§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what has been their response to the proposal of Group 77 (now composed of 117 non-aligned nations) that a United Nations conference on global negotiations for international co-operation for development should meet from 5th January to 11th September next year to break the deadlock in the North-South dialogue.
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, Her Majesty's Government participated in the consensus in the United Nations General Assembly which called for global negotiations. We are joining actively in preparatory work for the negotiations, now under way in New York.
§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. Would he not agree that, in view of the fact that, over 10 years, successive United Nations agency conferences—Paris, North-South dialogue—have led only to limited success, a supreme and sustained effort must now be made to reach an agreement? Would the Government support the proposals made by the Willi Brandt Commission, endorsed this week by the French Government, that there should be a summit meeting of Heads of State in January, followed by a sustained conference next year, on the very big agenda, if a package agreement is to be reached?
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, we are not yet in a position to give our 1386 considered views on the many proposals contained in the Brandt Commission's Report; but the details which the Committee of the Whole (as it is called) are now considering, the details of the conference to which the noble Lord has referred, will have to be confirmed by the General Assembly this autumn.
§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, may I ask the Minister this question: Is not an agreement just as necessary for the Western nations as it is for the Third World? Would not the lifting of standards of millions of people in the world mean a demand for goods and less unemployment in our countries in the West? Could the noble Lord confirm two points? He informed me last week—and I was very glad to hear it—that the Government have agreed to make a donation to the main fund of around £5 million, and even a contribution to the secondary fund. Is he aware that these proposals have now been supplemented by the United Nations World Food Council, which has increased its food reserves to the Third World? Would he confirm these two points?
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, I cannot confirm the last point which the noble Lord has raised because I do not have the information in front of me, but I have no reason to believe that what the noble Lord says is not correct. As for the general assertion which he made at the outset of his supplementary question, that aid is beneficial to the donors as well as to the recipients because of the increased markets which are thereby generated, while that certainly is a consideration there are others as well, including our ability to find the money.
§ Lord HARMAR-NICHOLLSMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that, while the generalities contained in the Brandt Report may be impeccable in theory, many details will need to be filled in before it is put to a summit, where a disagreement on details would give an impression which would be even more dangerous than beginning to talk about it?
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, the Brandt Commission Report, which your Lordships discussed some weeks ago, is certainly a very important and weighty 1387 document, and we would want to give it very full consideration before reaching final conclusions on it.
§ Lord GLADWYNMy Lords, even before they have made up their minds on the individual proposals made in the Brandt Report, why cannot the Government say that they favour in principle a meeting of Heads of State or Government in January, as proposed by the French?
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, I think we want to be careful before making statements of that nature, which might raise expectations which could not in the event be realised.
§ Lord HATCH of LUSBYMy Lords, as the Minister has agreed that the implementation of the Brandt Report has an advantage to the industrialised nations as well as to the developing nations, would he answer the point raised by the noble Lord behind him, as to whether the British Government are now working on filling in these details which are so necessary to apply the Brandt Commission Report in practice?
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, I must repeat that we are not yet in a position to announce our conclusions on the Brandt Commission Report, but the considerations certainly go wider than the simple one which the noble Lord has often put; that it promotes the interests of our own industries here at home.
§ Lord GISBOROUGHMy Lords, could my noble friend bear in mind, before any further progress is made, that the Third World already owes 384 billion dollars and in 1981 will owe us 440 billion dollars, and that the only way in which this can be repaid is either by printing money or by bankrupting the banks?
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, I think my noble friend over-simplifies the position.
Lord ORAMMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that his answers this afternoon are in great contrast to the note of urgency that was struck by the Brandt Report; and, while we can accept that deep consideration has to be given to the issues 1388 in the Brandt Report, is it not equally necessary that they should be given urgent consideration? Will the noble Lord urge upon those responsible for these matters that that urgency should be appreciated? In reference to the last supplementary question from the noble Lord opposite, was not the question of the indebtedness of the Third World to the developed world the very critical issue which was raised by the Brandt Report? Far from being a reason for doing little, it is a reason for doing a lot, and quickly.
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, the question of indebtedness to the Third World was only one of the matters raised in the Brandt Commission Report, which, as your Lordships know, is a very comprehensive and lengthy document. But the Government will certainly reach their conclusions on this matter as soon as they reasonably can.
§ Lord PARGITERMy Lords, would the world be materially worse off if the debts were written off?
§ Lord TREFGARNEI have a feeling that is a catch question, my Lords.
§ Lord TANLAWMy Lords, will Her Majesty's Government take into consideration some of the omissions of the Brandt Commission Report—in particular, rural electrification of the developing world—and will this appear on the agenda which the noble Lord has discussed?
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, energy is one of the matters which will be considered by the conference which was the subject of the original Question.
§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, the Minister spoke of the difficulty of financial aid from this country. Is he aware that the proposed agenda for this conference is much more than aid? Is he aware that the agenda covers raw materials, energy, trade, development and finance, and that it is a matter of mutual trade rather than aid from the Western countries?
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, the agenda for this conference has not yet been agreed. I think the noble Lord is ahead of himself.