§ 6.51 p.m.
§ Lord CULLEN of ASHBOURNEMy Lords, I beg to move the Motion which stands in my name on the Order Paper. The last Government's proposals for the 1981 Census, published in Cmnd. 7146, included a proposal to ask for the number of cars and vans available for use by members of each household. The present Government examined rigorously each of the questions our predecessors had proposed. At first sight, the question on cars and vans did not seem to be essential, and it was therefore not included in the order.
Since the draft order was published, the Secretary of State for Social Services, the Minister of Transport and the Registrar-General have received many requests, particularly from local authorities and Members of Parliament, for the question to be reinstated in the census. When this House considered the draft order on 22nd April, several noble Lords on both sides made the same point and I undertook to put their arguments to the Secretary of State for Social Services. When it was debated last week in another place, amendments were indeed approved to enable this information to be obtained. Noble Lords pointed out that if the question on cars and vans is not in the census, then many local authorities will have to carry our surveys to obtain this information for themselves, and that the total cost of these surveys would exceed the saving achieved by omitting the question from the census. I understand that the cost of adding this question is about £50,000 and my information is that to conduct a special survey of an area containing around half a million households (such as Merseyside) to obtain this information would alone cost this amount.
The extent of car ownership by households largely determines whether demands are put on facilities for cars or for public 1597 transport, so the answers to a question on car availability in the census would indicate the areas where these different demands deserve the greater attention. A question in the census is the only satisfactory source of statistics of car availability in local authority and smaller areas, and value is increased by cross-analyses with other topics in the census.
Consultants and market researchers are also among the users of the figures. For example, there are no local statistics on household income, but the census statistics on possession of a car, and especially two cars, are widely used (particularly in market research) as a general indicator of income level or economic status. In view of the widespread requests for a question on cars and vans to be included in the census, I hope that your Lordships will agree that this is a modification which should be made to the draft order.
Moved, That the following modifications be made to the draft Order in Council laid before the House on the 20th of March:
1. The substitution for item 16 of Schedule 2 of the following item:16. Whether the private household to which the return relates—(a) has exclusive use or whether it has shared use of—
- (i) a fixed bath or shower which is permanently connected to a water supply and to a waste pipe;
- (ii) a water closet with entrance inside the building;
- (iii) a water closet with entrance outside the building;
(b) normally has available for use by members of that household a car or van, and if it has, the number of cars and vans available.2. The substitution for item 19 of Schedule 3 of the following item:19. Whether the private household to which the return relates—(a) has exclusive use or whether it has shared use of—1598
- (i) a fixed bath or shower which is permanently connected to a water supply and to a waste pipe;
- (ii) a water closet with entrance inside the dwelling occupied by that household;
- (iii) a water closet with entrance outside the dwelling occupied by that household;
(b) normally has available for use by members of that household a car or van, and if it has, the number of cars and vans available ".—(Lord Cullen of Ashbourne.)
§ Lord UNDERHILLMy Lords, I think that the whole House will be grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Cullen, for his moving this modification to the order and particularly for the frank way in which he did so. When this order was originally before this House a number of noble Lords questioned whether or not the Government had had correct advice. It is clear from what the noble Lord has said that the advice given at the time was wrong. It was absolutely clear to many of us, particularly from these Benches, that this is a question which should have been asked. It would have given valuable information not only to the department but to the local authorities. I am grateful that the Government have now decided to reconsider the matter.
It would be wrong for us to be churlish and to say that they never should have made the original order. They were obviously dominated by a mood of false economy, as was admitted by the noble Lord, Lord Cullen, and therefore we are pleased that the Government have listened to representations made by various sections of this House, of another place and from local authorities. For that we are grateful and hope that the modification will be approved.
§ Lord HALEMy Lords, may I make a single observation? What does the phrase "normally has available" mean in relation to a family which may have half a dozen members, some going here and some going there? Does it mean garaged on the premises or does it mean normally standing on the premises? The words, "normally has available", are words which, it seems to me, the noble Lord might care to consider. I raise the point because I would not quite know how to answer that question in relation to my own establishment.
§ Lord CULLEN of ASHBOURNEMy Lords, the point is well made.