentleman from the Newham Chamber of Commerce who said, "Why change?". I say, for a number of reasons. First of all, they can bring to these problems a single-minded and purposive approach. It is something which does not face the varied and disparate tasks of existing local authorities, but has the capacity to operate direct on the problem of land which is sterilised by the statutory undertakers under the vesting procedure. There will be some extra resources from Government, and Government can use their professional expertise in levering finance from the private sector.
Before I conclude perhaps I could touch on one or two points made by the noble Lord, Lord Evans. He said that these are only part of urban decay. Of course they are only part of urban

1217
decay, but they are parts that stand out. In London, as the noble and learned Lord himself said: Here we are talking of 5,500 to 6,000 acres located so centrally as to be almost beyond belief in what many would say was the greatest city in the world; and here, at the one time, is a problem and a fantastic opportunity. The bottle is half full; it is not half empty. It is how you look at it. Yes, for years there have been attempts—courageous and well-meant attempts—to do better, and they have made it better, but if we go on at the rate we are, with this 5,500 to 6,000 acres, how long will it take at the present rate, with the present resources and with the present input of effort that is being made? It cannot in any way compare with what we are talking of doing; and the very fact that we are talking of really scarce resources—and, my goodness! how scarce they are today—alone shows the importance that we attach to it.
Of course, it must have an impact. The noble Lord, Lord Evans, said, "All right; you may indeed make these areas good, but what about the other areas?". It will not do. The last Government, of all Governments, centred their urban programme upon concentrated areas of deprivation and dereliction because they felt that in that way it would be seen that there could be uplift—and there is much evidence to show that when one area is uplifted it uplifts those around it—and it would have a considerable impact. I think that the debate here today is not so much about whether it is desirable but, first, whether it would succeed and, secondly, whether it is better than what we have at the moment. That is really what it is about. It truly is not a political matter, as I see it. It is really a matter of achievement, because everybody wants to see these areas upgraded. It would be a delight to everybody in your Lordships' House if we were able to say, "What a success they are."
If I sound enthusiastic about it, then it is because I believe in it. It would be so easy, at this time, to do nothing; to say, "They are getting on with it, they are trying." That would be the easiest thing to do, but it would not be the responsible thing to do and I do not really believe it is what your Lordships would want us to do. Because of this, I commend to your Lordships the whole of the endeavour upon which we are now embarked,
1218
and I ask your Lordships, please, to support this because it is truly worthy of support. As to the amendments, I would ask your Lordships not to make minor alterations to whittle down the powers that we seek and that we need to do it. This is a bold and courageous attempt to do something. I commend it to your Lordships, and I ask for the support of the Committee.
8.49 p.m.
Lord UNDERHILL: I appreciate, and I am certain all members of the Committee will admire, the enthusiasm with which the noble Lord, Lord Bellwin, has presented his case. But equally, I am convinced that if we had the leaders of the Joint Dockland Committee here they would speak with the same enthusiasm and with more knowledge of the area, and would convince your Lordships of the work which has to be done and how they are getting on with it. I should like to know precisely the information on which the Secretary of State was able to base his decisions before the proposal to have the UDC. I am talking now about London's dockland; the noble Lord, Lord Evans, can deal with Liverpool. What information did he have? How many visits were made before the proposal was originally made? What consultations were there with the DJC and the authorities before the decision was taken? What detailed study was there of all the problems? Or was it a question of saying, "This is the answer; and, as we go along, we will find justification for it"? It is that which appears to have been done.
Reference has been made to the fact that this is a better instrument. I was brought up in the borough next door to Newham. I never had the honour of representing it. I live now not too far away in north-east London. There are five London boroughs; and the Greater London Council, as the authority, is involved in the Docklands Joint Committee. It has been suggested that this is unwieldy. But these are the same bodies that dealt with all the problems arising from the bombing and the blitz in east London; and they got over those problems. I agree that there are differences before they get ahead wth the actual proposals.
I hope that in a few words I shall be able to convince your Lordships that a

1219
lot of work is being done, a lot of planning is already under way, and that a dislocation now, far from improving the situation might hold up all the plans which are under way. It has been said that an exceptional cost is involved, and the noble Lord has told us of the money that would be available. I must ask a simple question. If the money could be available to the UDC why can it not be available to the DJC and also to Merseyside? That is a simple question which requires a simple answer.
We have been told time and time again by the noble Lord—and I know that he means it, as do his noble friends who supported him—that we should have confidence in local government. That has been said in every debate on this bill. Yet we will not have confidence in local government on this particular issue. And why not? I hope to convince some of your Lordships that leaving this matter to the elected people would be better than implanting people who are not yet fully aware of all the problems and have yet to be made cognisant of the problems which exist in the area.
Reference has been made to the new towns, but I believe that the noble Lord and the Notes on Clauses confirm that argument. As the noble Lord has said, these are not green field areas as were most of the new towns. Also the new towns had to go through a detailed public inquiry procedure before the areas were designated. Here we have five well-established boroughs which, in many spheres, have been outstanding in their local authority work. One must say that the local representatives are responsible—and I believe these are Lord Bellwin's own words—to their electors, to their communities and to their ratepayers. So are those who make up the Docklands Joint Committee; and they are being pushed on one side as if they had no responsibility and no accountability to their electors.
So far as I am aware, London's dockland boroughs and the DJC have been taking every possible step—and this has caused some delay—to consult the people living in the area. There is the big plan for the Surrey Docks. I understand that there was a consultation document and that they insisted on consulting the
1220
community on what was to be done. It was not "Big Brother" saying, "This is what will be done in your particular area". As my noble and learned friend Lord Elwyn-Jones said, a few of us spent a few hours—and it would be foolish to say that we saw everything that was being done—on a tour through these areas. With my own eyes I saw something of what was being done.
When reference is made to collaboration with the property developers, I ask: who is putting up the News International Building in London's docks, a £7 million scheme?—the developers. Who is putting up the big industrial estate at Beckton?— the property developers with the full support, encouragement and assistance of the Docklands Joint Committee. Time does not allow me to do it but I should like to tell your Lordships of these things and to run through all the schemes that we have seen, schemes which have been started or are under way or for which contracts have been decided; time will not allow this.
I should like to ask a few questions. Will the strategic plan be scrapped by the UDC? Years of work have gone into this, work by planning experts. We met some of them from the five dockland boroughs. All their experts have put effort into this. Is it to be scrapped? If not, then that is one point against the UDC taking over. If the strategic plan is to be scrapped and if they are to start all over again, that will be an enormous waste of time—and yet we are told that there is urgency in this situation. I am sure the noble Lord the Minister has seen the same plans as I have seen—very bold, very ambitious. They fit in with the needs of the community. They are not just bricks-and-mortar plans but are bringing in green fields and planting trees in areas that have never seen trees before. There are community centres, town centres. All these are planned and developed and are coming forward in development plans.
The local councillors know their people; they know their areas; they know what the community wants and with all the assistance that the Government can give them, I am convinced that these bodies could more satisfactorily do the job, because of their accountability to their people, of building up not merely a

1221
bricks-and-mortar area but one that also will bring a good environment to the people of this area who have never had it before, due really to the ravages of past private enterprise which left them with a mess.
Resolved in the affirmative, and Clause 122, as amended, agreed to.
9.4 p.m.
Clause 123 agreed to.
Schedule 23 [Urban Development Corporations]:
Lord BELLWIN Lord BELLWIN moved Amendment No. 258:
8.57 p.m.
On Question, Whether Clause 122, as amended, shall stand part of the Bill?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 83; Not-Contents, 39.
Page 202, line 24, leave out ("made by statutory instrument") and insert ("under section 123 above").

CONTENTS

Avon, E.

Gowrie, E.

Mountevans, L.

Bellwin, L.

Grafton, D.

Mowbray and Stourton, L.

Belstead, L.

Halifax, E.

Murton of Lindisfarne, L.

Boardman, L.

Hanworth, V.

Netherthorpe, L.

Boyd-Carpenter, L.

Harvey of Tasburgh, L.

Northchurch, B.

Brabazon of Tara, L.

Harvington, L.

Nugent of Guildford, L.

Brougham and Vaux, L.

Hatherton, L.

Orkney, E.

Caithness, E.

Holderness, L.

Orr-Ewing, L.

Carr of Hadley, L.

Hornsby-Smith, B.

Rawlinson of Ewell, L.

Carthcart, E.

Hylton-Foster, B.

Redesdale, L.

Cockfield, L.

Inglewood, L.

Reigate, L.

Colvilleof Culross, V.

Ironside, L.

Rochdale, V.

Cork and Orrery, E.

Kemsley, V.

Rodney, L.

Craigavon, V.

Keyes, L.

St. Aldwyn, E.

Craigmyle, L.

Killearn, L.

Sandford, L.

Croft, L.

Kilmarnock, L.

Sandys, L. [Teller.]

Cullen of Ashbourne, L.

Kinnaird, L.

Selkirk, E.

De Freyne, L.

Long, V.

Sempill, Ly.

De La Warr, E.

Lyell, L.

Strathclyde, L.

Denham, L. [Teller.]

Mackay of Clashfern, L.

Strathcona and Mount Royal, L.

Digby, L.

Macleod of Borve, B.

Swansea, L.

Drumalbyn, L.

Margadale, L.

Trefgarne, L.

Elliot of Harwood, B.

Marley, L.

Trumpington, B.

Ferrers, E.

Marshall of Leeds, L.

Vaux of Harrowden, L.

Gainford, L.

Middleton, L.

Vernon, L.

Gibson-Watt, L.

Minto, E.

Vickers, B.

Gisborough, L.

Monk Bretton, L.

Young, B.

Glenarthur, L.

Morris, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Avebury, L.

Hatch of Lusby, L.

Sainsbury, L.

Balogh, L.

Houghton of Sowerby, L.

Simon, V.

Brooks of Tremorfa, L.

Jeger, B.

Stedman, B. [Teller.]

Bruce of Donington, L.

Llewelyn-Davies of Hastoe, B. [Teller.]

Stewart of Alvechurch, B.

Cledwyn of Penrhos, L.

Stewart of Fulham, L.

Collison, L.

McCluskey, L.

Stone, L.

David, B.

Maelor, L.

Taylor of Gryfe, L.

Davies of Leek, L.

Milner of Leeds, L.

Underhill, L.

Ellenborough, L.

Mishcon, L.

Wallace of Coslany, L.

Elwyn-Jones, L.

Peart, L.

Walston, L.

Evans of Claughton, L.

Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.

Whaddon, L.

Galpern, L.

Rochester, L.

Winstanley, L.

Hale, L.

Ross of Marnock, L.

Young of Dartington, L.

Hampton, L.

The noble Lord said: This is a technical amendment. It makes it clear that the Secretary of State may prescribe the number of members of a UDC in the main constitution order made under Clause 123. The Bill as drafted does not contain any provision for the procedure for orders to be made under paragraph 1 of the schedule. Clearly it is important to define the

1223
particular instrument and this will most appropriately be the order under Clause 123 establishing the UDC. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord EVANS of CLAUGHTON Lord EVANS of CLAUGHTON moved Amendment No. 258A:
Page 202, line 32, leave out sub-paragraph (3) and insert—
("(3) The Secretary of State shall appoint not less than four members of the Corporation from members of the local authority or authorities in whose areas the urban development corporation is or will be situated, two of those members being appointed from the minority groups on those local authorities.").
The noble Lord said: This is an attempt to persuade the Government, not to democratise (a terrible word, for which I apologise) the composition of the corporation, but to try to make it a little more sensitive to local opinion. To take the Merseyside UDC-designate the chairman is a very distinguished and respected industrialist who has a very large number of other responsibilities. The deputy chairman is the chairman of the Merseyside County Council, and we do not know yet who the other members will be. It seems to me from my inquiries that there will be one member from the County Council, Sir Kenneth Thompson, who is the leader of the Council and chairman of the County Council, which is obviously fair enough. I will be one member of the Wirral Borough Council because it is the district authority on the Wirral side which is within the UDC area which is Conservative controlled. So that will be two Conservatives. Then there will be one representative from the city council which has no control, but since the Liberals are running it, presumably a Liberal from the city council.
So there is an area which, much to my dismay, has a very large element of Labour support without a single member of the UDC representing local government Labour attitudes in the Merseyside area. That is why I thought, as a device for trying to ensure a little more representative taste to the corporation, that this amendment by requiring the four members of the corporation to be members of the local authority, and that opposition groups shall be represented, might do something to make the corporation more acceptable, responsive and generally more understanding of the problems of the locality. That
1224
is the reason, since we are going to have urban development corporations whether we want them or not, to try to make them a little more acceptable to those who do not believe in the concept anyway. I beg to move.
Lord PONSONBY of SHULBREDE: The amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Evans of Claughton, has been tailored to meet the particular situation in Merseyside, and while the principle of the amendment is something which we wholeheartedly support—that there should be members of the local authorities appointed to the urban development corporation—the particular figures included in the amendment, while they might be applicable to an area such as Liverpool, would find great difficulty in being accepted in areas such as the dockland boroughs.
The proposal is that the four members should be appointed from the local authorities concerned, of whom two should be members from minority groups on those authorities. I think that most of your Lordships know that the political complexion of the local authorities in the docklands areas tends to be overwhelmingly Labour and indeed on occasion some local authorities concerned have 100 per cent. Labour representation. In those circumstances it would be difficult in any way to justify a 50–50 representation between minority and majority groups on those councils. Therefore, I am afraid I cannot support the noble Lord in the terms in which he has tabled his amendment; but the general principle of his amendment, that local authorities should have direct representation on urban development corporations, is one to have support.
Lord BELLWIN: Both the principles and the mechanics involved in the amendment present serious problems. There is every intention on the part of the Government to ensure that people with local knowledge and experience serve on the boards of the UDCs, and indeed witness the appointments that we have been talking about earlier, such as those of Bob Mellish, Sir Kenneth Thompson, as deputy chairmen of the two shadow UDCs. There can be no question of tying the membership irrevocably to a particular mix of local party politics in an area, as the amendment seeks to do.

1225
Our principle is to ensure that the local authorities are consulted about people with local knowledge. That is not necessarily the same as appointing a statutory minimum of existing local authority members. In the event, however, the kind of membership envisaged in the amendment actually may well arise, but that must be based on the people they are and not necessarily on their party affiliations. On the mechanics, the amendment presents a relatively rigid formula of the kind that may be suitable for one UDC, but not for another. We must remember that this is general legislation and the cardinal principle, therefore, must be to allow sufficient flexibility for the most appropriate board membership to be selected for each UDC. The requirement that the Secretary of State consults each local authority as appears to him to be concerned in the area ensures adequate safeguard for the interests of local authorities. Just on the instance given by the noble Lord, Lord Evans, the noble Lord, Lord Sefton, is a Labour Member, and I understand he is very much involved. I do not know if he is, or is to be, a member of the Merseyside one: I should have thought it was a possibility. He may indeed be one. I know that he is enthusiastic about the idea.
I do not think there is very much that I can add. This is not an amendment that we can accept. We are concerned here that, of course, there must be close consultation with the local authorities, as the people on the spot because without that life would be very hard and nobody who was worth his salt in chairing a UDC would want not to work as closely as he could with the local authority associations. However, at the end of the day the board must be made up, by all means, of local authority members but also of the people who are most suitable to do this job. That is what we want to see and that is why we cannot accept the amendment.
Lord EVANS of CLAUGHTON: I did not really expect the amendment to be accepted in the precise words in which I had put it down and indeed your Lordships may even say that the words were not very precise. It is a point that I really wanted to bring out, and I thought there was a splendid irony that in the London dockland area where, as the noble Lord,
1226
Lord Ponsonby, said, nearly every member of the local authority is Labour, in the Merseyside area, on the basis of local authorities on Merseyside appointing representatives, there would not be a single Labour Member appointed at all. I suppose it is probably quite good medicine for the Labour Party to realise that this is what was happening to the Liberals for far too long and we are trying to change it. I should have hoped that Tower Hamlets, where we have strong Liberal representation, would be an area where we were able to offer something towards the London dockland urban development corporation.
What really concerns me is that I should not want any urban development corporation to be dominated by one political party as opposed to another, when there were two or three other parties with strong local support. The noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, understands that point and I think that the noble Lord, Lord Bellwin, does. In such a situation, an atmosphere of even greater resentment would be created against the new corporation if it were weighted towards one political party. Having made that point, I shall try as graciously as possible to beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
9.15 p.m.
Lord UNDERHILL Lord UNDERHILL moved Amendment No. 259:
Page 204, line 28, at end insert—
(". An urban development corporation shall be subject to the provisions of the Public Bodies (Admissions to Meetings) Act 1960.").
The noble Lord said: This amendment seeks to have meetings of urban development corporations open to the public and press, in accordance with the provisions of the 1960 Act. It must be kept in mind that the urban development corporations will take over considerable functions from local authorities in particular areas and, were it not for the establishment of the UDC, meetings of the local authority to deal with just those functions would come within the provisions of the 1960 Act. Why, therefore, should the powers not continue with regard to meetings of the UDCs? The UDCs will be public bodies and the 1960 Act covers public bodies, in addition to local authorities, so there is

1227
every reason why UDCs should be treated similarly.
It is not only the provisions concerning attendance of the public at meetings with which we are concerned, but also the necessity to give public notices of meetings and to supply on request to any newspaper copies of the agenda, together with relevant documents; also, that members of the public who may attend the meetings shall be supplied with the agenda and relevant material. I understand—and I hope that this is correct—that the present dockland joint committee holds meetings in public and that those meetings are reported.
Mr. King, the Minister for Local Government, said at column 869 of the Official Report for the Standing Committee of 7th May:
"The matter is at present covered in paragraph 13 of Schedule 23, which leaves it to a corporation to determine the arrangements relating to a meeting".
Paragraph 13 of the schedule reads:
"The quorum of the corporation and the arrangements relating to its meetings shall, subject to any direction given by the Secretary of State be such as the corporation may determine".
I am certain that many noble Lords will agree that this is not good enough. The Government of the day thought that it was not good enough for the public bodies; otherwise, we should not have had the 1960 Act. Therefore, why should the urban development corporations not come within it? The 1960 Act provides that a public body may, by resolution, exclude the public from a public meeting whenever publicity would be prejudicial to the public interest. So there is a safeguard, if that is something with which the corporations or the Government may be concerned.
I hope it will be agreed that it is not sufficient to leave this great principle merely to the urban development corporations to decide. As we believe in our democratic institutions, in accountability and in open government, I hope that the Government will accept this harmless but important amendment. I beg to move.
Lord BELLWIN: There is no requirement upon new town development corporations to admit the public to their meetings, and we see no reason why there should
1228
therefore be any special requirement upon the UDCs so to do. That does not mean to say that UDCs would operate in isolation from the public or from the elected authorities. In this context, it is the Government's intention to table a new clause to the Bill which would require a UDC to prepare a code of practice as to consulting with the relevant local authorities about the exercise of its powers.
The Government are also making provision, under a new clause tabled after Clause 2 to the Bill, for UDCs to be required to publish such information as may be required by the Secretary of State. One could talk a lot about this subject and it is easy to make it sound emotive. As I said earlier, one could nit-pick away at the basis of the proposals in all kinds of ways. But, at the end of the day, the fact is that the whole idea will be judged on what it achieves.
I hope noble Lords will accept this. On this side I think we very much like it. I suspect that on the opposite side there are more who like it than may have voted against it. But at least let us all say that the end objectives are what we all want to see. At least let us give it a try; do not let us try to inhibit its workings in any way. I hope that the noble Lord, who is always so reasonable in these matters, will feel able not to press the amendment at this time.
Lord ELWYN-JONES: When the Minister and the Secretary of State are considering the code of practice, I wonder whether they would consider the possibility of enabling the authority, if it thinks fit, to sit in public; in other words, giving it discretion to allow the admission either of members of the public or of those concerned. So far the Minister has spoken merely of the intention to consult, but perhaps he will consider that point when the code of practice is being drafted.
Lord BELLWIN: I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord for what he has said. Yes, we will consider that point of discretion.
9.22 p.m.
Lord ROSS of MARNOCK: I wonder whether the Minister appreciates that we

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are dealing now with something very different from new towns. Most of the new towns, except one that I know of in Scotland, are on green field sites. There will be virtually a new authority overlapping and taking powers from existing authorities. I am sorry that there is no Scottish Minister on the Front Bench. The new town that I am thinking of is that which virtually took over two royal burghs and also part of a county council; namely, the new town of Irvine. Irvine was one of the oldest local authorities in Scotland. Kilwinning, too, had a very considerable record of service. The new town embraces the whole area. The town councils existed alongside them. I can assure the noble Lord the Minister that it was not all that easy to get a measure of co-operation. Eventually it came, but sporadically differences arose in respect of these matters.
It would be much more helpful if meetings were held in public, bearing in mind that many of the functions which were taken over were discussed in public by the existing authorities. The Minister should not brush this away quite so readily and quite so easily. I have had plenty of experience of appointments to new towns. A great deal has been said about Quangos; the Minister himself has had a few remarks to make about them. I do not know whether there will be any in Scotland—so far as I know this is purely academic—but this part, with certain exceptions, applies to Scotland. Therefore, I ask him to think again about it.
I know that the Minister has probably been hauled over the coals for promising to think again, and so on. His eyes are going to be worn out before we finish the Report stage of the Bill. I know the pressure that he is under, but I think that the Minister could have accepted this amendment without any loss of face. I know that he is worried about accepting any amendment because of what will happen elsewhere, but we are not responsible for the Government's timetable and the difficulties in which they have placed themselves. Our task is to try to make more sense of this Bill. I shall say a word or two later about how I, as a Scotsman, feel about the Bill. I believe that it would be sensible to accept the amendment.
Lord UNDERHILL: The noble Lord the Minister said that there was no
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requirement for a new town to carry out the terms of the 1960 Act; therefore why should an urban development corporation? I could reply that other public bodies which are listed in the 1960 Act do; therefore why should not the urban development corporation? His answer was not sufficient. I am sorry that the Minister thought that I was nit-picking. My point was that which my noble friend Lord Ross of Marnock has just made: that there are powerful existing local authorities in the area. If we want it, as I hope we all do, to work closely with the new corporation when it is set up, we need to build up the utmost amount of confidence, and public meetings of this body would help to do that. I am certain that everyone in the Committee will wish the urban development corporation well when it is set up. Our view is that it is unnecessary, but when it is set up of course we are not going to sabotage its work because that would be interfering with the lives of the people in whom all of us have a keen interest.
As my noble friend Lord Ross says, there will be considerable functions which, but for the urban development corporation, would be discussed in public, because the corporation will be taking over vast functions which the local authority would normally have and would discuss in public. It is obvious that the Minister feels he cannot move on this. I am very sorry because I think it is a simple matter which could be accepted. Everybody would applaud acceptance because it would be a further step towards building up this confidence and open government. I can only hope that the code of conduct will be sufficiently wide to assist in these directions. In the circumstances, I very much regret that I have no alternative but to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Schedule 23, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 124 [Objects and general powers]:
9.26 p.m.
Lord PONSONBY of SHULBREDE Lord PONSONBY of SHULBREDE moved Amendment No. 260:
Page 103, line 20, at end insert ("other than that owned by a local authority unless by agreement of that authority").
The noble Lord said: We are now turning to Clause 124, which deals with the question of powers. The noble Lord, Lord Bellwin, in a very impassioned speech a few minutes ago on Clause 122, urged the Committee that whatever else it did on this section of the Bill it should support Clause 122, which the Committee did. However, in making those remarks, he indicated that the Government might be taking a much more flexible view as to the powers of an urban development corporation. Indeed, he seemed to indicate that he would not be unduly perturbed if the Committee decided to whittle down some of the power. When the Minister made those remarks on Clause 122 I hoped he was going to adopt a flexible attitude towards the series of amendments which follow, all of which deal with the question of powers of the urban development corporation.
Amendment No. 260 deals with the power of the urban development corporation to acquire land. It stipulates that the corporation shall get the agreement of a local authority to any land which it wishes to acquire from a local authority. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Elwyn-Jones, referred very eloquently to our trips around the dockland area and our views on what was happening. One can imagine the situation of a local authority having within the UDC area sites earmarked for future development as schools, to give an example. The local authority would be most unwilling to surrender those sites for the purposes of the urban development corporation, and, indeed, would feel that it needed to have the right to retain a particular site if it wished to do so. Therefore, this amendment is stipulating that the urban development corporation must get the agreement of the local authority before acquiring a particular site. I beg to move.
Lord BELLWIN: Just to set the record straight, I do not recall saying that I did not mind if powers were to be whittled away. I think I should have said exactly the opposite. In fact, I made an impassioned appeal to noble Lords opposite, please not to try to whittle away the powers but to give it a chance to show what it can do. That is why I hoped that noble Lords opposite would not press any of these amendments.
Lord ELWYN-JONES: I find that intervention very disappointing. I think following my speech the noble Lord said, on some question of powers, there might be a willingness to meet some of our suggestions where it was thought that the powers had gone too far. Now he says that he said nothing of the kind; on the contrary, perhaps the powers were not strong enough. Will he look at Hansard and perhaps come back chastened to discover that even he for once has made a grave error?
The MINISTER of STATE, MINISTRY of DEFENCE (Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal): My noble friend is a very flexibly minded man but he is also clear that he has got to have the powers that the UDCs require and I have to say that this amendment is seen by the Government as being effectively a wrecking amendment. This would subtract from the UDCs certain powers which they must have. It would mean that the local authority would have the ability totally to frustrate the UDCs should they so wish. It has been said time and time again, and I fear it will be said many more times this evening, that it is hoped that the UDCs will co-operate with the local authorities, but one cannot hand over to the local authorities the power to wreck the purpose of the UDCs, and this amendment would do that. I hope the Committee will not accept it.
Lord PONSONBY of SHULBREDE: I have noted the remarks of the noble Lord. It is not my intention to press this particular amendment to a Division. I understand the point which he makes, that this could cause grave problems to a particular plan of the UDC, but, on the other hand, I feel also that it is necessary to protect the aspirations of the local authorities in particular areas and I will look at his remarks and see whether there might be some more appropriate amendment which could be submitted at report stage. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendment No. 261 not moved.]
9.34 p.m.
Lord PONSONBY of SHULBREDE Lord PONSONBY of SHULBREDE moved Amendment No. 262:

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Page 103, line 21, leave out ("and other operations").
The noble Lord said: With this amendment I should like to speak to Amendments 263 and 264. These amendments also deal with the powers of an urban development corporation and I hope the noble Lord who is to reply will not see any of this series of amendments as being wrecking amendments. The proposal in these particular amendments is to restrict the powers of an urban development corporation to the particular powers which it requires. This amendment seeks to delete the words "and other operations", and Amendments Nos. 263 and 264 seek to delete subsections (d) and (e) which will restrict it from
"carrying on any business or undertaking for the purposes of the object; and
"generally [to] do anything necessary or expedient for the purposes of the object or for purposes incidental to those purposes".
These are powers on top of the powers which are given to the urban development corporation in the clause.
Indeed, as the clause is framed at the present time, an urban development corporation has, in our view, very arbitrary unfettered powers and it is of course entirely unaccountable to the local community. It would even allow an urban development corporation to demolish, without having any control at all, buildings which were likely to be listed as being of historic interest. It seems that these powers are too extreme. I beg to move the amendment to restrict them in the ways indicated.
Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYAL: With the agreement of the Committee, I too will speak to the three amendments. I totally understand the attitude that the noble Lord is taking. I have served in Opposition and I am sure I would be taking a very similar line. I agree with him that in principle Governments should not be given more powers than are absolutely necessary to do the things which one conceives they should do. I believe, however, that these powers are necessary. I do not believe that they are dangerous. We have a precedent for demonstrating that, because all these powers are lifted from the New Towns Act. He will find that through many of these amendments this is something which we will mention time and time again.
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The question of listed buildings is something that comes up under a later amendment. I do not think that he needs to address that particular problem at the present time. If I may give an example on this amendment—if one omitted the words, "other operations", as he would have one do, it means, for example, that the UDC's could not carry out operations other than building operations. It would mean that they could not even dredge a dock. It might even be that they could not fill in a dock. In the areas that we are talking about, these are things which they manifestly will have to do.
Regarding the third amendment, one understands the noble Lord's reservations. I say, in the presence of the noble and learned Lord an ex-Lord Chancellor, that we are concerned that it should not be possible that the vires of these corporations can be challenged. This is why the third amendment also has to be resisted. The safeguard that the noble Lord should bear in mind, however, is that the Bill says, "for the purposes of the Act", which is important. It means that these things can be done only for the purposes for which the Bill is being passed. I am sorry to tell the noble Lord that I have to advise the House to resist the first of these three amendments.
Lord PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE: My Lords, I would not press this amendment to a Division. I feel that the powers are stronger than are necessary. I also feel that the analogy drawn by the Minister, which he rightly says goes throughout these various powers from the New Towns Act, is not a true analogy. A new town is an entity established very largely on a green field site. It is not an entity in a decaying urban area, as is the intention here. A great many principles and ideas do not apply. This particular clause is a good example of that. Although I do not agree, I do not intend to press this amendment.
Amendment by leave withdrawn.
[Amendment No. 263 not moved.]
[Amendment No. 264 not moved.]
9.39 p.m.
Lord EVANS of CLAUGHTON Lord EVANS of CLAUGHTON moved Amendment No. 264A:
Page 103, line 28, at end insert—
"( ) Without prejudice to the generality of paragraphs (a) to (e) above an urban development corporation may enter into agency arrangements with any local authority for the purpose of achieving the object.".
The noble Lord said: I need not detain the Committee long on this amendment. The noble Lord the Minister was kind enough to draw my attention to an amendment that the Government have put down, numbered 279. My concern here was that, despite the fact that the urban development corporations had not yet the legitamacy of legislation, discussions have been taking place between the local authorities, the chief executive designate of the urban development corporations, and the Department of the Environment on the subject of local authority services to the urban development corporation. It is the argument of the Merseyside County Council that if the urban development corporation utilises, as we believe it will, the local authority's professional and other services it is only equitable that the local authority should be reimbursed accordingly. I think the noble Lord the Minister may be able to reassure me that his Amendment No. 279 does that, in which case I will be able to withdraw, I am sure much to your Lordships' relief, Amendments Nos. 264A and 265C, D and E. I beg to move.
Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYAL: I am grateful to the noble Lord. We were slightly doubtful as to what the exact intention of the noble Lord's amendment was, and I do believe that No. 279 covers most of the points he has raised. I suggest that I check the specific question he has asked me and perhaps we can come back to it when we get to No. 279. If I am going to give him a categorical assurance, I want to make certain that I get it right. As far as the other part of the amendment is concerned, we do not believe that any additional provision is needed to enable the UDC to enter into arrangements in connection with the provision of goods and services. We think the UDCs have the necessary powers. Rather what is needed is a provision to enable local authorities to enter into agency arrangements with the UDCs, which I believe is the noble Lord's point. I think he will find that it is satisfactorily covered when we get to the later amendment.
Lord EVANS of CLAUGHTON: The point the noble Lord the Minister makes is absolutely right. It does not apply, as I thought originally—and I spent hours contemplating this—to my Amendments Nos. 265A and B, but I think it does apply to Nos. 264A and 265C, D and E. In any event if he cannot give me the assurance and the people at the local authorities are not satisfied, I can always bring it up, reluctantly, on Report. On these kind of terms, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
9.43 p.m.
Lord ELWYN-JONES Lord ELWYN-JONES moved Amendment No. 265:
Page 103, line 29, leave out subsection (4).
The noble and learned Lord said: This is a probing amendment in which we seek to know what is the purpose of this subsection. In considering subsection (3) we have seen the enormous width of the powers given to the UDC to "acquire, hold", et cetera "land and other properties"—no limit there—"carry out building and other operations"—no limit there—"seek to ensure the provision of water …and other services"—God knows what they might be !—"carry on any business or undertaking for the purposes of the object"—and the object, heaven knows! is wide enough—to secure the regeneration of the area. The subsection we are now looking at is:
"No provision of this Part of this Act by virtue of which any power is exerciseable by an urban development corporation shall be construed as limiting the effect of subsection (3) above".
This is painting the lily of powers with a vengeance. What is it for?
I do not take a great deal of comfort from the fact that in subsection (6) there is a provision in the second part that
"nothing in this section authorises such a corporation to disregard any enactment or rule of law …".
What a marvellous concession!
Lord ROSS of MARNOCK: Unless it is in this Part.
Lord ELWYN-JONES: Indeed, apparently unless it is in this Part. Perhaps the Minister can enlighen us as to what provisions in this Part of the Act which would be capable of being construed as

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limiting the effect of the subsection shall nevertheless be disregarded.
Then one looks at subsection (7), which is slightly alarming also:
"A transaction between a person and an urban development corporation shall not be invalidated by reason of any failure by the corporation to observe the object in subsection (1) …"—
namely, regeneration of the area, which is the object of the exercise. Supposing it goes off on a frolic of its own, to coin a legal phrase? Is that also going to be protected by the general words of these subsections? I think we need some reassurance about this, because it really is painting the lily. I beg to move.
Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYAL: In one sense I am glad that a lawyer moved this amendment, but in another I have to express some surprise. My understanding is that this is essentially a lawyer's point, and I have two courses: I can either read from what Lord Diamond used to call extensive notes or I can try to give a layman's summary of what I understand to be the situation. I propose to do the latter because I think it will take a little less time, but it may not convince the noble and learned Lord, who is an eminent lawyer.
We believe this amendment would be technically damaging to other parts on this Part of the Bill. Subsection (4) was added to the Bill by a Government amendment in another place because there was a need to clarify the effect of the specific powers contained in Part XVI on the general powers of UDCs under Clause 124, and we believe that this amendment would reintroduce the uncertainty which that amendment was introduced to eliminate.
My understanding of the situation—and this is where it becomes a lawyer's point—is that if you enumerate specific powers, and the list is not exhaustive, it can be used by the lawyers as a means of saying that because you have enumerated specific powers therefore the general powers do not exist. It is for this reason that we feel this amendment should be resisted, but I can give a longer explanation if the noble and learned Lord feels that he requires it.
Lord ELWYN-JONES: I do not want to subject your Lordships to a moot on
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this matter, especially a read-out moot, if I might say so without impertinence, but bearing in mind the considerable generality of the powers already in subsection (3) I frankly do not see the need for the width of the extension of it. One of the great dangers of executive power is to give an executive authority more power than it needs, because it has a terrible way, if I may dare to say so after 10 years of executive experience, of using powers. But would the Minister perhaps look at it again? It seems to me to be carrying the provision of powers really to excess.
Lord ROSS of MARNOCK: Before the Minister replies, I am not a lawyer, I am just a simple-minded Scot, and I read this subsection (4):
"No provision of this Part of this Act by virtue of which any power is exercisable by an urban development corporation shall be construed as limiting the effect of [these powers in] subsection (3) …".
Then I look at Clause 126, which is a provision within this Part of the Bill:
"Without prejudice to any provision of this Act requiring the consent of the Secretary of State to be obtained for anything to be done by an urban development corporation, he may give directions to such a corporation for restricting the exercise by it of any of its powers …".
Does subsection (4) permit the urban development corporation to, or does that power, invalidate Clause 126? It is said that nothing shall be construed as limiting their powers, and then we have Clause 126 deliberately calculated to restrict the exercise of their powers. It is all very strange, and I think if he was wise the noble Lord would take out subsection (4) and then there would be no conflict, even to my simple mind.
Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYAL: The noble Lord is very persuasive, but I have just explained that subsection (4) was specifically put in by the draftsmen because they deemed it to be necessary; and who am I to quarrel with the draftsmen? But, like noble Lords opposite, many is the time that I have read out incredible gobbledegook, as I see it, and it became the law of the land. I think the best thing for me to do in the circumstances, if noble Lords would agree, is to agree to write to them to try to convince them that the Government's case is a sound one, otherwise I think we would be detaining the Committee for

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some time while a layman tried to convince a lawyer, which I doubt would work.
Lord ELWYN-JONES: Perhaps we can return to this fascinating contest again. But, in the circumstances, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
9.50 p.m.
Lord EVANS of CLAUGHTON Lord EVANS of CLAUGHTON moved Amendment No. 265A:
Page 103, line 37, after ("expenditure") insert ("already").
The noble Lord said: For the convenience of your Lordships I ask that, in addition to this amendment, we should also consider Amendment No. 265B. This is not a lawyer's point, otherwise I suspect that I would not be here moving it. It is a very important financial point for the authorities that have previously held responsibility for what will be urban development corporation areas. The Merseyside County Council, and for all I wot the authorities in the London Dockland area, has done quite a lot of preparatory work towards the kind of needs that the urban development corporation will itself undertake. For instance, the Merseyside County Council authority approached the Mersey Docks and Harbour Company with a view to acquiring an interest in the Liverpool South Docks consisting of approximately 400 acres, for the purpose of regenerating this vast area of derelict and redundant docks which is an integral, and possibly the main, part of the proposed urban development corporation's area.
I need hardly tell your Lordships that a very considerable amount of preparatory work has been done in terms of drafting leases; negotiations; the work of very senior local authority officers; and considerable expenditure as regards the time and labour of officers and certain small expenditure as regards expenses and so on. It would seem to me, as it seems to those in the Merseyside County Council area—and I would say also in the London Dockland area—that it would be quite wrong that that kind of work, which will save the
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urban development corporation a very great deal of work itself, should not go unrewarded and that the work that was done before the setting up of the urban development corporation should be paid for by the urban development corporation once it is set up. That is the purpose of both amendments. I beg to move.
Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYAL: I hope that I can reassure the noble Lord. Here again the wording is very wide and has been based largely on the equivalent provision in the New Towns Act. However, I am advised that the present wording would enable the urban development corporation to contribute to expenditure incurred in the past and to expenditure incurred in negotiations for land. Therefore, I must resist these amendments simply on the grounds that they are not necessary. However, perhaps I should add one further comment. The power to contribute on the part of the urban development corporations is permissive. They would have the powers to contribute to expenditure and the merits of the individual cases would clearly weigh heavily with them when considering each case.
Lord EVANS of CLAUGHTON: I understand, therefore, that, under the legislation, the urban development corporations will have not the mandatory, but the permissive, right to pay for work that has earlier been done. I would hope that that would satisfy even the most predatory of existing local authorities. On that basis, and in the hope that I guess the intentions of the local authorities correctly, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendments Nos. 265B, 265C, 265D and 265E not moved.]
Clause 124 agreed to.
Clause 125 agreed to.
[Amendment No. 266 not moved.]
Clause 126 agreed to.
Clause 127 [Allocation or transfer of functions]:
9.57 p.m.
Lord UNDERHILL Lord UNDERHILL moved Amendment No. 267:
Page 105, line 25, at end insert ("and all local authorities with an interest in such a transfer of functions").
The noble Lord said: This is quite a simple matter. Subsection (4) of this clause provides that before making an order to provide for the transfer of functions from or to an urban development corporation or for the exercise of any functions by a corporation, the Secretary of State shall consult that corporation. That is obviously common sense. But that is all that the subsection states. There is no reference at all in this subsection to consulting local authorities. I would ask, why should they be ignored? The amendment simply seeks to provide that the Secretary of State shall also consult those local authorities which will have:
"an interest in such a transfer of functions";
and those last words:
"an interest in such a transfer of functions"
are quite important. This would seem to me to be fair and common sense, and I hope that the Government will see fit to accept this amendment.
Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYAL: The Government's objection to similar amendments which were put down to Clauses 122 and 123 was that a legal requirement to consult might lead to delay in making designation orders. It was thought that such a provision could constitute an unreasonable power to delay the establishment of the UDCs and, therefore, could be potentially frustrating.
However, the force of this argument is not so powerful in respect of the powers contained in this clause, and certainly the Government are willing to consider the noble Lord's amendment. But in undertaking to do that, I hope that the noble Lord will agree that, in spite of the reservations about the concept of UDCs, if we are to have them we want to make them work and we want to build in safeguards but we do not want to build in possibilities of frustration. Therefore, I would certainly
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agree to look at the noble Lord's amendment.
Lord UNDERHILL: I thank the noble Lord for that generous offer to look at this and I give him the assurances that he wants. We also want these to succeed, but we want them to succeed on proper lines. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 127 agreed to.
Clause 128 [Vesting by order in corporation]:
Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYAL Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYAL moved Amendment No. 268:
Page 105, line 37, at end insert (", statutory undertakers").
The noble Lord said: As presently worded I understand that there is some doubt as to whether all statutory undertakers are included in the term "public body" in line 38. It has always been the Government's intention that the non-operational land of all public bodies, including statutory undertakers, such as port authorities, should be capable of being vested in an order under Clause 128. This is a technical amendment to put the matter beyond doubt. I beg to move.
Lord EVANS of CLAUGHTON: I am in some difficulty in that my noble friend Lord Simon is not able to make the remarks that he would have liked to make resulting from the amendment that he moved some aeons ago, Amendment No. 215 in Schedule 13. It would be appropriate, in my submission, that the same arguments as my noble friend put forward at that point about:
"bodies corporate having capital which is divided into shares or stock"
should also be included in the terms of the amendment.
Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYAL: We are getting into deep technical waters. Is the noble Lord saying that he feels our amendment should go wider than it already does? If he is,

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certainly I shall look at that and see whether that is necessary.
Lord EVANS of CLAUGHTON: It would save me a great deal of embarrassment if the noble Lord were to look at it again and then my noble friend could explain the point at some further stage.
Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYAL: May I suggest that we agree the amendment in the meantime and that we undertake to come back if it needs further adjustment.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
10.1 p.m.
Lord UNDERHILL Lord UNDERHILL moved Amendment No. 269:
Page 105, line 45, at end insert ("or land which is vested in a local authority and held by them for a purpose for which planning consent has been given").
The noble Lord said: The noble Lord the Minister has just explained the purpose of Amendment No. 268, to include statutory undertakers in the provision that all public land within the area of a UDC shall be vested in the urban development corporation. We are now seeking this amendment because subsection (2) provides that the provisions to which I have referred shall exclude any land which is held by a statutory undertaker for the purpose of carrying on the work of the undertaker. We are seeking to add a further provision that
"… land which is vested in a local authority and held by them for a purpose for which planning consent has been given"
should also be excluded. It seems a fair exclusion, as is the one for the statutory undertakers.
Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYAL: I am sorry to have to tell the noble Lord that I have to resist the siren song of his logic. Again this is a slightly technical matter. I do not think that the situation of statutory undertakers is quite the same as that of local authorities. Certainly the effect of this amendment takes us back again to the situation whereby the local authorities would be in a position, if they so wished, to frustrate
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the operations of the UDC. The simple answer is that we do not suggest that they would necessarily wish to frustrate, but it would clearly be an unwise hostage to fortune to put them in a position where they could. That would be the effect of the noble Lord's amendment, and I have to resist it for this reason.
Lord UNDERHILL: I can assure the noble Lord that the purpose of this amendment is not in any way to frustrate the work of the development corporation. What we wish to do is to safeguard the future when the work of the urban development corporation is finished, because there will still be local authority work to carry through. Any land which is held and for which there has been planning consent may be vital to the work of that local authority after the work of the corporation is finished. In view of what the noble Lord the Minister has said, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 128, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 129 and 130 agreed to.
Clause 131 [Vesting and acquisition: supplementary]:
On Question, Whether Clause 131 shall stand part of the Bill?
Lord ROSS of MARNOCK: I had a point on Clause 129, but I shall let it go just now if the draftsman will have a look at subsections (5), (6) and (7). They are pretty haywire and could be amalgamated much more satisfactorily. I come to Clause 131. I have been trying hard to take an interest in this Bill from a Scottish point of view. Every time I see the word "Scotland" my heart leaps up and I go searching out.
Clause 131 deals with Schedule 24. Part I of the schedule applies to Scotland by implication anyway, so does Part II, and then we jump to Part IV. Not all of that applies to Scotland. Then it says, "Part V (which does not apply to Scotland)". So I raced to this schedule to find out about Part V. I do not know how many noble Lords have looked at it, but there is no Part V in the schedule.

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The Committee can imagine how much work this involved. If draftsmen and printers make mistakes, should not somebody spot them and arrange for an erratum slip to be inserted? The explanation may lie in the fact that in Clause 131 there is reference to Parts I and II and then we jump to Parts IV and V. Probably Part IV should be Part III and Part V should be Part IV. That is the only reasonable explanation I can think of. I see the noble Lord, Lord Boyd-Carpenter, immediately opposite me. He attacks Bills in more or less the same way as I do and will appreciate my concern. I am sure he has no interest in this business of Scotland—
Lord BOYD-CARPENTER: On the contrary.
Lord ROSS of MARNOCK:—and therefore this would not have attracted his notice. But I spent many hours on this. I looked at other copies of the Bill to see if I had a wrong copy. If it is a misprint and if a mistake has been made, why was it not spotted by somebody in the department? Perhaps this explains why the Scottish Ministers are not here; perhaps they are reading the Bill for the first time trying to spot a few more errors.
Lord BELLWIN: I do not know if there has been a misprint. As always, I listen with interest and facination to what the noble Lord, Lord Ross of Marnock, says and if the position is as he suggests, we welcome his drawing it to our attention and will be glad to make the necessary alteration. If it is not a misprint but is correct, I am sure he will know what to say at the next stage of the Bill.
Lord MISHCON: I rise with great hesitation, but we cannot take clauses in Committee in this half-hearted way. A Part V is mentioned here which is said not to apply to Scotland. How can a responsible Committee pass the clause when we do not even know whether there is a Part V which somehow or other has not been printed or whether Part V when printed is a mistake for Part IV? I could understand the Committee being asked to wait a few moments while somebody finds out whether the explanation given by my noble friend Lord Ross is right—I suspect it is—but surely we cannot pass
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a clause without knowing what are the parts to a schedule to which we are supposed to be referring.
Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYAL: I did not want to say this, but the noble Lord, Lord Ross of Marnock, claimed that he had spent many hours trying to find out what this was about. May I suggest to him that he could have saved himself and the Committee a lot of time if he had got in touch with us if he felt there was this error? If he spent many hours on it, he could have given us many hours' notice, so we could have dealt with this whole issue in a few seconds. I am not trying to defend having errors. This is a revising Chamber and the noble Lord is doing a jolly good job. He could have done even better had he given us a chance to put it right.
Lord BELLWIN: I understand that indeed it is a misprint; it should be Parts I, II, III and IV, and I am grateful to the noble Lord for drawing it to our attention. I have sympathy with the point that my noble friend raised, but it does not detract from the fact that the noble Lord is correct and that we should gratefully accept that fact.
Clause 131 agreed to.
10.9 p.m.
Lord GAINFORD Lord GAINFORD moved Amendment No. 270:
After Clause 131, insert the following new clause:
Disregard of actual or prospective development in urban development area
(".—(1) In the first and second columns respectively of Part 1 of the First Schedule to the Land Compensation Act 1961, after paragraph 4 there shall be inserted the following paragraph—

"5. Where any of the relevant land forms part of an area designated as an urban development area under Part XVI of the Local Government, Planning and Land Act 1980.

Development of any land in that area, other than the relevant land in the course of the regeneration, development or redevelopment of that area."

(2) In paragraph (b) of subsection (1) of section 6 of the said Act of 1961 for the words "paragraphs 2 to 4" there shall be substituted the words "paragraphs 2 to 5".
(3) Section 51 (compensation where land is in area designated as site of new town for purpose of public development) of the Land Compensation Act 1973 shall apply to and have effect for the purposes of this Part of this Act as if—

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(a) in subsection (1) of that section for the words from "proposes" to "new town" in the second place where those words occur, there were substituted the words "has made an order under section 122 (urban development areas) of the Local Government, Planning and Land Act 1980 designating any area of land as an urban development area", and as if the words "proposed to be" and", before making the order, "were omitted;

(b) in subsection (2) thereof for the words "paragraph 3 or 3A" there were substituted the words "paragraph 5" and as if the words "(cases where land acquired forms part of site of new town or extension of site of new town)" were omitted;

(c) subsection (3) thereof were omitted;

(d) the definition of "public development" in subsection (6) included a reference to development in the exercise of statutory powers by an urban development corporation or by a principal council for or in connection with the purposes of Part XVI. (urban development) of the Local Government, Planning and Land Act 1980.").

The noble Lord said: The Bill as drafted would not confer on local authorities or urban development corporations the ability to purchase land within the docklands or other urban development area at a price which discounts expected future gain or loss in value arising from the development action of the public authorities concerned. This power is available in the designated area of new towns and is important in two ways. First, it reduces the incentive to landowners, including public bodies, to hold on to land and sterilise it in the hope of later gain yet compensates them fairly. Secondly, it provides a means by which the public sector can obtain land at a reasonable price for both its own schemes and for joint schemes with private developers.
Subsections (1) and (2) of the proposed new clause would accordingly have the effect of extending the Land Compensation Act 1961 so that, in assessing compensation for the acquisition of land in an urban development area, there would be disregarded any increase, or decrease for that matter, in the value of the land resulting from the carrying out of development or the prospect of development being carried out.
In the Land Compensation Act 1961, Parliament has acknowledged that where an area is designated for some statutory purpose, the acquiring authority does not have to compensate the owner for that part of the value that arises from the status of the area. This principle has
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been extended by Section 51 of the Land Compensation Act 1973, which enables the Secretary of State to direct that any alteration in the value of land due to specified public development in the vicinity of a new town is generally to be discounted. Subsection (3) of the proposed new clause would have the effect of extending the provisions of the said Section 51 to an urban development area.
So far as London is concerned, it is considered that docklands should be regarded as a special case justifying the application of the provision that I have mentioned, because for the past decade it has been recognised by successive Governments as an area of special significance. The massive investment contemplated by the local authorities in connection with the area, as well as that of the proposed urban development corporation, could well have an effect on land values comparable to the designation of a new town, and compensation should be assessed accordingly. I beg to move.
Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYAL: I am grateful to the noble Lord for this amendment, which is a useful contribution to the problem of ensuring a fair valuation of land to be acquired by the UDCs. However, in fact it does not go quite far enough in dealing with the special situation of the urban development areas where development which could properly be regarded as part of the scheme underlying the compulsory acquisition has been, or is to be, carried out by other public authorities.
So in line with the promises made in another place, the Government have consulted with the organisation whose land might be vested in, or acquired by, the UDC, and we shall be tabling our own new clause which takes on board this amendment, but which goes somewhat further in dealing with the special urban development area situation. I hope that with that assurance the noble Lord will feel that he can trust us and so will withdraw his amendment.
Lord PONSONBY of SHULBREDE: All I wish to say is that I support what the noble Lord, Lord Gainford, has said. I was glad to hear the reply from the Government, and I am sure that we shall look forward to the amended clause to be tabled on Report.
Lord GAINFORD: I am most grateful to my noble friend the Minister, and on the basis of his assurances I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Schedule 24 [Urban Development Corporations: Land]:
10.14 p.m.
Lord EVANS of CLAUGHTON Lord EVANS of CLAUGHTON moved Amendment No. 270A:
Page 210, line 42, leave out paragraph 10.
The noble Lord said: This amendment concerns the matter that I mentioned in the earlier debate initiated by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Elwyn-Jones, about hybridity. Here is a clear example, so far as I can see, of instances where, as a result of this legislation, persons will be placed in a considerably less advantageous position than they were previously. It seems to me—and I hope that the noble Lord the Minister will correct this—that any person who is living as a tenant of a landlord in an area of an urban development corporation where the landlord sells that property to the urban development corporation, loses the protection of the Rent Acts and becomes a totally unprotected tenant; that is, as I say, if he or she has the misfortune to be a tenant of a landlord who has sold out to an urban development corporation. So far as I can see such a person is therefore left with much less protection than any other class of tenant in England and Wales. It seems to me that this is a very harsh and regressive measure, and that the Government, in order to justify this, will have to say to me a very great deal more than this part of the schedule indicates at the moment. I beg to move.
Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYAL: I must say frankly to the noble Lord that we have to resist this amendment. We believe it would seriously erode the effectiveness of the compulsory purchase powers of the UDCs, and their ability to assemble land and buildings for redevelopment—a point which we have touched on a number of times this evening. I hope the noble Lord will find it reassuring when I tell him that paragraph 10 is a standard power which applies to authorities with powers of compulsory purchase, and has done so for some time.
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There are equivalent provisions both in the New Towns Act 1965 (that is Section 22) and in the Town and Country Planning Act 1971 (that is Section 130). But even then there is a safeguard against vacant possession being obtained unnecessarily. The safeguard, as in other cases where powers like these are available, is that the Secretary of State must issue a certificate before vacant possession must be granted. There are no new provisions for UDCs implied in the present clause. To change it would therefore seem unwise and unnecessary.
Lord EVANS of CLAUGHTON: I understand that it is contained in other provisions. It seems a somewhat draconian measure in isolation. I would hope that the noble Lord the Minister could reassure me that if at any time a certificate was obtained and consequent upon that vacant possession was obtained against a tenant who was perfectly innocent—who was not in arrears with his rent and not in breach of his covenants—he would not be left with no alternative accommodation at all but would be rehoused, either by the urban development corporation or by one of the agencies used by the urban development corporation—the local authority, or whatever.
Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYAL: I am not sufficiently familiar with the experience of these Acts to be able to give the noble Lord an unequivocal assurance of that kind. I would say only two things. First, I deduce from the fact that these powers have existed for quite a long time without there having been an explosion that they must have proved reasonably satisfactory; and, secondly, what I will happily do for the noble Lord is discover exactly the detail of how this operates, what the experience has been, and let him know, in the hope that it will be satisfactory to him.
Lord EVANS of CLAUGHTON: I am grateful for that assurance, and on that basis I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Schedule 24 agreed to.
Clause 132 agreed to.
10.18 p.m.
Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYAL Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYAL moved Amendment No. 271:
After Clause 132, insert the following new clause:
("Planning blight
.—(1) Section 192(1) of the 1971 Act (scope of provisions about blight) and section 181(1) of the 1972 Act (which makes similar provisions for Scotland) shall have effect as if the land specified in them included land which—

(a) is land within an area intended to be designated as an urban development area by an order which has been made under section 122 above but which has not come into effect; or

(b) is land within an area which has been so designated by an order under that section which has come into effect.

(2) No blight notice shall be served by virtue of subsection (1)(a) above at any time after the order has come into effect.
(3) Until such time as an urban development corporation is established for the urban development area, sections 192 to 207 of the 1971 Act and sections 181 to 196 of the 1972 Act shall have effect in relation to land within subsection (1) above as if "the appropriate authority" and "the appropriate enactment" were the Secretary of State and subsection (4) below respectively.
(4) Until such time as aforesaid the Secretary of State shall have power to acquire compulsorily any interest in land in pursuance of a blight notice served by virtue of subsection (1) above; and where he acquires an interest as aforesaid, then—

(a) if the land is or becomes land within subsection (1)(b) above, the interest shall he transferred by him to the urban development corporation established for the urban development area; and

(b) in any other case, the interest may be disposed of by him in such manner as he thinks fit.

(5) The Land Compensation Act 1961 and, in relation to Scotland, the Land Compensation (Scotland) Act 1963 shall have effect in relation to the compensation payable in respect of the acquisition of an interest by the Secretary of State under subsection (4) above as if the acquisition were by an urban development corporation under this Part of this Act and as if, in the case of land within subsection (1)(a) above, the land formed part of the area designated as an urban development area by an order under section 122 above which has come into effect.").
The noble Lord said: This, I think, is the amendment we were referring to earlier when we were talking about protected buildings. I believe it was the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, who mentioned this. I hope that this new clause, which has been some time in gestation, will be welcomed. The purpose is to protect land and building owners who are
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affected by blight. I am sorry; I believe I am referring to the wrong thing in referring to protected buildings. This is the issue of blight, and it is an attempt to protect owners who are affected by blight as a result of the prospect of the designation of an urban development area or the proposals made by an urban development corporation once the UDA has been designated. This is a point which the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, alluded to in connection with highway planning early this morning, or it may have been late last night.
To achieve this, the clause applies the normal blight provisions in Sections 192 to 207 of the Town and Country Planning Act 1971 and the compensation provisions of the Land Compensation Act 1961. Until such time as the urban development corporation is established, the clause provides that the Secretary of State is to be the appropriate authority on whom blight notices would be served requiring him to purchase the blighted property. The Government consider that this provision is necessary in order to safeguard the interests of land owners in the areas of the proposed UDCs prior to the establishment of the UDC. Once the UDC is established, it is possible that the UDC, acting as the local planning authority, would need to acquire blighted land. Without this amendment, owners of blighted land would be unable to require any authority to purchase it. With that explanation I beg to move.
Lord PONSONBY of SHULBREDE: This amendment, No. 271, as the noble Lord has said—and I am not sure whether he was speaking to this amendment or to another amendment—had been for a long period in gestation. This amendment was tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Bellwin, on 26th September. It first saw the light of day, as far as other noble Lords were concerned, on 29th September. This was one week before the Committee stage of the Bill started. That was a comparatively early tabling of amendments compared with some of the other amendments which we are being asked to consider this evening. Many of the amendments before us this evening were tabled by the Government after the Committee stage of the Bill had started. Looking through today's Marshalled List, which is the fifth Marshalled List we have had,

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I notice that four of the amendments before us, No. 272A, No. 272B, No. 272C and No. 278C, have had their wording changed since the Marshalled List was published yesterday.
This places noble Lords in a very difficult position. With the time scale that we have been following on this Bill, it is quite impossible when amendments are tabled at this late stage to give proper consideration to them. I am referring particularly to the series of amendments (of which this is the first) which we are now considering and which are very detailed amendments. Quite frankly, I must say that my advisers have been putting in very long hours to advise us about the implications of various amendments on a day-to-day basis. I would remind noble Lords of what I think is only too well known. This is the sixth day of the Committee stage and we have been at it almost non-stop for those six days. In this situation it is really quite impossible at this point in time to give proper consideration to these amendments.
The noble Lord, Lord Bellwin, has been incredibly co-operative with noble Lords on this side of the Committee in supplying us with volumes of Notes on Clauses which we have found very useful indeed. But no notes have been supplied as yet—maybe they do not exist—on the full implications of the particular series of amendments which we are now about to consider. Therefore I do not intend to oppose any of the amendments at this stage but give notice that I may come back to each or all of these amendments at Report stage. These are technical amendments, and I hope that if there are Notes on Clauses the noble Lord, Lord Bellwin, can make them available two or three days before we are actually due to consider these amended clauses at Report stage.
Lord BELLWIN: To the best of my knowledge it is not normal to supply notes on amendments. We have tried to do so in this Bill because we have recognised its great complexity. Where we have had them we have gladly provided them. I will try to do what the noble Lord requests, if I have them. If I have not, I know that he will understand.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 133 [Planning control]:
10.26 p.m.
Lord EVANS of CLAUGHTON Lord EVANS of CLAUGHTON moved Amendment No. 271A:
Page 110, line 12, leave out ("so far as practicable").
The noble Lord said: For the convenience of the Committee I will take Amendment No. 271A in conjunction with Amendments Nos. 271B, C, D, E, F, G, H, and Amendment No. 272ZA. They are all to do with the responsibility for listed buildings being taken out of the control of the local authority, which have to give listed building consent for alterations, purchase, demolition and a host of other things. I say almost with trepidation that it extends to Scotland, as the noble Lord, Lord Ross of Marnock, will have noticed. It seems to me that the UDCs are being given powers in the various sections and schedules to which I will refer to take out of the control of local government the control of listed buildings and their protection from various problems that over the years in their wisdom the central Government have decided need protection.
The part of the world I conic from, Merseyside, is a prospective UDC area. There are a large number of listed buildings, first class buildings, buildings of exceptional architectural, historic and industrial archaeological interest. It disturbs me very much that the control of those buildings and the future of those buildings will be taken out of the planning control of the local authorities and transferred to the UDCs. Very often the immediate, short-term interests might be to demolish or in some way to change those buildings, whereas the long-term interest of the society in which those buildings are situated is that they should be preserved. Therefore, the reason why I have moved this series of amendments is to try to ensure that local government control over listed buildings, with all the various problems from which they suffer, should remain in local government hands. I beg to move.
Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYAL: I am sorry to tell the noble Lord that I have to resist all these amendments. So far as the first amendment is concerned, this is a straightforward, reasonably commonsense point as it exists in the Bill at the present time. It does not make

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sense to try to preserve something that it is not practicable to preserve. So far as the other group of amendments are concerned, we are back in the area that we have been in quite a number of times. All through this Bill we seek to give the UDCs adequate planning powers to pursue their objective of regenerating the area. We believe that Clause 133 provides the means by which the Secretary of State can grant planning permission to a UDC following consultation with the local authorities over proposals received from the UDC.
Clause 134 grants by order the necessary functions to a local planning authority to enable a UDC to grant planning permission in respect of applications received from others. So these are all powers which we consider to be essential for a UDC to have, bearing in mind the nature of the buildings and the land in the dockland areas. If a UDC is to be an effective agency it will need all the powers in the present Bill, and I therefore have to resist these amendments.
I think it is worth mentioning one further point. It is important to reiterate that we are not proposing to make the UDCs into plan-making authorities. We shall expect them to co-operate and consult with local planning authorities on strategic and other planning matters. What the Bill at present allows is merely to give the UDC an effective armoury of administrative development controls in order to aid in the process through which regeneration is to be achieved. I therefore urge the noble Lord to withdraw these amendments.
Lord EVANS of CLAUGHTON: It is a matter of profound sadness to me and if in fact the urban development corporation did set out on a course of major vandalism of the nature that I fear—for instance, the Albert Docks in Liverpool are a unique example, I understand, of 18th/19th century dockland architecture, and I am sure there are many examples of a similar kind in the London dockland area—I can only hope and believe that good sense and public opinion would prevent the urban development corporations from behaving in an irresponsible and regrettable way. I am sure that local authorities, even though they did not have the power to prevent them, would make life extremely difficult and uncomfortable
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for them, and that they would be very unco-operative if they did proceed along the lines—perhaps noble Lords may think extreme lines—that I think this gives them power to do. In the hope that the mere discussion of the matter might prevent people from going down that particular road, I will, with great reluctance, withdraw the amendment we are now considering and the other amendments which I moved with it, by leave.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 133 agreed to.
Clause 134 [Corporation as planning authority]:
10.34 p.m.
On Question, Whether Clause 134 shall stand part of the Bill?
Lord PONSON BY of SHULBREDE: This clause makes the urban development corporation the local planning authority. As we have indicated earlier this evening, we object to the principle of an urban development corporation in the way it is proposed to establish it. This particular clause transfers the planning powers of the local authorities concerned to the urban development corporation. If the proposal had been that a UDC should be set up by agreement with the local authorities concerned, then our attitude to this clause would be very different. We believe that the establishment of the urban development corporation should be a partnership between the Government and the local authorities.
I am particularly mindful of the fact that I was, at one time, what one might call chairman of a mini-urban development corporation—the Covent Garden joint development committee. That was a local authority joint development committee and it was operated jointly by the Greater London Council, the London Borough of Camden and the City of Westminster. The planning powers of each of the authorities concerned were ceded to the Covent Garden joint development committee, and that committee operated as the planning authority for that part of central London. It set in train the developments which have taken place there and the restoration of a very derelict area, which has been achieved over the

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past few years. That was a situation in which there was co-operation between the authorities.
I mention it only to show how there can be that kind of co-operation. These things can be achieved without having to establish the draconian powers which this Bill lays down. I have a very great belief and—I did not speak at length on Clause 122 stand part—in the validity of local enterprise. I believe that local authorities, being democratic bodies, often know what is best for an area, and that they are much more likely to know that than a central Government body. That is one of the reasons why this clause is a mistake. It is a mistake that these planning powers should be transferred from the local authorities to the urban development corporations. That is why I am moving that this clause does not stand part of the Bill.
Lord BELLWIN: I do not think I can add much to what I said earlier. This is a fundamental part of the proposals. We debated them fully and divided on them. They were accepted by the Committee and this part is equally fundamental. I have to ask that the clause does stand part.
Lord EVANS of CLAUGHTON: It goes almost without saying, in view of what I said on the whole list of amendments in my name, that I agree very much with the views expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby.
Clause 134 agreed to.
[Amendments Nos. 271B to 271F not moved.]
Schedule 25 agreed to.
Schedule 26 [Planning functions of Urban Development Corporations: Scotland]:
[Amendments Nos. 271G and 271H not moved.]
10.39 p.m.
Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYAL Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYAL moved Amendment No. 272:
Page 229, line 4, at end insert—
("Section 104 (compulsory acquisition of listed buildings in need of repair).
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Section 105 (repairs notice as preliminary to compulsory acquisition under s. 104).
Section 107 (minimum compensation in case of listed building deliberately left derelict).
Section 116 (management etc. of listed buildings acquired by local authority or Secretary of State).
Section 257 (application to local planning authorities of provisions as to listed buildings).
Section 262 (designation of conservation area).
Section 262A (control of demolition in conservation area).
Section 262B (formulation and publication of proposals for preservation and enhancement of conservation area).
Schedule 10 (control of works for demolition, alteration or extension of listed buildings).").
The noble Lord said: This is a case which will please the heart of the noble Lord, Lord Ross, in that here are some errors that we did spot, but I am sorry to see that he has left the Chamber. The references in this amendment were omitted from this schedule, and their insertion will bring the provision for Scotland into line with that for England and Wales as set out in Schedule 25. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
[Amendment No. 272ZA not moved.]
Schedule 26 agreed to.
Clause 135 [Building control]:
10.40 p.m.
Lord BELLWIN Lord BELLWIN moved Amendment No. 272A:
Page 112, line 36, leave out ("functions exercisable in a case where subsection (4) below applies,") and insert ("other than inner London, functions").
The noble Lord said: With this amendment may I also deal with Amendments Nos. 272B and 272C. These amendments do two things. First, they enable an order transferring building control functions to a UDC to provide that the London building legislation shall not have effect in the area to which the order relates. Under the present version of the clause, the London building legislation would be disapplied, whereas the amendments would enable the order to disapply the London legislation or not, depending on the terms of the order. Secondly, the amendment removes references to planning permission from the clause. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord BELLWIN Lord BELLWIN moved Amendments Nos. 272B and 272C:
Page 112, line 40, at end insert—
(" ( ) as regards inner London, functions exercisable under the London building legislation or, as the case may be, under or in connection with building regulations and any enactment relating to such regulations;").
Page 113, line 1, leave out from beginning to second ("building") in line 28 and insert—
(" ( ) An order under this section may provide that the London building legislation shall not have effect in the area to which the order relates but that").
On Question, amendments agreed to.
The DEPUTY CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES (Viscount Simon): Amendment No. 273?
Lord GAINFORD: Amendment No. 272C having been agreed to, this obliterates many of the subsections I was going to speak on regarding this amendment. Therefore it seems that I am unable to move it.
The DEPUTY CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES: That was not very clever of me! I was not told about that, but there it is.
[Amendment No. 273 not moved.]
Lord GAINFORD Lord GAINFORD moved Amendment No. 274:
Page 114, line 5, leave out subsection (11).
The noble Lord said: This amendment, which was to have been combined with Amendment No. 273, is almost a plea for the continuation of the operation of the London building Acts. Under the clause as it stands, the Secretary of State would be able to make an order removing building control functions from the relevant local authorities and conferring them on an urban development corporation. Building control in inner London is exercised under the London building Acts, 1930 to 1978 and the by-laws made thereunder. This is to a large extent enforced by semi-independent district surveyors, while in outer London, as in the rest of the country, the national building regulations apply.
The words of the amendment mean that if the Secretary of State made such an order it would automatically confer on the London urban development
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corporation the function of enforcing the national building regulations for the whole of its area in relation to new developments, including that part of its area which is in inner London. It is most undesirable that the present territorial division between these two systems of building control should be confused in this way. The effect would be that different standards of construction and a different system of enforcement would apply to new buildings in one small part of inner London from that applying to other buildings in that part and to buildings in the rest of the area. This difference would be particularly significant in respect of the different codes relating to high, large and public buildings. Furthermore, there would be an administratively complex hotch-potch of the premises provided in accordance with the London building Acts and others provided in accordance with the national building regulations.
The amendment accordingly seeks to ensure that the London building Acts and by-laws will continue to operate in the areas in which they are at present in force, thus avoiding the unnecessary complexities which could arise under the clause as at present drawn. It may be argued that it would be administratively difficult for the UDC to enforce two different codes of building control in its area. While that is a strong argument for not transferring the functions, it cannot be a justification for the hotch-potch to be left to be coped with by local authorities after the dissolution of the UDC. It may be that the most satisfactory solution will be for Her Majesty's Government to abandon the unnecessary proposal to transfer building regulation powers and to leave these matters in the hands of the local authorities. I beg to move.
10.45 p.m.
Lord BELLWIN: This amendment seeks to restrict the UDCs to operating the London building legislation, inner London, rather than the national building regulations. We accept that there may be a good case for allowing this to happen but we consider it important to provide the flexibility for the UDC to operate either the London or the national regulations. It is not yet clear whether building control functions need to be transferred to the UDCs. There may be circumstances in

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which it is necessary to do so, for instance to speed up approvals in all or part of one of the urban development areas.
The Government have therefore tabled an amendment which will allow an order made under Clause 135 to transfer either the inner London system to the UDC or the national system, depending on the circumstances. I am sure it is wise to leave the options open in the main legislation so that the most appropriate decision can be made at the order-making stage. This is general legislation and we see no reason to make it inflexible in the way that the amendment would do, but in the light of that explanation I wonder whether my noble friend may feel able to withdraw his amendment?
Lord PITT of HAMPSTEAD: Before the noble Lord decides whether he is going to withdraw, there is still the possibility—and the Minister can see the point—that after the UDC has been abandoned you will have this hotch-potch if in fact the UDC decides to use the national form rather than the London regulations. Therefore, I would have thought you needed this situation to be tightened. I think this is one occasion when you really cannot have the flexibility which the Minister is suggesting. I wonder whether he will look at it again?
Lord TAYLOR of BLACKBURN: I was going to make exactly the same point as my noble friend Lord Pitt, that it is the situation, as has been stated from the Government Front Bench on more than one occasion this evening, that eventually the UDCs will be run down, their powers will be transferred back to the local authorities concerned, and it will be only sensible if in fact the London regulations applied here.
Lord BELLWIN: If you have the alternative and that situation happily comes about one day, they can indeed apply the London regulations; they have the option.
Lord PITT of HAMPSTEAD: But in view of the way in which the Minister is explaining it, if in fact the UDC decides to use the national rather than the London regulations, at the end of the day you can have a hotch-potch. That is why flexibility is really not as useful as the Minister is suggesting.
Lord GAINFORD: I think my noble friend the Minister has given fairly reasonable assurances, and on those grounds I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 135, as amended, agreed to.
Lord BELLWIN Lord BELLWIN moved Amendment No. 274A:
After Clause 135, insert the following new clause:
(" Fire precautions and homes insulation
.—(1) The Secretary of State may make an order under this section directing that, subject to the provisions of the order, an urban development corporation shall have in its area (or in such part of its area as may be specified in the order)—

(a) the functions of a fire authority under the Fire Precautions Act 1971;

(b) the power of a local authority under section 36 of that Act (power to make loans to meet expenditure on certain alterations to buildings occasioned by the Act); and

(c) the functions of a local authority under any scheme made by virtue of section I of the Homes Insulation Act 1978 (schemes for the making of grants towards the cost of works undertaken to improve the thermal insulation of dwellings).

(2) On the order coming into force, the corporation shall have the functions conferred in relation to the area (or part) instead of or concurrently with any such authority, depending on the terms of the order.
(3) The order may provide that any enactment under which the corporation is to exercise functions by virtue of the order shall have effect in relation to the corporation and, where the corporation is to have any function concurrently with another authority, in relation to that authority, as modified by the order.
(4) The order shall have effect subject to such savings and transitional and supplementary provisions as may be specified in the order.
(5) The power to make an order under this section shall be exercisable by statutory instrument.
(6) No order under this section shall have effect until approved by a resolution of each House of Parliament.").
The noble Lord said: This clause is technically necessary in respect of the transfer of the housing functions and would give UDCs access to certain powers and functions under the Fire Precautions Act 1971 and the Homes Insulation Act 1978. Briefly, these functions are related to issuing fire certificates, powers to make loans to meet expenditure on alterations to buildings required under the 1971 Act, and powers to make grants towards the

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cost of thermal insulation of buildings. I beg to move.
Baroness STEDMAN: Just one question before the noble Lord puts the Question. It is said that the UDCs shall take over the functions of the fire authority. How are they going to do that? Are they going to work in conjunction with the London Fire Brigade? Where are they going to get the personnel and the machines to do it?
Lord BELLWIN: That, with respect, is not the point. The UDC might need these powers if it were to take on a housing improvement role, say, within the urban development area. As with an order made under Clause 136, the order transferring any powers under this clause would be subject to Affirmative Resolution and the powers would be exercised by the UDC instead of the local authority or even concurrently with the local authority, depending on the terms of the order. Powers would of course not be needed unless it were decided that an order giving, say, local authority housing functions to a UDC were necessary. It is really a kind of reserve power in case it proved to be necessary.
Baroness STEDMAN: It may be a reserve power, but I think we have the right to know which personnel they are going to use. Are they going to come to an arrangement with the local authorities to use their fire prevention officers, their fire precaution officers, or are they going to set up their own empire within the UDC?
Lord BELLWIN: In fact, I should be rather surprised if they were to set up separate operations of the type referred to. Clearly this is where the whole area of working in conjunction with the local authorities applies. I do not see that there is any conflict in what we are seeking to do here by giving powers, should it be necessary. It is technically necessary, and I do not think it is at all sinister, as the noble Baroness may fear.
Baroness STEDMAN: I do not think it is sinister, but I just think that there are the services of the London Fire Brigade there, with all their fire prevention and their fire precautions department. Why
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can they not do it, even if they do it on behalf of the UDC? Why is it necessary for the UDC to have these powers?
Lord BELLWIN: There is a distinct likelihood—indeed I should have thought almost a certainty—that they would do just as the noble Baroness suggests. With things such as issuing certificates and powers to make loans to meet expenditure, alterations to buildings and powers to make grants towards the cost of thermal insulation of buildings, I should not have thought that there was anything there to give cause for concern.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 136 [Corporation as housing authority]:
10.52 p.m.
Lord BELLWIN Lord BELLWIN moved Amendment No. 274B:
Page 114, line 15, leave out from first ("the") to second ("or") in line 17 and insert ("order)—

(a) the functions conferred on a local authority by the Housing Acts 1957 to 1975 and the Housing Act 1980 or by the Housing (Scotland) Acts 1966 to 1978 and the Tenants' Rights, Etc. (Scotland) Act 1980; and

(b) the functions conferred on the authority who are the relevant authority for the purposes of sections 39 to 41 of the Land Compensation Act 1973 or sections 36 to 38 of the Land Compensation (Scotland) Act 1973 (which relate to the rehousing of displaced residential occupiers);").

The noble Lord said: Since this clause was originally drafted, the former Housing Bill has become the Housing Act 1980. This amendment brings that Act and the Tenants' Rights, Etc. (Scotland) Act 1980 within the scope of the clause. This means that functions which local authorities have under those Acts could be transferred to a UDC by an order made under Clause 136. This would only be necessary of course were there to be an order transferring local authority housing functions to a UDC. This amendment therefore does no more than make the housing order-making provision technically correct and in line with current policies. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord BELLWIN Lord BELLWIN moved Amendment No. 274C:

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Page 114, line 25, leave out ("apply, in relation to the corporation,") and insert ("have effect in relation to the corporation and, where the corporation is to have any function concurrently with any other authority, in relation to that authority,").
The noble Lord said: This, too, is a technical amendment. It is needed to deal with the situation which might arise if a UDC were given a housing function under this clause which was to be exercised concurrently with the local authority. This amendment would enable the order to modify the way the appropriate provision in the Housing Acts applied to both the local authority and to the UDC. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
On Question, Whether Clause 136, as amended, shall stand part of the Bill?
Lord PONSONBY of SHULBREDE: We have been discussing a number of clauses in the last half hour or so, dealing with different powers which are to be given to the urban development corporations. I rose on a previous clause which was giving planning powers to an urban development corporation and questioned the wisdom of that particular clause. I must confess that I can see the logic in giving the planning control powers to an urban development corporation to enable it effectively to carry out its operations, and indeed I said that if these powers had been given by agreement we would not be objecting. But I think that an entirely different case applies to the question of housing powers. Housing is something which tends to be of far greater local concern. It is a matter about which people are particularly concerned; that in fact adequate housing policies are carried out in the area in which they live. There seems to be very little logic in the proposal that these powers should be allocated to an urban development corporation. I do not see that this can be regarded as a wrecking amendment. It would be quite possible for the existing local authorities, in agreement with the urban development corporation, to carry out such housing schemes as may be necessary within a particular area.
My view, therefore, is that we should seek the deletion of this clause, to enable the housing powers to be retained by the local authorities concerned. Noble Lords will accept, I think, that the question
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of housing powers is extremely dear to the hearts of local authorities. Their ability to solve the problems of their own housing waiting lists lies in their creation of new units of housing.
One can think of the problems which will arise if these powers are left in the Bill. The urban development corporation will have to create its own housing lists. It will have to establish its own housing departments. It may be that it will have only a very few houses which may need replacing within the area of the urban development corporation. It would seem to be rather bureaucratic. One is multiplying the number of housing authorities in an area. It would be very much better if these powers were left with the local authorities concerned and were not transferred to the urban development corporations.
Lord UNDERHILL: I would like to support my noble friend in the proposal he has just put forward. Looking at the Notes on Clauses, it is stated that normally a local authority will be expected to continue to exercise its housing functions in the UDC area, but that it may be necessary to the UDC to exercise some housing powers. It then goes on to say that this clause has been drafted in very general terms. It is in such general terms that it is one of the reasons why we should not agree to incorporate this provision in the Bill.
The noble Lord will no doubt say that this is a reserve power. By the time we have finished, we could have reserve powers for every single one of the functions of the local authorities. I am sure the noble Lord the Minister would agree that this would be a terrible slap in the face for those local authorities which cover large boroughs in the dockland area. It would mean that the housing powers would have to fit in with the rest of the housing work of those boroughs. I am talking about dockland now. I know that they have very proud records in housing. It seems totally unnecessary that this aspect, in a very limited part of their boroughs, should be taken over by the corporation. It would be far more sensible to make other arrangements whereby the corporation would use the work of the housing departments of the boroughs.
Lord EVANS of CLAUGHTON: As your Lordships will see, my name is on the list of those objecting to the inclusion of this clause. It seems to me to be pushing things too far that the housing power should be a power of the urban development corporation—for the reasons already given by the noble Lords. One cannot help feeling that it is preparing the ground for a total takeover in certain circumstances of the responsibilities of local government.
Noble Lords who are councillors and who have been councillors will know (and I am sure the noble Lord the Minister would concede this) that 90 per cent. of the complaints and of the cases that they have to take up, follow up and ask questions about in the local council are housing cases. It is an extraordinary situation, because presumably in urban development corporation areas there are still to be councillors representing the ground. The councillor will be able to make scenes and ask questions in his council about that part of the locally-owned stock which is owned by the local authority, but will not be able to ask questions, make trouble or initiate debates, other than to write letters to the urban development corporation. I am sure the Minister is going to say that these are reserve powers, but in my view they are reserve powers the Minister and the Government do not need.
Lord DAVIES of LEEK: This is what worries me. I came into the Chamber because I knew we were getting to this Part and, having followed this throughout the week, I am worried about the dictatorial power that is put in the hands of these authorities. To those of us who have been experienced in the other place, indeed in both Houses, this whole thing is demonstrative of a rush job. We may not have won many Divisions, but people on both sides of the Chamber with years of experience in all parts of local government can see some of the folly and some of the errors in this Bill. We shall suffer for this later on. We cannot defeat the Government.
Several noble Lords: We have done.
Lord DAVIES of LEEK: Yes, but in the last resort they can bring up their forces and they know that they can rush things
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through. That is not supposed to be the way the party opposite acts, but it is undoubtedly doing it with this Bill, keeping us here till late hours, night and day.
A noble Lord: Who is doing it now?
Lord DAVIES of LEEK: I am doing it to show your Lordships how foolish some of this drafting is—no, not foolish, because it is the apotheosis of obscurity; it is exactly that. The urban development councils are to be set up to regenerate their designated area and they must therefore—now look at this next expression, look at the etymology of it—
"be unequivocally in command of planning decisions in their area and ensure"—
and here it is in the imperative mood—
"they cannot be impeded by the action"—
and here is a slap in the teeth for the local authorities—
"or inaction of local authorities".
This is pomposity gone mad. There are two main considerations that have guided the framing of the legislation and they are not worth the paper they were printed on. They are not giving the chance for democracy to really grow as we are proud of the way it has grown historically in this country. I am ashamed that Members opposite have been coerced into rushing into the Lobbies without demanding longer time to discuss this Bill, not just for the sake of the party but for the sake of Britain.
Lord BELLWIN: Now I understand what an illustrious predecessor meant when he used the phrase "intoxicated by the exuberance of his own verbosity".
Lord DAVIES of LEEK: It is very effective though, because it is the truth.
Lord BELLWIN: The fact is that when all the rhetoric has died down and all the drama is finished, what we are talking about here is giving to the UDCs, who may well need to exercise housing improvement functions and the like, certain powers which would not go to the UDCs in any event other than by specific affirmative orders which, at the end of the day, rest with Parliament. Either one accepts that UDCs are going to have a chance to do the job or one does not. As I said

1269
at the beginning, one can try to whittle away here and whittle away there the powers we seek to give them.
When we talk in this way we overlook the basic fundamental point which I touched on at the beginning; namely, what are these areas that we are talking about? Are they so developed, so advanced? Do they have such housing that one is seeking to take over? One has to go and see what it is that has to be done, and who is going to put up the housing. What housing is being put up now? The local authorities have their problems in having to do this. What we are seeking is to give encouragement to people, to bring in others to bring to it a dimension that does not exist now. If it had existed before we should not have had the problems we are talking about.
I do not believe we should accept that this is something that is wicked or naughty or trying to take over. I regret the language, because the UDC will succeed by working with the local authorities. They can work together with people who are trying to bring in more resources. At the end of the day that is the key to whether or not it will succeed. Will they be able to encourage more resources to come in from the private sector? There is no amount of money that could go into 6,000 acres of land from the public source and make happen what we want to see happen.
Lord PITT of HAMPSTEAD: The Minister ought to have tried to convince us that the UDC needs to have housing powers; that is the thing about Clause 136. I know something about docklands. There was in existence—and still is—a joint committee of the GLC and the boroughs working to develop the area. At this stage I am not arguing whether or not they should be replaced by a UDC. All right; we have decided they should be replaced by a UDC. The argument now, however, is whether the UDC needs to have housing powers in order to do the job. I do not know about other Members of the Committee, but certainly the Minister has not convinced me that it needs to have housing powers in order to do the job. In the area we are talking about there are already nine housing authorities. The Minister is indicating that he is going to add a tenth housing authority.
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We need to address ourselves to the question whether or not that is necessary. I cannot see that it is necessary, because the housing development work can be done by the local authorities. If there is to be private development, that can also go on. The UDC does not need to have housing powers in order to have private housing development. If the Minister is saying that what is required is a new injection of private housing, that can happen without the UDC having housing powers. I hope the Minister will try again to convince the Committee that the UDC that is to be created needs the housing powers he is giving it.
Lord BRUCE of DONINGTON: I should like to ask the noble Lord the Minister a question. It may be that I do not understand correctly the full purport of the clause, but, as I understand it, it transfers to the UDC certain powers under the Housing Acts that are exercised by local authorities. The point occurs to me that the Housing Acts themselves confer these powers on a body that is democratically elected, whereas the UDC, under the provisions of Schedule 23, is an appointed body. This would seem to me to be a significant breach in the exercise of democratic administration within the entire neighbourhood of which the portion occupied by the UDC forms only a part. I should like to have the noble Lord's observations on that. It may be, it not being my specialist subject, that I have not got it right. If I have got it wrong I should be obliged if he would correct me. If I am right, then I should be glad to have his explanation as to why this has taken place at all.
Lord BELLWIN: I do not want to drag this matter out. The noble Lord, Lord Pitt of Hampstead, said that I should keep on trying to convince him—well, I do keep on trying, but it seems that I very rarely succeed. But I shall keep on trying. The fact is that as regards housing, and indeed the other powers that we seek to give to the UDCs, there will be certain functions which will continue to stay with the local authorities entirely, and they have been specified. I do not want to go into all that again. But the fact is that, hopefully, there will be co-operation—indeed, if there is not co-operation then, as I have said two or three times today, I think that the UDC

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will have a very difficult job indeed. I am quite sure—indeed, I know—that the chairman of both of them are more than anxious to work together with the local authority. Certainly, if I were doing the job it would be the first thing that I would embark upon.
But to cover the specific point that the noble Lord, Lord Bruce of Donington, raised with me, I must say, Yes, the clause transfers the powers of the local housing authority, but there is no intention of making the UDC a major housing authority as such. Such powers as may be granted under Clause 136 will merely be to help the overall housing strategy for the area, particularly as regards improvements. I should have thought that that, together with new private build or build for sale were the main requirements of the area. Indeed, if I were charged with the job I would sit down with the local authorities and say, "Come on, you tell us your strategies. What can we do to help? We have some ideas. We want to try to encourage people to come together and to work together." That is how I see it. I hope that that is how it will be.
Lord DAVIES of LEEK: I should like to ask a question arising from the schedule.
This is a new Quango, is it not? That word was used in a derogative sense when the other Government were in power, and someone ran around discovering them. In appointing these members, what kind of salary will they receive? There is an absurd statement. It says that any member of the corporation may, by notice in writing, addressed to the Secretary of State, resign his membership. It goes on to say that the chairman and deputy chairman may, by like notice, resign. What does that mean? Does that mean that if one does not write one would have to stay in perpetuity as the chairman? Could one never escape without writing a letter? This is the absurdity of the drafting of the stuff. It has not been thought through. Of course, there is no answer—we shall not get an answer. What kind of salary will they receive? How many of them will there be in Britain? Can we have a complete list of them before the Act is working?
11.12 p.m.
On Question, Whether Clause 136, as amended, shall stand part of the Bill?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 62; Not-Contents, 17.

CONTENTS

Avon, E.

Gibson-Watt, L.

Monk Bretton, L.

Bellwin, L.

Gisborough, L.

Morris, L.

Belstead, L.

Gowrie, E.

Murton of Lindisfarne, L.

Boardman, L.

Grafton, D.

Newall, L.

Bolton, L.

Halifax, E.

Orr-Ewing, L.

Brabazon of Tara, L.

Hanworth, V.

Renton, L.

Carr of Hadley, L.

Harvey of Tasburgh, L.

Rochdale, V.

Cathcart, E.

Harvington, L.

Rodney, L.

Cork and Orrery, E.

Hatherton, L.

Salisbury, M.

Craigmyle, L.

Holderness, L.

Sandford, L.

Croft, L.

Hornsby-Smith, B.

Sandys, L. [Teller.]

Cullen of Ashbourne, L.

Ironside, L.

Selkirk, E.

de Clifford, L.

Kemsley, V.

Sempill, Ly.

De Freyne, L.

Killearn, L.

Strathcona and Mount Royal, L.

De La Warr, E.

Linlithgow, M.

Strathmore and Kinghorne, E.

Denham, L. [Teller.]

Long, V.

Trefgarne, L.

Digby, L.

Lyell, L.

Vaux of Harrowden, L.

Drumalbyn, L.

Mackay of Clashfern, L.

Vickers, B.

Elliot of Harwood, B.

Margadale, L.

Westbury, L.

Ferrers, E.

Marley, L.

Young, B.

Gainford, L.

Middleton, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Avebury, L.

Houghton of Sowerby, L.

Sainsbury, L.

Bruce of Donington, L.

Llewelyn-Davies of Hastoe, B.

Simon, V.

David, B. [Teller.]

Peart, L.

Stedman, B. [Teller.]

Davies of Leek, L.

Pitt of Hampstead, L.

Stone, L.

Elwyn-Jones, L.

Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.

Underhill, L.

Evans of Claughton, L.

Rochester, L.

Resolved in the affirmative, and Clause 136, as amended, agreed to accordingly.
Clause 137 [Rent rebates]:
11.21 p.m.
Lord BELLWIN Lord BELLWIN moved Amendment No. 275:
Page 114, line 34, leave out from beginning ("dwellings") in line 36 and insert ("It shall be the duty of every urban development corporation to bring into operation and to maintain a scheme for granting, to persons who occupy as their homes").
The noble Lord said: Perhaps I could also speak to Amendments Nos. 276 and 277. These three amendments are needed in order to bring this clause into line with the amendments made to the Housing Finance Act 1972 by the Housing Act 1980. The amendment removes the old restriction on the UDC's duty, which was to provide rent rebates only to persons who occupied housing revenue account dwellings. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord BELLWIN Lord BELLWIN moved Amendment No. 276:
Page 115, leave out lines 1 to 3 and insert—
("(2) No rebate from the rent for any dwelling shall be granted by virtue of this section to any person—

(a) if he occupies the dwelling in England and Wales under a licence which was granted as a temporary expedient to a person who entered it, or any other land, as a trespasser (whether or not before the grant another licence of that or any other dwelling has been granted to him); or

(b) if he occupies the dwelling in pursuance of a contract of service with the corporation the terms of which require that he shall be provided with a dwelling at a rent specified in the contract; or

(c) if Part II of the Landlord and Tenant Act 1954 (security of business tenants) applies to his tenancy.").

On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord BELLWIN Lord BELLWIN moved Amendment No. 277:
Page 115, line 4, leave out ("exercise the duty in") and insert ("perform the duty to bring a scheme into force which is imposed on them by").
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 137, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 138 agreed to.
Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYAL Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYAL moved Amendment No. 278ZA:
After Clause 138, insert the following new clause:
Other provisions relating to corporations as landlords.
(".—(1) Chapter I of Part I of the Housing Act 1980 (in this section referred to as "the 1980 Act") shall apply to an urban development corporation as if it were a landlord specified in paragraph 2 of Schedule 1 to that Act (landlords against whom the right to buy cannot be exercised in certain circumstances).
(2) Chapter II of that Part of the Act of 1980 shall have effect—

(a) as if the landlord condition were satisfied where the interest of the landlord belongs to an urban development corporation; and

(b) as if a reference to such a corporation were included in any reference to a development corporation in the following provisions:—

(i) section 42(1) (meaning of "landlord authority");

(ii) section 45(1) (exemption certificates); and

(iii) paragraph 2(1) of Schedule 3 (bodies whose employees' tenancies are not secure if their contract of employment requires them to occupy a dwelling-house for the better performance of their duties).

(3) Section 140 of the Act of 1980 (exclusion of shared ownership tenancies from the Leasehold Reform Act 1967) shall have effect in relation to a lease granted by an urban development corporation which complies with the conditions set out in subsection (3) of that section.
(4) Parts I, II and III of the Tenants' Rights, Etc. (Scotland) Act 1980 shall have effect as if a reference to an urban development corporation were included in any reference in those provisions to a development corporation established by an order made, or having effect as if made, under the New Towns (Scotland) Act 1968.").
The noble Lord said: This is another of the new clauses which are necessary to bring the tenants of the UDCs within the scope of the Housing Act 1980 in line with local authority and new town tenants. The clause would give tenants of UDCs the right to buy their houses, security of tenure and other rights afforded by the 1980 Act. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 139 [Highways]:
11.24 p.m.
Lord EVANS of CLAUGHTON Lord EVANS of CLAUGHTON moved Amendment No. 278A:
Page 115, line 26, after ("may") insert ("provided it has consulted with the street works

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authority prior to the execution of such street works)").
The noble Lord said: This clause as it stands makes no provision for prior consultation with the street works authority by the urban development corporation. In my opinion it is desirable that an obligation is placed upon the urban development corporation to consult the street works authority since the latter is not the local planning authority and may not be aware of the works until after they have been completed. Prior consultation will prevent later argument, which the Minister has told us so frequently he is anxious to avoid, as to the proper standard required by the street works authority. It is also necessary for the street works authority to know in advance what its likely maintenance liability will be when the streets are ultimately declared highways maintainable at the public expense. I beg to move.
Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYAL: We agree with the noble Lord that it is very important for consultations to take place between the UDC and the street works authority about standards of construction, alignment and so on before the execution of street works. It is our belief that this can be achieved administratively and that the way the amendment is drafted might require the UDC to consult the street works authority before the execution of works on each and every street that is proposed for adoption, which could be onerous and would be unnecessary provided there was the degree of understanding between the two authorities about the lay-out and standards of roads in the urban development area. I therefore hope we may persuade the noble Lord that the amendment is unnecessary.
Lord EVANS of CLAUGHTON: So as not to detain the Committee at this late hour, if those with whom I have been consulting still feel strongly about the matter I can raise it again at a later date. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
11.26 p.m.
Lord EVANS of CLAUGHTON Lord EVANS of CLAUGHTON moved Amendment No. 278B:
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Page 115, line 36, leave out ("in the urban development area") and insert ("within the area of the street works authority").
The noble Lord said: This is another highways amendment. It is aimed at achieving a uniform standard of street works throughout the area of the street works authority. As the clause stands, a situation could occur where there might be one standard for works within the urban development area and a different standard for the rest of the street works authority's area. I understand that within the proposed area of at least the Mersey-side UDC there is a considerable number of streets which are unadopted and their standard of construction is lower than that required by the street works authority for developers elsewhere in the area of the street works authority.
As noble Lords may be aware, much of the area of the proposed UDC is in the area of docklands and often the standard of streets there is cobbled streets with disused railway lines criss-crossing them. Indeed, one of the best ways of testing the durability of the new Mini-Metro would be to drive it across the Liverpool docks. One hopes and wishes—and I hope it would be the Government's wish—that the urban development corporation's streets should reach the same standard as the streets in the rest of the local authority area, and that is the purpose of the amendment.
Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYAL: The noble Lord is right in what he says, but I have to disagree with him. We believe that, if the amendment were accepted, the highway authority would insist on standards which, while they might be appropriate to the area of street works as a whole, might be unreasonable within the special circumstances of an urban development area. Essentially, therefore, we believe the amendment could be detrimental.
Lord EVANS of CLAUGHTON: I would only comment that when the UDC has come into existence the Minister may care to come in his Ministerial car and drive across these areas, and then he may regret what he has just said. But, again, in view of the lateness of the hour and the noble Lord's explanation, I will seek leave to withdraw the amendment at this stage and, if necessary, bring the matter forward again at a later stage.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 139 agreed to.
Clause 140 agreed to.
11.29 p.m.
Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYAL Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYAL moved Amendment No. 278C:
After Clause 140, insert the following new clause:
("Public health etc.
.—(1) The Secretary of State may by order provide that an urban development corporation shall have in its area (or in such part of its area as may be specified in the order) the functions conferred on a local authority—

(a) by sections 83 and 84 of the Public Health Act 1936 and sections 35 to 37 of the Public Health Act 1961 (all of which relate to filthy or verminous premises or articles) or in relation to Scotland by section 40 of the Public Health (Scotland) Act 1897 (which makes similar provision for Scotland);

(b) by any enactment contained in Part III (nuisances and offensive trades) or IX (common lodging-houses of the Public Health Act 1936 or in relation to Scotland by Parts II or V or the Public Health (Scotland) Act 1897 (which respectively makes similar provision for Scotland);

(c) by so much of Part XII of the Public Health Act 1936 as relates to any of the enactments mentioned in paragraphs (a) and (b) above; and

(d) by Part I of the Prevention of Damage by Pests Act 1949 (rats and mice).

(2) On the order coming into force, the corporation shall have the functions conferred in relation to the area (or part) instead of or concurrently with any such authority, depending on the terms of the order.
(3) The order may provide that any enactment under which the corporation is to exercise functions by virtue of the order shall have effect in relation to the corporation and, where the corporation is to have any function concurrently with another authority, in relation to that authority, as modified by the order.
(4) The order shall have effect subject to such savings and transitional and supplementary provisions as may be specified in the order.
(5) The power to make an order under this section shall be exercisable by statutory instrument.
(6) No order under this section shall have effect until approved by a resolution of each House of Parliament.").
The noble Lord said: This new clause enables the Secretary of State to transfer certain functions under the Public Health Acts and the Prevention of Damage by Pests Act 1949 to the UDC to be exercised by the UDC instead of, or concurrently with, the local authority. It is essentially
1278
a technical transfer operation on which I do not think I need elaborate. I beg to move.
Lord PONSONBY of SHULBREDE: The noble Lord said that this is a technical amendment. It is the kind of amendment on which we would appreciate a note, bearing in mind that in its present form it has appeared on the Marshalled List for the first time only today.
Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYAL: I understand the noble Lord's feeling, particularly in view of the fact that he chose to divide against Clause 136. I cannot pretend to understand every word of the amendment, but I am informed that it is essentially a technical amendment. I hope that the noble Lord can accept that it is that and nothing else.
Lord UNDERHILL: Is it really a technical amendment? I cannot fully grasp these points, but when one quickly looks at them one wonders whether it is entirely necessary for the corporation to have these particular powers. Surely they can be exercised by simple agreement with the local authority.
Lord AVEBURY: Since previously the Government, very helpfully, have been able to provide us with Notes on Clauses, so that we have the same briefs as are available to the Government, surely they could do the same in respect of new clauses that they have tabled more recently. If the noble Lord the Minister has in front of him a note analogous to those Notes on Clauses—of which we have a vast pile available to us—could he not on future occasions when such amendments are tabled ensure that we have those notes as well?
Lord BELLWIN: The noble Lord was not present when I touched on that point a little while ago, when I said that we have tried to give everything that we have got on this Bill, including both Notes on Clauses and Notes on Amendments. To the extent that we have them, we shall see that any noble Lord who wishes can have them as well. We would keep on doing that right through to the end of the Bill. So, if we have anything, it is available to noble Lords as well.
Baroness STEDMAN: We appreciate the help that we have received from the noble Lord. He has been very good; he has provided us up until today with Notes on Clauses and Notes on Amendments. I appreciate that these amendments went in late, and we have not had the notes. We would appreciate them. But I should like to express our appreciation for notes that we have had.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clauses 141 to 143 agreed to.
11.33 p.m.
Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYAL Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYAL moved Amendment No. 279:
After Clause 143, insert the following new clause:
("Supply of goods etc. by local authorities
.—(1) Subject to subsection (2) below, in the Local Authorities (Goods and Services) Act 1970 (supply of goods and services by local authorities to public bodies) "public body" shall include any urban development corporation.
(2) The provisions of subsection (1) above shall have effect as if made by an order under section 1(5) of the Local Authorities (Goods and Services) Act 1970 (power to provide that a person or description of persons shall be a public body for the purposes of that Act).
(3) An order under the said section 1(5) may accordingly vary or revoke the provisions of subsection (1) above as they apply to an urban development corporation specified in the order.").
The noble Lord said: This amendment honours an assurance given in another place at the Committee stage, and it also refers to the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Evans of Claughton—I think it was Amendment No. 264A. This amendment is intended to include urban development corporations within the meaning of "public body" for the purposes of the Local Authorities (Goods and Services) Act 1970. Essentially the point is that it would enable local authorities to provide goods and services for UDCs on an agency basis. We believe that this demonstrates the Government's concern with the need to ensure effective co-operation between UDCs and local authorities. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 144 agreed to.
Lord GAINFORD Lord GAINFORD moved Amendment No. 280:
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After Clause 144, insert the following new clause:
("Compensation for loss of office, etc.
. The following paragraph shall be inserted after paragraph (d) in subsection (3) of section 259 of the Local Government Act 1972 (compensation for loss of office)—
"(e) the provisions of Part XVI (urban development) of the Local Government, Planning and Land Act 1980 or of any order made or direction given there-under;
and, accordingly, in relation to any regulations required to be made in pursuance of such paragraph (e) of subsection (3) of the said section 259—

(i) in subsection (1) of that section for the words "such body or such Minister" there shall be deemed to be substituted the words "such urban development corporation";

(ii) the reference in the said subsection (1) to any provision of that Act or of any instrument made thereunder shall be deemed to be a reference to any provision of Part XVI (urban development) of this Act or of any order made or direction given thereunder; and

(iii) subsection (4) of that section shall not have effect.")

The noble Lord said: This amendment attempts to deal with the substantial staffing implications for local government or UDC employees. The problem is particularly acute in London where the Dockland Development Organisation has operated with a staff whose jobs and prospects will be affected by the establishment of a UDC for the area. Uncertainties have also been created for staff employed by the GLC and London boroughs affected. Any staff cutbacks may inhibit their absorption into other areas of work. The same problems will ultimately arise for the staffs of the UDCs themselves when in due course those bodies are dissolved. I beg to move.
Lord PONSONBY of SHULBREDE: I found a slight difficulty in hearing the noble Lord, Lord Gainford, in moving this amendment, and I fear that a number of noble Lords on this side of the Committee did, too, but I should like to support the noble Lord in this particular amendment which he has moved after Clause 144. There is a real problem here. There is the Joint Docklands Development Committee, and all the jobs on that committee will become redundant; a chief executive has been appointed for the new urban development corporation from outside the DDO; and senior members of the staff of the Joint Docklands Development

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Committee will become redundant in spite of the fact that a number of them have contracts in force. The proposal made by the noble Lord, Lord Gainford, is one which has my wholehearted support.
Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYAL: I am sorry to say that this amendment is unacceptable to the Government since the powers contained in Part XVI of this Bill do not in themselves wind up any local government organisations in a manner comparable with the 1972 reorganisation of local government and the 1963 reorganisation of London local government. So we do not believe that there is any need for the complex legislative provisions that would be provided by this amendment.
Lord PITT of HAMPSTEAD: Is the Minister saying that there does not appear to the Government to be any need to be doing anything about the people who will in fact be thrown out of work—say, in the docklands area—as a result of the setting up of the new urban development corporation? I would have thought that at least some provision would be made for taking care of these matters.
Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYAL: I am not saying anything of the kind. What I am saying is that this part of the Bill does not wind up any organisation, so you do not need to set up a complicated organisation to deal with the fact of what would happen if it did.
Lord PITT of HAMPSTEAD: I am sorry, but you do wind up. There is a Joint Dockland Development Organisation at this moment. As a consequence of the setting up of the urban development corporation, it has to be wound up.
Lord PONSONBY of SHULBREDE: I think that what the noble Lord, Lord Strathcona, is saying is that this clause as it stands creates the power and the ability in the Government to create an urban development corporation but does not, in the Bill, set up an urban development corporation for docklands, and therefore there is no need to set up the machinery to meet the particular need set out in this amendment. But, of course, as my noble friend Lord Pitt says, we all know—and the noble Lord, Lord Bellwin, has repeated this this evening—the intention
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is that as soon as this Bill receives the Royal Assent orders will be laid before Parliament setting up the urban development corporations in docklands and in Merseyside; and, of course, as soon as they are set up it will have the effect that the Joint Docklands Development Committee is dissolved, and it will have the adverse effect which has been spoken of by the noble Lord, Lord Gainford, and by my noble friend Lord Pitt, that people will be out of their jobs in a period of time. It is only right that the necessary safeguards for staff should be created to meet the difficulties brought about as a consequence of this Government legislation.
Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYAL: What I am saying, very simply, is that this is not the place to tackle that particular problem, if indeed the problem exists—and I do not know that it necessarily will.
Lord GAINFORD: I am very grateful to those noble Lords who have come in, as it were, on this amendment, for their support, and for the advice of my noble friend. As it is, I wish to withdraw the amendment. I may consult my noble friend about any action in the future. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
11.40 p.m.
Lord GAINFORD Lord GAINFORD moved Amendment No. 281:
After Clause 144, insert the following new clause:
("Transitional agreements as to property, finance, etc.
. Section 68 of the Local Government Act 1972 (transitional agreements as to property and finance) shall apply for the purposes of Part XVI (urban development) of this Act as it applies for the purposes of Part IV of that Act subject, for the purposes of such application, to the following modifications—

(a) the references in the said section 68 to a public body or public bodies shall be deemed to include references to an urban development corporation;

(b) in subsection (1) of the said section 68 for the words "the alteration, abolition or constitution of any area by an order under this Part of this Act" there shall be deemed to be substituted the words "any order made or direction given under Part XVI (urban development) of the Local Government, Planning and Land Act 1980", and for the words "the alteration, abolition

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or constitution" there shall be deemed to be substituted "such order or direction";

(c) subsections (6) to (9) of the said section 68 shall not apply.").

The noble Lord said: The Bill does not provide for the necessary and proper vesting of local authorities' property rights and liabilities consequent on the conferring of certain of their functions on the UDC. The properties might include district offices or, in the case of London, accommodation leased by the present Dockland Development Organisation which will become surplus to requirements but for which the GLC would have continuing liabilities. The additional clause proposed would provide general powers to cover the wide range of circumstances which might arise but which cannot yet be identified in detail as much will depend upon the content of the various ministerial orders and directions under Part XXVI of the Bill. I beg to move.
Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYAL: Here, again, much the same arguments apply. We cannot accept this amendment. We do not consider that the creation of urban development corporations will lead to a situation comparable to the reorganisation of local government. If the London local authorities decide, in view of the UDC, to wind up the DDO, there will on the whole be savings in administrative costs which the UDC will carry instead of the local authorities. It would be doubly unfair if the UDC also had to bear the transitional costs. There is no provision of this type in the New Towns Act and we do not consider it necessary or appropriate in the case of urban development areas.
Viscount SIMON: I think the analogy with the New Towns Act is not appropriate. When a new town is set up it does not take over something already being done. I hope the Minister might be able to say that when the order comes forward for the setting up of the UDC, that order will contain the necessary provisions to protect the interests of people losing their jobs thereby. That would be the place to bring it in; in the order introducing the UDC.
Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYAL: I do not believe that that is
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going to be necessary, as I understand the way in which the Government envisage the Act working. We do not believe that it would be right or proper to accept this amendment as it stands. I should like to read what the noble Viscount has said, to see whether there is anything in the point he makes.
Lord ELWYN-JONES: If a number of people suffer loss of employment as a result of these developments, to whom will they have to look for compensation, redundancy payments and the rest? Will it be the local authorities who presently employ them; or will there be some new arrangements following the order? The point just made gives rise to consideration as to what should be included in the order.
Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYAL: This is a fair point. In practice, I think one would envisage that the organisations, we hope, would be more active and will require a larger number of people to get on with the job than at the moment. One does not envisage the kind of disruption to which the noble and learned Lord refers.
Lord PITT of HAMPSTEAD: Already there are people who are thrown out of work. The chief officer of the DDO will be out of a job because, in effect, the designated UDC has appointed a chief officer; so that you already have an example of what will happen.
Lord GAINFORD: Following what has been said on this amendment, I shall beg leave to withdraw it and to consider any possible future action.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Schedule 27 [Urban Development Corporations: Finance, etc.]:
11.44 p.m.
Lord UNDERHILL Lord UNDERHILL moved Amendment No. 282:
Page 236, line 26, leave out paragraph 13 and insert—
("Annual Report
13.—(1) An urban development corporation shall make to the Secretary of State, as soon as possible after the end of each finanical year, a report on the exercise and performance by them of their operations and functions during

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that year and their policies and programme and the Secretary of State shall lay a copy of every such report before each House of Parliament.
(2) The reports made by each urban development corporation shall include—

(i) the titles, together with their respective requirements or effects of any orders made by the Secretary of State in respect of the corporation within the period of the year concerned together with a description of any directions or authorisations given by him to or to be effected by the corporation arising from this Act;

(ii) a statement of remuneration, fees, allowances, or other payments made to the Chairman, Vice-Chairman and other named members of the Corporation;

(iii) a statement concerning the numbers, organisation, operation and cost of the staff, servants and administrative arrangements of the corporation;

(iv) an account of any standing arrangements made by the corporation with any local authority, other statutory bodies, or any other body or group of bodies, which has been made in pursuit of the objectives of the corporation;

(v) a schedule of land vested in, acquired by, or disposed of by the corporation whether or not such land has been acquired by compulsory purchase, together with any changes in planning consents made by any statutory authority in respect of that land whilst in ownership of the corporation; together with a similar schedule of any leases or similar agreements made in respect of land owned by the corporation, which have been made for a period of five or more years;

(vi) any financial determination made by the Secretary of State, together with statements describing the nature and amount of: all grants; borrowing (including that in foreign currencies); loans (together with respective rates of interest); guarantees and related repayments; assumed debt and associated rates of interest; payment of surplus funds and associated information as set out in Schedule 24 to this Act;

(vii) a copy of the audited statement of accounts, which shall show separately the financial transactions of the corporation, in respect of each of its principal categories of activity".).

The noble Lord said: There is nothing exceptional in this amendment because paragraph 13 of the schedule makes provision that a report generally shall be presented which shall include accounts and that it shall be presented to Parliament. All that the amendment is doing is listing seven points which ought to be in the report. It says "shall include" these items. I am sure that if noble Lords look at the seven points, there is not one to which exception could be taken. It is the sort of information that Parliament ought
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to have in a report presented to it by one of these bodies. I beg to move.
Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYAL: There is nothing wrong in principle with what the noble Lord has suggested. The question is whether it is the right way of doing it and whether it goes far enough. There are quite a number of ways in which there might be other information that might be required and sometimes on a different time scale from the annual report. What I suggest to the noble Lord is that he bears in mind the point made by my noble friend Lord Bellwin when he was dealing with Amendment No. 259. He referred to the new clause which is going to be introduced after Clause 2 in connection with the code of practice for the publication of information. We shall be able to do a very much better job under the provisions of that section than we would by this amendment.
Lord UNDERHILL: I thank the noble Lord for that offer. We shall obviously wish to see the code to see whether what he says is justified. I am glad that the general principle is accepted and also that he agrees that it does not go far enough. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
On Question, Whether Schedule 27 shall be the twenty-seventh schedule to the Bill?
Lord BRUCE of DONINGTON: Before we part with Schedule 27, I should like some clarification from the noble Lord. Part III of Schedule 27 lays down the requirements in regard to accounts. I have been through this part of the schedule very carefully and I must remark to the noble Lord that the requirements set out in the schedule as to the form that the accounts should take are very much less stringent than the provisions of Part III of the Bill which dealt with the accounts to be kept in respect of direct labour organisations. In the case of direct labour organisations the noble Lord will recall that the Bill provided in the text of the Bill itself, as distinct from the schedule, very stringent requirements indeed as to what accounts should be kept. That is a branch under the control of the democratically elected local authority. The point was made from these Benches that there ought to be a certain amount of trust in

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local authorities whose accounts were, after all, under the supervision of district auditors and were subject to the supervision of the council itself.
In Part III of this schedule we have none of these specific requirements. The UDC is a non-elected body, an appointed body. All that apparently it is required to do is simply to keep proper accounts. We have none of the detailed specifications laid down by the Government in respect of direct labour organisations. The provisions of Part III of Schedule 27 are so vague that the UDC has no effective guidance at all as to what kind of accounts it should keep.
I observe the sense of urgency in the mind of the Government Chief Whip, and I have no desire to prolong the sitting; but the Government must give a reply to matters of this kind. The explanation that I have asked for is a legitimate one for those of us on this side of the Committee to request. I want some explanation as to why, in the case of a UDC consisting of appointed bodies, the Government have not laid down rules as to the keeping of accounts, when they deem them to be necessary in the case of direct labour organisations.
When the noble Lord replies I am hopeful that he will be able to give some indication that at Report stage he will introduce a series of amendments to Part III of Schedule 27 with a view to bringing it up to at least modern accounting standards, to which he paid very substantial tribute when we discussed the DLOs. I hope he will bring forward amendments at Report stage and I give the noble Lord notice that if he fails to do so I shall introduce suitable amendments at Report stage.
Lord AVEBURY: I do not want to prolong the discussion on this particular schedule, but I want to take up one of the points just made by the noble Lord from the Opposition Front Bench regarding the form of accounts which is laid down in Part III of this schedule. I should like to ask the Minister, when he replies to the very reasonable questions that have already been put to him, to look at paragraph (3), which provides that the Secretary of State may notify the corporation of information which is to be contained
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in the statement, the manner in which the information is to be presented and the method and principles according to which the statement is to be prepared. That rather underlines the point made by the noble Lord to the Government Front Bench. What I wish to add is that if the Secretary of State is going to notify the corporation in writing of the requirements under the three headings specified, then Parliament is entitled to know what he has told them to do; but I see no provision in the schedule which requires the Secretary of State to lay before Parliament a statement of these requirements or for them to be incorporated in the annual report.
I should have thought that even if one does not put as much detail into the Bill as the noble Lord on the Front Bench has requested, the very least that Parliament can require of the Government is that there should be retrospectively printed any notices given to the corporation under this section in the annual report following the serving of that notice.
Lord BELLWIN: I must say that at this hour, after all the hours in six days and six nights, the hectoring tone of the noble Lord, Lord Bruce, is not really conducive to making me want to make any kind of response to him. Yes, I am getting on with it! But the fact is that I really do not take kindly to that kind of hectoring at this time of night and I have not the slightest intention of bringing forward the kind of amendments to which the noble Lord referred. I will simply say that Part III allows the Secretary of State to direct the necessary detail. The accounts will be audited by external auditors and will also be subject to the Comptroller and Auditor General. The intention is to have very full accounts.
Schedule 27 agreed to.
Clauses 145 and 146 agreed to.
Clause 147 [Power to survey land etc.]:
Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYAL Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYAL moved Amendment No. 283:
Page 124, line 32, leave out ("(6)") and insert ("(7)").
The noble Lord said: This is a technical amendment which is required to correct

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an error, because the Lands Tribunal is referred to in subsection (7) and not (6). I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 147, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 148 agreed to.
Clause 149 [Ecclesiastical property]:
11.55 p.m.
Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYAL Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYAL moved Amendment No. 284:
Page 126, line 15, at end insert—
("(3) This section does not extend to Scotland.").
The noble Lord said: This amendment disapplies Clause 149 to Scotland. The Church Commissioners have no locus in Scotland, but "ecclesiastical property" as defined in Clause 150 might comprehend some church property in Scotland. We need to make it clear that this clause is concerned with ecclesiastical property in England and Wales only. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 149, as amended, agreed to.
Lord PONSONBY of SHULBREDE Lord PONSONBY of SHULBREDE moved Amendment No. 284A:
After Clause 149, insert the following new clause:
("Local Government Staff Commission
.—(1) The Secretary of State, after consulting with such bodies representative of local authorities or new town development corporations or of staff employed by such authorities or corporations as appear to him to be concerned, shall, not later than one month after the passing of this Act, establish a staff commission for the purpose of—

(a) considering and keeping under review the arrangements for the recruitment of staff by urban development corporations and for the transfer in consequence of the provisions of this Part of this Act or any instrument made under it of staff employed by a relevant government body;

(b) considering such staffing problems arising in consequence of, and such other matters relating to staff employed by a relevant government body as may be referred to the commission by the Secretary of State; and

(c) advising the Secretary of State on the steps necessary to safeguard the interests of such staff.

(2) The Secretary of State may give directions to the staff commission as to their procedure
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and to any relevant government body or urban development corporation with respect to the furnishing of any information requested and the implementation of any advice given by the commission and with respect to the payment by a relevant government body or an urban development corporation of any expenses incurred by the commission in doing anything requested by that relevant government body or urban development corporation.
(3) Any expenses incurred by the staff commission under this section and not recovered from a relevant government body or urban development corporation shall be paid by the Secretary of State.
(4) In this section "relevant government body" means a local authority or new town development corporation any of whose functions are transferred to, or become exercisable by, an urban development corporation.").
The noble Lord said: I am told to be quick on this amendment at five minutes to midnight. This is another amendment concerning the effects which the Bill will have on employees. We have had a number of amendments on different aspects of this subject. The last was the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Gainford, concerning the problems which would arise for employees of the Joint Docklands Committee, as a result of the passage of the Bill. This amendment is more general and seeks the establishment of a staff commission.
The Bill transfers functions from local authorities and new town development corporations, and this transfer could adversely affect the jobs and career prospects of a number of local government employees. In order to protect the interests of such employees, this staff commission is proposed. This has a precedent in Section 257 of the Local Government Act 1972, which established a staff commission for England, consequent upon local government reorganisation.
I am surprised at the insensitivity of the Government to the effects of legislation on employees of local authorities. We have noticed little criticism in the press recently of the very sizeable golden hand-shakes which are being paid to captains of industry on their becoming redundant. One would have thought that a caring Government would be just as much concerned about the effects their legislation would have on employees of local authorities. I hope that, even if the Government are unable to accept this amendment, they will express their concern and show

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their desire to do something to protect the interests of local government employees. I beg to move.
Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYAL: I cannot let the noble Lord get away with the suggestion that we are not taking cognisance of the problem. My noble friend's department is engaged in discussions with the GLC over the implications of the Docklands UDC for the staff who are now employed in the DDO. But it would be quite inappropriate to establish a staff commission to deal with the relatively small number of staff involved. It is something of the order of 30, whereas in the case of the local authority analogy which the noble Lord talked about it was 1½ million. It really would be a sledgehammer to crack a nut; nevertheless, an awkward and not very agreeable nut.
Lord PONSONBY of SHULBREDE: I do not intend to press this amendment to a Division at this time of night. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clauses 150 to 152 agreed to.
Lord DENHAM: I have given an undertaking to the Committee—and I want to keep within the letter of it—that we should finish by 12 o'clock. If I may I will make an apology to the noble Lord Lord Avebury, who has shown a great deal of patience, because his is the next subject. But I think he will agree that
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it would be better to start on that tomorrow so that we can give it the consideration that it needs. Therefore, I beg to move that the House do now resume.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
House resumed.