HL Deb 21 May 1980 vol 409 cc916-8

2.57 p.m.

Lord KILMANY

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether it is normal policy to employ mounted policewomen alongside mounted policemen in riot control where baton charges on horseback are likely to become necessary.

Lord LYELL

My Lords, the deploy- ment of police officers is indeed a matter for the chief constable of the force concerned.

Lord KILMANY

My Lords, while thanking my noble friend for that reply, may I ask him whether he will bear in mind that, while many people admired very much the courage of the mounted policewoman, riding a white horse, who joined in the police charge at Hampden Park in very disagreeable circumstances, this is not really the most suitable way to deploy female labour, however courageous?

Lord LYELL

My Lords, your Lordships will know that all police work involves an element of risk, and we believe that policemen and, indeed, policewomen have time and again displayed courage in the execution of their duties, no less at Hampden Park than anywhere else. It is also the case that over the last five years the police service has been working steadily, and with a good deal of success, to extend the use of women police officers into all aspects of police duties. We think that we should continue this process and study the full effect before any changes are made.

Lord HALE

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that time after time assurances have been given as to the circumstances in which the Government will never authorise the use of mounted and baton-carrying police in political circumstances? Could he say whether any alteration is to be made; whether we are to have an equestrian branch of the Special Branch of the police to help deal with political matters— or what does this Question really forecast?

Lord LYELL

My Lords, I think the noble Lord is addressing himself to another part of the United Kingdom. The Question asked by my noble friend was, I think, about mounted police in Scotland, and this is especially a part of the Strathclyde constabulary. Indeed, I understand there is a report from the police in Strathclyde which will soon be in the hands of my right honourable friend the Secretary of State.

Lord DERWENT

My Lords, is football in Scotland entirely political?

Lord LYELL

Not entirely, my Lords.

Lord PAGET of NORTHAMPTON

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that, speaking from long and personal experience, once you put 'em on a horse, the female sex are far more deadly than the male?

Lord LYELL

My Lords, I am delighted to learn that and the Government will note it very carefully.

Baroness FAITHFULL

My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether the horse was female or male?

Lord LYELL

My Lords, I have no specific information on this point. The Press reports refer to the "Grey Mare Tale", but the text says, "the gelding". I will leave it to your Lordships' judgment.

Lord INGLEWOOD

My Lords, accepting that under the law the terms of service in the police for men and women are the same and that there are many jobs where women are better than men, is my noble friend aware that many senior police officers in this country are far from satisfied with the present position? Would he bear in mind that women are just as expensive to train as are men, on average serve for a considerably shorter period and that the whole question of the service of women police constables alongside men is a subject which could be looked into again, possibly by the Police Advisory Board?

Lord LYELL

My Lords, I am sure that this could be the case; but my noble friend will be interested to know that service in the small mounted branch of the Strathclyde Police is voluntary and ! that applications have been received widely from officers, male and female. At the moment, I understand that there are 28 officers in the mounted branch of the Strathclyde Police of whom five are women. I presume that these policewomen are entirely satisfactory in their duties as mounted policewomen and I would assume that we had better leave it to the Chief Constable of Strathclyde in his report.

Lord INGLEWOOD

My Lords, is that Answer not irrelevant? I have already said that, for many jobs, women were better than men. It could be that they ride horses better. The fact remains that there is considerable disquiet among a number of senior police officers in the service about the present legal position. Will my noble friend look into this again?

Lord LYELL

My Lords, if my noble friend wishes to direct his remarks to Scotland and to Strathclyde, I can make sure that his comments are directed to the right quarter. So far as policewomen, generally, carry out their duties, perhaps he might put down another Question.

Lord MISHCON

My Lords, when the Minister conducts his review, will he be good enough to remember the tradition created South of the Border by Queen Boadicea?

Lord LYELL

My Lords, I shall be glad of that historical reminder.

Lord LEATHERLAND

My Lords, in these days of sexual equality, will the noble Lord do all he can to discourage the belittling of women? Is he aware of the fact that in the days when I used to go out fox hunting, the women were at least equal to the men; and I never saw a woman jib at a jump?

Lord LYELL

My Lords, as the only bachelor on the Government Front Bench, I take note of that and shall be interested to learn more.