GOVERNMENT PROPERTY: REDECORATION AND SURPLUS FURNISHINGS (Hansard, 20 May 1980)

§ Lord GISBOROUGH
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON
My Lords, the policy is to decorate and furnish these buildings at the least expense consistent with their particular style and quality, taking account, in the case of the 731 Palace, of the views of the appropriate committees of both Houses.

§ Lord GISBOROUGH
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that Answer. With regard to surplus carpets and furniture, can the noble Lord say where these are auctioned, what prior publicity there is, and what advertising is arranged?

§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON
Yes, my Lords; carpets and some furniture are auctioned at public auction rooms in Wembley. I understand that these auctions take place about once a month. They are advertised in both the local and the national press. Furniture is generally re-used elsewhere, if possible, but electrical goods are generally discarded on the grounds that by the time they are replaced they are often virtually useless. But everything is looked at and, if the items can be auctioned, they are.

§ Lord LEATHERLAND
My Lords, will the Minister bear in mind that when chairs become surplus to requirements and are to be sent for sale by auction, it would be a nice idea if Members of this noble House were themselves invited to tender for some of them? I believe that many of us would like to have a House of Lords chair in our own homes so that we could sit in it occasionally when our years are farther advanced.

§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON
My Lords, that is a lovely idea. One has seen in the homes of noble friends Coronation chairs which their parents have bought following Coronations, but I think that if we were to apply that idea to this House we might find that we were adding to the cost of inflation, because noble Lords would want to buy in the chairs cheaply, while the public services replacement department would have to buy them back more expensively, I suspect.

§ Lord AVEBURY
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the noble Lord, Lord Gisborough, was not alone in feeling some anxiety that proper steps should be taken to recover the value of surplus carpets disposed of, and that I drew this matter to the attention of the Comptroller and Auditor General, who recommended some minor changes in procedure to 732 ensure that no waste occurred in the disposal of these materials?

§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON
My Lords, I do not really know to what the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, is referring. With regard to carpets, in the Department of the Environment we have a suspicion that noble Lords may not be aware of the extreme efficiency of the department. All the carpets in the main Committee Room corridor were taken up, cleaned and thoroughly refurbished— which I believe is the appropriate term— and put back again. Many Peers thought that they were new carpets, but they were the same ones as before. We have new carpets in the Library, but three of the four carpets had been down for over 30 years. One carpet was in such bad condition that it had to be replaced in 1965. We put four new ones down. The one which was laid in 1965 is being used elsewhere, and the others have been sold.

§ Lord ORR-EWING
My Lords, can the noble Lord give us rather more information about the advertising of these auction sales in the national press? To my knowledge— and I believe that of my friends— I have never seen these advertisements widely distributed in news- papers. Many of us should like to follow up the suggestion to purchase some of these items. Can we be told— or can the information be given in a written report— the price per square metre or per square yard for the carpets and possibly the price for the chairs that has been attained by this very efficient department?

§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON
My Lords, I have a feeling that somewhere in my brief I have details of the figure per square metre that was obtained, but I do not believe that I can find the information at the moment. These items are advertised in the national press— I can assure the noble Lord about that. I cannot speak for the noble Lord, but speaking for myself, I look at the advertisements in general, but I do not begin to read one hundred thousandth part of them.

§ Baroness BIRK
My Lords, while the noble Lord is perhaps taking the opportunity to cast back his mind, or find the information about the disposal of goods, 733 may I ask whether he is aware that one thing that concerned me when I was a Minister at the Department of the Environment was achieving the right balance between the need for replacement of furniture and carpets, as well as redecoration, and at the same time not allowing the people concerned to "free-lance off" (if I may put it that way) and do things to an over-elaborate extent? Will the noble Lord reassure us that an eye will be kept on the practice that I found of perhaps over-gilding the lily?— and by that I mean the amount of regilding that went on.

§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON
My Lords, with the exception of the Royal Gallery, I cannot think of much regilding that has been done in the last 15 years.
This House and the other place owe an enormous debt of gratitude to our two committees. In our House the noble Viscount, Lord Hood— I do not know whether he is here— has headed a Committee to which I think we owe enormous gratitude. In the other place, the ex- Member of Parliament Sir Robin Cooke, who is now adviser to the Secretary of State for the Environment and the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, helped enormously. They have the idea that, when things have to be replaced, they should be replaced in the right way. This Palace is a Victorian building, and we should try to get it right. Extravagance is out. The Auditor-General and the expense accounts department watch like hawks, and there is no undue extravagance; but when you are going to redecorate, it does not cost very much more to do it correctly than to do it cheaply. I am happy to tell noble Lords that in the coming year the budget for new furnishings in this Palace will be half that for the past year.

§ Lord ELWYN-JONES
My Lords, is not a tribute also due to the excellent craftsmen who have served the Houses of Parliament so loyally over the decades?

§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON
My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble and learned Lord. It certainly is. I watched some craftsmen doing the Royal Gallery— the Arms, and so forth. They were doing them freelance. They were 734 artists. It is not easy to do heraldry. They were not doing it to patterns, as you see done on motor-cars. They were working with artistic skill, and we have no idea of their skill. These people are dedicated craftsmen.

§ Lord DERWENT
My Lords, I do not want to prolong this discussion, but there is something I have wanted to know for a long time. Why has the department cleaned the stonework round the windows on the Government side (whoever is in Government), where the work has been done for many years, whereas on the other side of the House, the Opposition side, it has never cleaned the stonework at all?

§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON
My Lords, I am not quite sure I understand which is the Government side of the House and which is the other side. I think it is purely accidental. The sun shines in on one side and probably dirties it more than the other.

§ Baroness MACLEOD of BORVE
My Lords, after his very helpful replies, may I point out that the Question also asked what happened to the furniture and carpets in ministerial and, presumably, official houses. I wonder whether the Minister could help us on that.

§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON
My Lords, the same principle applies exactly. I think there are only six ministerial houses occupied by Ministers. Exactly the same policy applies.

§ Lord GISBOROUGH
My Lords, following that up, can the noble Lord say what is the average life of white goods— that is to say, articles such as washing machines— in ministerial houses? Is he aware that in one ministerial house it was specifically requested that a certain washing machine should not be changed, that in fact it was, and that that was a complete waste of money?

§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON
My Lords, I in fact chased this up as my noble friend gave me private information, and I found that in point of fact it was a dishwasher. Although it looked new from the outside and the aluminium white was all perfect, I am told that it was in fact over 10 years old and the rubber parts 735 and the valuable washing parts were worn out. The person concerned did not use it in the end, but the dish-washing machine was at the end of its tether.

§ The LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL (Lord Soames)
My Lords, now that my noble friend has given such a demonstration of his detailed knowledge of his job, and we know that the dishwashing machine was found to be at the end of its tether, I wonder whether we in this House are not approaching the same sort of situation and whether we should not move on to other business.