§ Lord HATCH of LUSBYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether any request has been received from the new Zimbabwean Government for British and other Commonwealth troops to remain in that country and, if so, what answer has been given.
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, Her Majesty's Government have been asked to provide a continued British training presence to help in the integration of the various forces in Rhodesia. We shall respond positively.
§ Lord HATCH of LUSBYMy Lords, will the Minister accept my warmest congratulations on the courage of the Government in taking the decision that they have taken since this Question was put down, particularly in view of the fact that the Prime Minister promised her party that British forces would not be deployed in any way in this exercise? Further, may I ask him whether he will consider, when the deployment of British military technicians and trainers is being decided, the very special requirements of this extremely complex situation in Zimbabwe today? It is not, surely, just the conventional Sandhurst type of training which is required. Does the noble Lord agree that what is needed most now are people with imagination and experience in putting together these contending armies, and in reducing the number of the army, which we have seen in Nigeria can be a grave civil danger—
§ Several noble Lords: Speech!
604§ Lord HATCH of LUSBY—and will he advise those who are putting together the British team that a great deal of detailed knowledge is required when they are selecting the military advisers?
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, I appreciate the kind remarks with which the noble Lord opened his supplementary question. I can say that General Perkins has already made a preliminary report to the Government and General Fursdon is now in Rhodesia and will be submitting a further report when he returns shortly. These two reports are likely to lead to the appointment of a British military adviser and training team, who will be ready to discuss this matter in depth with the Rhodesians right away.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, may I very strongly support what my noble friend Lord Hatch has said on this matter, and the appreciation which he has voiced, which I think is shared throughout the House, of the way in which the new Government and the new Prime Minister of Zimbabwe have looked to this country of their own volition for help in the scope and nature of their own security forces, which no doubt Zimbabweans themselves will indicate to our military personnel. Is it not most encouraging that in Zimbabwe, this vital part of Africa, there is this good feeling towards this country which we all wish to reciprocate in every possible way?
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, I am sure the noble Lord is right, but I want to emphasise that the form that the new forces in Rhodesia take, will of course, in the last resort, be a matter for the new Government of Rhodesia themselves.
§ Lord BOYD-CARPENTERMy Lords, in view of the exemplary conduct of the military personnel concerned, from General Ackland downwards, are the Government favourably considering the grant of a Rhodesia medal to all who took part?
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, we are considering it, but a decision has not yet been taken.
Lord PAGET of NORTHAMPTONMy Lords, in view of the observations of my noble friend Lord Hatch in deploring 605 the Sandhurst system, is it not a fact that, apart from asking for assistance in what is now Zimbabwe, they have asked to send officers for training to Sandhurst? So far as Africa is concerned, are not Sandhurst graduates very prominent in the later post-electoral development of African States?
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, I do not think that I want to be drawn into considering the different merits of various systems of officer training, but we shall be ready to provide whatever is appropriate in this case.
§ Lord HARMAR-NICHOLLSMy Lords, if my noble friend has any recommendations to make, will he insist that both the recruitment and the deployment are done mainly on sound military grounds, and will he not pay too much attention to the prosy observations of politicians, thousands of miles away from the point of action?
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, I am not quite sure to which politicians my noble friend is referring, and I sometimes think it is difficult to extricate politicians totally from this kind of situation. But, as I said, we shall be ready to provide whatever training and advice is appropriate.
§ Lord LEATHERLANDMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether, while serving in Rhodesia, these British troops will receive any overseas allowances?
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, we have yet to decide the nature and size of our team, which we will in due course send to Rhodesia. No doubt they will be paid the proper allowances.
§ Lord HATCH of LUSBYMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord one last question? As one who has spent a great deal of time with all sections of the forces in Rhodesia, may I ask him whether he will consider the advisability of helping the new Zimbabwe Government to set up training establishments in its own country, which have normally proved to be of more value than overseas training?
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, I am sure that the noble Lord is right. It will 606 certainly be our aim that the advisory team, which I think we shall in due course send, shall seek to establish training facilities in Rhodesia itself.