HL Deb 21 May 1980 vol 409 cc907-9
Lord ALLEN of ABBEYDALE

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government, in view of their reply to his Question on 17th March last, Official Report, col. 155, that there are as yet no permanent regional psychiatric secure units, what the money allocated for this purpose has been spent on.

Lord CULLEN of ASHBOURNE

My Lords, it has always been recognised that until the permanent units are established, authorities would not be able to use all of the revenue allocation on secure facilities. Since the allocation derives from funds voted for health services and held back from general allocation, authorities have been allowed to use it for other non-recurrent purposes, and in particular on improving other psychiatric services. The department has recently received up-to-date information from regional health authorities of the use made of these allocations; as soon as it has been checked and collated I will send it to the noble Lord and place a copy in the Library of the House. Special capital is made available to health authorities as estimates are approved and plans develop and has been used on capital expenditure for the regional secure units programme.

Lord ALLEN of ABBEYDALE

My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for that informative reply, may I ask him whether he accepts that the achievement so far— that is, the possibility of 30 places by the end of this year out of a total proposed of 1, 000— after something well over £ 30 million has been allocated over the past four years, falls a little short of the highest standard of productivity? Can he give some indication of the reasons for this slow progress?

Lord CULLEN of ASHBOURNE

My Lords, I fully understand what the noble Lord means about the slowness of the development. In fact, when this programme started and money was made available in 1976–77 onwards, there was considerable underestimate of the difficulties that would arise in setting up these regional secure units. There was local opposition and difficulty in getting staff. But the concern that the noble Lord has expressed is entirely shared by the department and by my right honourable friend.

Lord BUTLER of SAFFRON WALDEN

My Lords, as chairman of the Committee on Mental Offenders for three long and arduous years, may I ask the noble Lord if he realises that in April 1974 we presented a preliminary report on this very subject? The Government accepted that report. That was six years ago. So far as I am aware, excepting what the noble Lord referred to in his gracious Answer, very little has been achieved. This is a vital matter and I hope the Government will now pay some attention to it.

Lord CULLEN of ASHBOURNE

My Lords, I fully understand that the noble Lord is very well up in this subject. I also realise how important it is. The department is also very concerned about the slowness in the development, and every encouragement is given by the department to try to press on faster and further with this matter.

Lord HUNT

My Lords, is the Minister aware (I am sure he is, but I must put this in the form of a question) that, in the meantime, many thousands of prisoners who would properly be placed in these secure units are serving— to no good purpose from the public point of view and to great inconvenience and discomfort from the point of view of staff and inmates in Her Majesty's prisons— in penal establishments which have no facilities at all for dealing with those cases?

Lord CULLEN of ASHBOURNE

Yes, my Lords, although I understand that the number of such people has been somewhat exaggerated; a census was taken at the end of last year and there were 138 mentally ill prisoners, so I am told, who would have been suitable for transfer to hospital.

Baroness FAITHFULL

My Lords, may I ask the Minister to say exactly what are the problems concerning staff or lack of staff? Is it the question of remuneration?

Lord CULLEN of ASHBOURNE

My Lords, I understand the difficulty with staff is that there are many other jobs which they can do which are not anything like so difficult.

Lord SEGAL

My Lords, may we have some indication of when the first of these additional units is likely to be opened?

Lord CULLEN of ASHBOURNE

The first of these units is likely to be opened by the end of this year, my Lords.

Lord ALLEN of ABBEYDALE

My Lords, when the Home Secretary made his Statement on 30th April about the May Committee Report on Prisons he said that the Social Services Secretary will continue to give priority to the establishment of regional secure units". Was that intended to be encouraging or discouraging?

Lord CULLEN of ASHBOURNE

It was intended to be encouraging, my Lords.

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