§ 3.22 p.m.
Baroness VICKERSMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in view of the serious inconvenience to the people of London resulting from the understandable protest action taken by London Transport employees during recent weekends, they will arrange for the Home Office and the Department of Transport to coordinate action against violence and vandalism on London Transport.
§ Lord BELSTEADMy Lords, my right honourable friends the Home Secretary and the Minister of Transport held a working conference on violence on public transport on Tuesday, 6th May. I am pleased to be able to say that underground services in London were operated normally last weekend and that the union representatives at the conference indicated that they would be recommending their members to continue normal working following the conference.
Baroness VICKERSMy Lords, I thank my noble friend for his reply. May I ask him whether or not he thinks it would be wise to bring in special constables at peak times in the evenings when football crowds are going home, or when any other demonstrations are taking place? It is very frightening to be on a platform when hordes of people come in. Probably they are not going to do anybody any harm, but one feels as though one is going to be pushed off the platform at any minute.
§ Lord BELSTEADMy Lords, I agree entirely with the concern which my noble friend has expressed. My noble friend might like to know that at this conference last Tuesday the British Rail representatives described their plans for mobile groups of British Transport Police who would be able to respond quickly to reports of incidents. My right honourable friend the Minister of Transport has agreed to consider urgently with British Rail how this might be achieved.
§ Lord AVEBURYMy Lords, does not the Minister consider that we are lacking in a sense of proportion if we can spend half a million pounds, as he told the House the other day, on protecting a handful of Fascist thugs in Lewisham but cannot establish and maintain a police presence on the underground which would deter these bullies from frightening and intimidating members of the travelling public every Friday and Saturday evening, particularly when there is a football match? Can we not increase the presence of uniformed police on the underground so as to act as a deterrent?
§ Lord BELSTEADMy Lords, I think that the answer that I have just given to my noble friend is a reply to the question which the noble Lord has just asked. In addition to the British Transport Police, the Metropolitan Police assist the British Transport Police whenever necessary. As the noble Lord will be aware, I am glad to say that during the last year the numbers of the Metropolitan Police have increased enormously.
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that it is not just a question of football crowds and so on but is very often a question of youths drinking in public houses and then coming outside, late at night, and attacking civilians? At Albany Park, Bexley, on the line which I use, there is no guarantee that anybody travelling late at night on the Dartford Loop will not suffer physical violence. We are facing a national problem. I think that all parties must get down to it and find a way out by occupying the youths or imposing severer penalties.
§ Lord BELSTEADMy Lords, again I entirely agree with what the noble Lord has said. British Rail are at present considering a by-law which would enable them to ban alcohol on selected trains. The Government are concerned that the courts should have adequate powers to deal with juveniles who behave in the way that the noble Lord has described. The Government have announced a number of specific measures in this area which we have either taken or which we intend to take. They include, of course, an increase in the number of attendance centres, an experimental regime in two detention centres, the removal of Section 3 1768 of the Criminal Justice Act 1961 and the introduction of a residential care order for juveniles.
Viscount GAGEMy Lords, belonging, as I do, to an age group which has been warned not to use the underground and having observed what happened to my noble friend Lord Home the other day, I am very glad to hear about what is being done. Could we possibly be informed whether there is any likelihood of the underground being made safe for the likes of us? I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Coslany, that it is a very bad position.
§ Lord BELSTEADMy Lords, I think that the best way I can answer my noble friend is to say this. I have tried to deal with the numbers of British Transport Police and Metropolitan Police, and I have spoken about what the Government are doing. However, I would add, in reply to my noble friend, that the Government are considering a recommendation from the Criminal Law Revision Committee that the maximum penalty for assault should be increased to six months' imprisonment or a fine of £1,000, or both. Subject to the necessary consultations, the Government are ready to accept that recommendation.
§ The Earl of ONSLOWMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether he will hurry up with the review of the drinking laws relating to railway trains? Railway trains and your Lordships' House are two of the few places where one may drink all afternoon. Your Lordships can perhaps be trusted; whether people on railway trains can may be open to doubt.
§ Lord BELSTEADMy Lords, that is why I told the House just now that British Rail are considering a by-law in this respect.
Baroness VICKERSMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend a further question? There are certain underground stations where one can buy a drink. I would suggest that the facilities at Sloane Square and Paddington ought temporarily to he closed.
§ Lord BELSTEADMy Lords, that question again falls within the scope of the answer which I have just given.
§ Baroness HORNSBY-SMITHMy Lords, can my noble friend say whether or not it is a fact that the British Rail Police insist upon policing their own railways and trains and that it is only when they are in trouble that they call in the Metropolitan Police—or has that circumstance been altered?
§ Lord BELSTEADNo, my Lords. I really must make the point that the Government are entirely satisfied with the level of co-operation between the two forces.
§ The LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL (Lord Soames)My Lords, we have a lot of business to get through today. Perhaps we should move on.