§ 2.45 p.m.
§ Lord SH1NWELLMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper. In doing so, may I join in the congratulations to the noble Lord the Leader of the House and comment on his remarkable statesmanship (which we would of course expect from him) during his sojourn in Rhodesia? It is only fair to say, however, that during his absence the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, has proved a very efficient substitute.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have received any representations from the Israeli Government, the Israeli Embassy in the United Kingdom or from the British Board of Deputies about the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary's recent declaration on the objectives of the PLO, and whether they will make a Statement.
§ Lord CARRINGTONMy Lords, I know that my noble friend, who has to go to the dentists, would, were he in the position at the moment of being the active Leader of the House, forgive the noble Lord for being outside the Rules of Order, and thank him warmly.
My Lords, the Israeli Government have made known to us their views on self-determination for the Palestinians and the Palestine Liberation Organisation. Representatives of Anglo-Jewish organisations will be calling on me shortly. There has 6 been no change in our attitude to the Palestine Liberation Organisation. We continue to believe that the PLO is an important factor, and will have to be involved at some stage in the peace process. At the same time we urge them to accept Israel's right to live in peace within secure and recognised boundaries.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, while thanking the Foreign Secretary for that Answer, may I ask him whether he is aware that one of the primary objectives of the PLO is to continue the war against the State of Israel, and that indeed they have repeatedly declared their intention of driving the State of Israel out of that area altogether? What comment would he make about that? Furthermore, has he in mind the possibility that, if there is too much encouragement of the PLO, it might revive the conflict in the Middle East; and that, if it does, the conflict might be more serious and more devasting than anything we have witnessed before?
§ Lord CARRINGTONMy Lords, I do not think that any progress in Middle East peace efforts is possible without an acceptance and a recognition by the Palestinians, and therefore by the PLO as well, of the State of Israel as a State. That is absolutely essential. Equally, I do not think it is possible to get peace in the Middle East without some recognition on the part of Israel of the rights of the Palestinians.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, may I very briefly but very strongly endorse what the noble Lord the Foreign Secretary has said? It is necessary to get everybody in the Middle East into peaceful, orderly discussion. At the same time, it is the policy of this country, whichever Government are in power, to sustain and secure a free, independent Israel.
Lord JANNERMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord to realise that, from the point of view of anyone who has any interest at all in the sovereignty of Israel, the PLO is one of the biggest dangers which not only Israel but the Middle East and we ourselves have to face? Is he aware that as recently as February 9th (I think it was) a categorical statement was made by Arafat in a Venezuelan newspaper that he is determined to 7 destroy Israel whatever happens and no matter how long it takes? Surely, the statements which are being made day by day in respect of the PLO are encouraging the PLO in this kind of action, even though expressions are used to say that we will wait until they recognise Israel? Surely, the line of action which is being taken by us and, with our guidance, by the EEC, is, with the greatest respect to the noble Lord, encouraging the PLO to make the kind of statement which, as I said before, only last February declared categorically that it will not rest until Israel is destroyed by violence? Surely one cannot expect Israel to accept a situation like that.
§ Lord CARRINGTONMy Lords, I do not believe—and I repeat this—that peace is possible in the Middle East until such time as the Palestinians and the PLO recognise the State of Israel; nor do I believe it is possible until the Israelis recognise the rights of the Palestinians. simply do not believe that one can ignore the PLO in this question. I would only say about the speeches to which the noble Lord referred that, if one looks objectively at what has been said on both sides about this issue in the Middle East, one sees that there have been some incautious remarks on both sides.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, is the Foreign Secretary aware that I have never at any time condemned the PLO because of its existence? I recognise that it is a fact of life. On the other hand, I object to its primary objective. I am not at all satisfied that either the Foreign Secretary in his recent declaration about the Middle East or the attitude of some members of the EEC, arc being satisfactory in the sense of recognising, definitely and emphatically and without any qualifications, the right of the State of Israel to exist in that area and not to be constantly under threat. Could I obtain from the noble Lord the Foreign Secretary an explicit statement that, so far as he and Her Majesty's Government are concerned, they will not agree to any change in the situation as long as it appears to impinge upon the sovereignty of the State of Israel?
§ Lord CARRINGTONMy Lords, if the intention of the PLO is the destruction of the State of Israel, I condemn that, also. 8 I think that I have made abundantly plain the position of Her Majesty's Government, which is an even-handed one as between one and the other in the hope that, if there is good sense on both sides, a settlement is possible.
§ Lord BYERSMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord the Foreign Secretary whether he sees a difference between the PLO and the Palestinian problem? Will he say—Yes or No—whether he regards the PLO as a terrorist organisation?
§ Lord CARRINGTONNo, my Lords, I do not think that the PLO, as such, is a terrorist organisation. There are some elements of the PLO which in the past have been associated with the terrorists; but it would be a great mistake to assume that it is possible to get a settlement in the area without taking into account the PLO.
§ Baroness GAITSKELLMy Lords, may I ask the Foreign Secretary a supplementary question following on the recent one? Is he not aware that when I was in the United Nations a couple of years ago I heard Yasser Arafat, when asked on New York television after his spectacular debut in the General Assembly, whether he wanted to destroy the State of Israel, say,"This is the first step "? Has he retracted that remark? He was definitely asked,"Are you out to destroy the State of Israel?"He said,"Yes, this is the first step ". Has he retracted?
§ Lord CARRINGTONMy Lords, I am not aware of that. If that is the object of the PLO, then I comdemn it.
§ Lord WIGGMy Lords, would the Foreign Secretary be embarrassed if I said that I wholeheartedly endorse the policy which he is following?—that of holding a balance between Israel on the one hand and the PLO on the other. Both must exist. Will he bear in mind when he is under constant pressure from Israel, and from Israel's supporters, that there would have been no Israel but for the valour of British troops who fought on the plains of Mesopotamia and in Palestine and who broke the power of the Ottoman Empire; and at the time of the second battle of Gaza, there were not six Jewish settlements in Palestine? Is he further aware of the fact that this country has enfeebled itself, its influence has been 9 reduced, its economic power all but destroyed, whereas at one time our sovereignty extended over large sections of the Middle East and British interests were well-regarded not only in the Middle East but on a world-wide basis? Is the Foreign Secretary not aware that that change has come about because of successive British Governments (including a Labour Government under Mr. Wilson) succumbing to the constant pressure of Israel's supporters in this country regardless of the interests of Great Britain?
§ Lord CARRINGTONMy Lords, I hope that Her Majesty's Government are keeping a balanced view on this subject. Certainly, what I have sought to say this afternoon is that I believe that both sides, with good will and with good sense, could settle this. I do not pretend that this will be easy, but it seems to me that if the Palestinians will recognise the State of Israel and if Israelis will recognise that the Palestinians have rights, too, then there is, in that equation, the possibility of a settlement.
§ Lord SEGALMy Lords, is the Foreign Secretary aware that the assumption of executive ruling powers by the PLO might well lead to a repetition of the regime of the Ayatolah Khomeini in Iran; and is not one Ayatolah Khomeini quite enough to be going on with?
§ Lord CARRINGTONMy Lords, we seem to be crossing a few bridges before we come to them.