HL Deb 06 March 1980 vol 406 cc400-3

3.26 p.m.

Lord VERNON

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will consider making representations to the Government of Brazil and appropriate other Latin American countries concerning the alarming rate of the destruction of tropical forest in the Amazon and Orinoco basins.

Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON

My Lords, the Governments concerned are aware of the environmental aspects of this problem, on which there is already significant international co-operation. We think that the strengthening of this cooperation—to which the United Kingdom is able to contribute much knowledge—is the best way to make progress towards a solution.

Lord VERNON

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that more than half of the remaining area of tropical forest in the world lies within the basins of these two rivers, and that it is being destroyed at the rate of 15 million hectares a year, which is equivalent to an area the size of England and Wales? Is he further aware that leading ecologists believe that that can have a very adverse effect on world climate and that therefore it is a matter that concerns all of us?

Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON

My Lords, I was not aware that the rate was actually 15 million hectares a year but, with the approved and the illegal felling, it could be that much;I do not know. I point out to the noble Lord that in that part of Latin America there are some 1,200 million hectares of tropical forest, so there is still a large amount. I think that we must accept that in that region there is an area which is exploitable, but that there will always remain a large area which is unexploitable. It is a problem and we are giving as much help and advice as we can to the relevant bodies.

Lord VERNON

My Lords, I should like to ask my noble friend one further question. Is this not a suitable matter for the EEC to look into, and is it not something which perhaps the noble Lord's noble friend the Foreign Secretary might raise at the next Council of Ministers, because joint representations from the Community would obviously be more effective?

Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON

My Lords, we are dealing with a nation's resources and we do not tell other countries how they should develop or exploit their own resources. Where there is a world scientific problem I take the view that the United Nations is the correct body to deal with such matters.

Lord GLADWYN

My Lords, are the Government aware that the present issue of The Ecologist magazine has a supplement which makes very compelling reading and should, I think, be read by every Member of your Lordships' House? Is the noble Lord further aware that there is a movement afoot on the part of distinguished scientists and others to make proposals whereby it might be in the interests of the Governments concerned —the owners of the tropical forests —not to cut down these forests?

Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON

Yes, my Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn. The contribution which the forests make to the world's ability to convert carbon dioxide into oxygen is a very complicated subject. The noble Lord mentioned The Ecologist. I have a great volume in my hand which is even more erudite and points out that the problem is by no means a simple one. As the noble Lord will be aware, the Governments in Latin America signed a pact in 1978 under the terms of which they have agreed to exchange scientific views and do research on the matter with a view to proper development and exploitation, coupled with proper conservation and, what is most important, the replanting and if possible the natural regeneration of these forests which, as the noble Lord pointed out, is in the interests of those countries.

Lord WYNNE-JONES

My Lords, no doubt the noble Lord, Lord Mowbray and Stourton, has been acting as a very competent pinch hitter for the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, in attempting to deal with this problem, but would he not care to go back to his earlier work with regard to conservation and realise that this is a most important international matter? Would he not agree, therefore, that it is quite urgent that the Govern-ment should use all their influence in order to have the matter dealt with properly? Would he not also agree that it would be quite disastrous if, as a result of deforestation, another part of the world had to demand aid and help?

Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON

My Lords, Yes;I appreciate the worries of the noble Lord, who has great scientific knowledge. But our information is that the scientific evidence at present available does not make it a matter of immediate international concern. We think that the short-term and local consequences of deforestation may well be more serious. Nevertheless, the possible global and long-term climatic effects are sufficiently serious to warrant more scientific investigation. We have had British technical co-operation officers serving in Brazil, and the Governments out there are most happy to accept our advice on some of these matters because we have a great deal of experience in the tropical forests and our Commonwealth Forestry Institute officials are very knowledgeable on this matter. It is not as though they do not wish to co-operate;I emphasise that they wish to do everything possible to help.

Lord SHINWELL

My Lords, does the noble Lord not find it surprising that Her Majesty's Government are asked to intervene in the Amazon and other forests in Brazil, but are not permitted to intervene in the steel strike?

Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON

My Lords, our intervention in the Amazon is purely in aid of scientific help and as part of the United Nations organisations. As the noble Lord will be aware, there is the Food and Agriculture Organisation and the United Nations Environmental Programme. Both that organisation and those taking part in that programme are pleased to use scientific advisers from all their Member States. That is the way we help.

Lord STRABOLGI

My Lords, will the Government also make representations concerning the protection of the Indians living in these forests, whose numbers have been considerably reduced in recent years?

Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON

My Lords, yes, the noble Lord is quite right. If all these forests were cut down, there would indeed be serious implications for the natives who live in them. But as I said, there will always be large areas of non-exploitable forest.