§ Lord BOYD-CARPENTERMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what action they have in mind to restrict the operation of very large vehicles in Central London.
§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTONMy Lords, my right honourable friend the Minister of Transport has no plans to restrict the operation of large vehicles in Central London. I should explain that such action is primarily a matter for the Greater London Council, as the strategic planning authority.
§ Lord BOYD-CARPENTERMy Lords, is it not the case that my noble friend's right honourable friend has final and reserve powers in this matter? On the merits of the case, is my noble friend aware of the fact that these enormous vehicles—many of them not coming to London, but simply passing through between the Midlands and the docks—Congest the traffic of Central London to a quite unacceptable degree, particularly during the rush hour?
§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTONMy Lords, on the first part of the supplementary question, I am not altogether sure what reserve powers—as my noble friend calls them—my right honourable friend has. In practice this is always a matter that is left to the GLC. It is estimated that of the heavy lorries that we see in London, possibly some 5 per cent. are on through journeys. What the Government are to do is to expedite the M25 and the orbital routes around 342 London which should, we hope, take a lot of congestion away.
§ Lord BOOTHBYMy Lords, does the noble Lord realise that unless some action is taken by somebody to curb the movement of heavy vehicles in Central London, traffic in Central London will very soon grind to a halt?
§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTONMy Lords, I said to my noble friend that we are expediting the M25 and the orbital routes as effectively as we can. I must point out to the House that although traffic may stifle us and slow us down a lot, if we do not allow into London heavy traffic which has business in the centre, we will take away the competitiveness of the city.
§ Lord DERWENTMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that most drivers of heavy vehicles do not like coming through London unless they have to do so; and that they come through London only because at present there is no alternative route on a decent road?
§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTONMy Lords, I am most grateful. That reply emphasises what I have been saying about the M25 and the other orbital routes around London.
§ Baroness SHARPLESMy Lords, can my noble friend give us any indication of the dates by which the orbital and other routes will be in operation?
§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTONYes, my Lords; I should like to tell the noble Baroness that we hope to have the orbital routes and the M25 in full operation by 1985.
§ Lord DAVIES of LEEKMy Lords, is the noble Lord telling the House that in this litigious society they have as quickly as that come to a decision about people's property and about building these mighty highways for these massive juggernauts?
§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTONMy Lords, I think that we are seeing the completion of what has been a 10 to 15 year planning effort, going back through many Governments.
§ Lord BOYD-CARPENTERMy Lords, will my noble friend draw his right honourable friend's attention to the fact that such progressively run cities as Paris and Rome have for some time operated restrictions of this kind? If the GLC are really not prepared to move, will not the Government do so?
§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTONMy Lords, I accept that Paris does certain attractive things in this respect. What we must remember is that it is very hard to enforce the laws when there is not a viable alternative for some lorry drivers. At the moment it is hard for some on through journeys to avoid going through Central London.