§ 11.23 a.m.
Lord CAMPBELL of CROYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in preparing for necessary reductions of previously proposed future public expenditure, the system for selecting particular items can be refined.
§ Lord COCKFIELDMy Lords, the Government decide the necessary reductions on the basis of a comprehensive review of public expenditure. The forthcoming public expenditure White Paper, to be published on Budget Day, will reflect a careful judgment of priorities in selecting items for reduction.
Lord CAMPBELL of CROYMy Lords, I thank my noble friend for his reply, and applaud the Government's tackling, of this essential task. But is my noble friend aware of the strategem employed by some departments and public bodies of selecting for the axe items widely regarded as sacrosanct, in the hope that the subsequent outcry will save them? Will the Government issue guidelines to concentrate on reducing bureaucracy and eliminating waste, such as the overheating of public buildings? This would also have the beneficial effect of relieving the congestion in the correspondence columns of The Times newspaper.
Lord COCK FIELDMy Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for his helpful comments. We are aware, of course, of the allegation to which he refers, which has been made in a number of quarters, but Ministers are well aware of the risks which may be alleged to exist here and I have the utmost confidence in my colleagues' ability to deal with matters of this kind. So far as the size of the bureaucracy is concerned, the number of 1329 posts in the Civil Service—this is the central Government service—has been reduced by 25,000 since the general election, and plans which would involve substantial further reductions were announced by my noble friend the Lord President of the Council in your Lordships' House on 6th December. In addition, Sir Derek Rayner has given Her Majesty's Government invaluable assistance in identifying areas of waste and inefficiency, and steps are being taken to deal with them.
§ Viscount HANWORTHMy Lords, does the noble Lord agree that economies, and important economies, can be made by simplifying administrative procedures —for example, social benefits—and that that may be even more important an angle than cutting staff, which always causes some inconvenience?
§ Lord COCKFIELDYes, my Lords. The simplification of procedures and the promotion of efficiency is of the essence of the work which is being done by Sir Derek Rayner in collaboration with Ministers. There are undoubtedly important savings to be made in these areas.
§ Baroness GAITSKELLMy Lords, is the only way that the Conservative Government can think of economising by throwing men out of work? What are the Government going to do with these men? Are they going to be out of work all their lives?
§ Lord COCKFIELDNo, my Lords;that is not the right way to look at the problem. We have to look at reductions in public expenditure in the context of the Government's overall economic policy, which is designed to eliminate inflation, to reduce taxation, to improve incentives and thus to lead to a higher level of output and a higher level of employment. Had we followed the policies of the previous Government, which entailed higher expenditure and higher taxation, the future prospects for the British economy would he much worse than they are at present
Lord BRUCE of DON1NGTONMy Lords, before considering cuts in public expenditure which have a direct impact on the mass of the population of this country, will Her Majesty's Government give an 1330 undertaking that they will take effective steps to reduce the net deficit of the United Kingdom with the Community, with its £1,300 million deficit on the Community budget, which the noble Lord's right honourable friend the Prime Minister described only a few months ago as "our money"? Before replying, will the noble Lord bear in mind that it was the Conservative party in Opposition which, up to the time they became the Government, actually denied the existence of the deficit?
§ Lord COCKFIELDMy Lords, may I remind the noble Lord that it was the party opposite which renegotiated the terms of entry and claimed that they had come to a satisfactory conclusion—a claim which, in common with so many of their other claims, has been completely falsified by events? Nobody can give place to my right honourable and noble friend the Prime Minister in drawing attention to this problem, and, as she has repeatedly said, we are determined to find a solution which is satisfactory to the United Kingdom.
Lord MORRISMy Lords, would my noble friend not agree that one of the arts of government is the ordering of priorities? Furthermore, would he not agree that cuts across the board, which have been suggested, can hardly be described as a subtle demonstration of that art?
§ Lord COCKFIELDMy Lords, it is very important that reductions in public expenditure should be made by reference to individual programmes rather than by reference to cuts across the board. That is why it is important for the House to await the publication of the Public Expenditure White Paper before it is possible to pursue these matters in detail.
§ Lord LEATHERLANDMy Lords, in referring to the Prime Minister as his "noble friend", is the Minister trying to convey to us the fact that she is no longer Prime Minister and has come to adorn this House?
§ Lord COCKFIELDMy Lords, I am not aware of the fact that I did so;but, if I did, it was an inadvertent slip of the tongue. I used the phrase "my noble friend" in relation to the Lord President of the Council—which is entirely correct from both aspects of the phrase.
§ Lord KALDORMy Lords, is the noble Lord satisfied that it is part of the law of the Medes and Persians that a revival of the economy and an introduction of increased employment inevitably follow a policy of severe deflationary measures leading to high unemployment?
§ Lord COCKFIELDMy Lords, the important thing, and what is essential from the point of view of the economy, is to reduce the level of inflation. That can only be done by a firm monetary and financial policy. Reduction of public expenditure to an amount within the capacity of the country to pay is an integral part of such a policy.
§ Lord ELWYN-JONESMy Lords, has not the effect of the Government system of priorities been to achieve the greatest unhappiness of the greatest number?
§ Lord COCKFIELDNo, my Lords, that is quite untrue. If one casts one's mind back to the events before the General Election, the fruits of the kind of policy followed by the party opposite are abundantly and painfully clear.
Earl FERRERSMy Lords, we have had quite a lot of supplementary questions on this and, although I know my noble friend would be delighted to carry on answering them, in view of the fact that we have other business, I wonder whether it may be considered appropriate to move on.