§ Lord BOYD-CARPENTERMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Questions was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what action they are taking to stop the export of subsidised food to Russia by or on behalf of the European Economic Community.
The MINISTER of STATE, MINISTRY of AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES and FOOD (Earl Ferrers)My Lords, the Government have made clear in the Council of Ministers their total opposition to such exports. We shall continue to urge our Community partners to prohibit sales of subsidised food to Russia.
§ Lord BOYD-CARPENTERMy Lords, while thanking my noble friend for that 2 reply, may I ask him whether he can confirm the statement made on the radio this morning that there are 12,000 tonnes of butter in this country which are about to be exported at a subsidised price to Russia? Would my noble friend agree that at a time when every effort is being made to bring home to the Russians the enormity of their performance in Afghanistan, it would be intolerable for them to be supplied with subsidised food from this country?
Earl FERRERSMy Lords, I have every sympathy with my noble friend. I did not hear the report to which he has referred but I can tell him this: it is our intention to persuade our Community partners not to allow subsidised food to go for export. However, in the event of our not being able to persuade them in that way, this country would be in breach of its arrangements with the European Community if we were to act unilaterally. However, if I may tell my noble friend this— he may well be aware of it already— there was so much concern within the European Parliament that the European Parliament not only threw out the budget but also passed a resolution in which they said they might retrospectively prevent the subsidy money being forthcoming.
§ Lord WIGGMy Lords, would the noble Earl be good enough to explain, if these surpluses of butter and sugar and the wine lake are not exported, what it is proposed to do with them?
Earl FERRERSMy Lords, that is precisely the reason why our partners in the European Community want to export these surpluses. Our only complaint is that it is wrong to send them to Russia.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, if the Minister did not hear the report on the radio this morning, perhaps by chance he saw the very circumstantial and detailed report by a reputable correspondent in the Daily Telegraph this morning, saying plainly that 12,000 tonnes of butter drawn from our storage portion of 27,000 tonnes in this country is to be offered to Russia. Would he confirm or deny that that is so?
Earl FERRERSMy Lords, if there is to be an export to Russia of subsidised butter and if subsidies are permitted, then it is not within our choice to prevent that butter going to Russia.
Viscount St. DAVIDSMy Lords, while appreciating that it is important that this butter, and indeed these other materials— all these unlikely mountains and lakes— should be sold and not given away, surely there are other markets in the world besides Russia which would be rather pleased to receive such things at a subsidised price from us? Can this matter not be looked into further? Also, would it not be a very good idea not to allow the Russians to have all this food, which in fact only has the effect of allowing them to divert men from their tottering agriculture to their arms industry?
§ Lord BOYD-CARPENTERHear, hear!
Earl FERRERSMy Lords, the situation is this: any butter which goes into intervention is Community butter, irrespective of the country in which it is held in intervention. The Commission have recently changed the system, and individual tenders now have to be made for individual consignments of butter. This did not happen before, and the proposals for the special sales of butter to Russia are in suspense for about two weeks because of the resolution which was passed by the European Parliament, to which I referred a few minutes ago. Within that general framework, the Government's sympathies are entirely with the view of the noble Viscount, Lord St. Davids, and 4 my noble friend Lord Boyd-Carpenter that it is wrong for the Community to sell subsidised butter to Russia.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Earl for the care he takes in answering this Question, which concerns Members on both sides of the House. Could he tell us whether the new tender system will result in a lower subsidy on the price to, for instance, Russia than the old system, which amounted to a subsidy of 50p per pound— a subsidy which would be most acceptable to the British housewife?
Earl FERRERSMy Lords, there are a number of questions in that. First, may I say to the noble Lord, Lord Goronwy-Roberts, over the subsidy to the British housewife, that is perfectly true, but it merely exacerbates the problem because if there is a surplus within the Community, however desirable it may be to subsidise the housewife, the real problem is to get rid of the surplus. The second point is whether the new system will change the rate of subsidy. I am bound to tell the noble Lord, Lord Goronwy-Roberts, that it will not change the rate but it will give the Management Committee — those are the people who authorise these sales— a chance to consider each tender and to vote on the tender. On every occasion the United Kingdom has voted against sales to Russia.
§ Baroness ELLESMy Lords, would my noble friend ensure, through our representative on the Management Committee, that the maximum price is accepted for the sale of butter? Is not the problem that low prices have been accepted for sales to Russia instead of the highest price available on the world market? Surely this is where the Commission needs very strict control by Members of our Government.
Earl FERRERSMy Lords, I can assure my noble friend that we are bringing every pressure we can to bear upon the Commission to prevent these sales. But as the House will appreciate, in the end, we are part of the Community and it is a Community decision. My right honourable friend the Lord Privy Seal, my noble friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs and my right honourable friend the Minister 5 of Agriculture have all tried to persuade the Commission against the sales. But I will certainly see that the point which my noble friend has made is drawn to their attention.
§ Lord PEARTMy Lords, did the Minister not consider giving old age pensioners butter at cheaper prices— a token policy— which was done under a previous Administration?
Earl FERRERSThat is perfectly true, my Lords; it was. I can tell the noble Lord that one of our great complaints at the moment is that the Commission is proposing that the 100 per cent. subsidy which we got on butter from FEOGA should stop. This is something from which Britain has benefited.
Lord ORAMMy Lords, will the Minister bear in mind that there is a well-established system of food aid in the world, whereby donor countries give surplus food to developing countries, and the money that is generated in those developing countries by the sale of that food is then used for internal development projects within the developing countries. If, as a result of the boycott of Russia, food surpluses emerge either in Europe or, as they may well do, in the wheat lands of North America, would it not be a practical proposition to enhance the system of food aid, thereby following up the boycott of Russia, helping those who are producing surpluses in America or Europe to dispose of their food and, also, do an enormous amount of good in the developing countries?
Earl FERRERSMy Lords, I think that that is certainly a point of view which should be looked at and, so far as possible, pursued. But in the end, of course, the food has to be paid for somehow, by somebody, and if we have a surplus the main thing to do is to get rid of that surplus. I would only repeat and re-emphasise, if there are noble Lords who are concerned that we, as part of the Community, should be exporting butter to a country which has been involved in Afghanistan in the way in which it has, that this Government are equally concerned and we are also concerned to try to stop it.
§ Lord WIGGMy Lords, the Minister has been good enough to tell us that the 6 subsidy is not really the problem; the problem is to get rid of the butter. So that is correct, and the Russians are doing us a good turn by taking the butter, and we are paying them to take it away for the simple reason that the amount we pay them to take it away is beneficial in relation to the cost of storing it. So is not this another example of the Government's utter muddle in terms of their relations not only with external countries, but also with the Common Market?
Earl FERRERSMy Lords, I was trying to follow the thread of the noble Lord, Lord Wigg. I cannot see that there is any reason for suggesting that the Government are in an utter muddle.
Earl FERRERSOf course they are not. With the greatest respect to the noble Lord, we are part of the Community and we are trying to encourage the Community to take the right action and not what we believe to be the wrong action. That is not muddle.
§ Lord BROWNMy Lords, is it not a fact that the only realistic attack on this problem is to get down support prices for food under the Common Agricultural Policy and thereby reduce the production of surpluses? Are not Members on the opposite Benches a little ashamed now of the continued caustic comments which they made on the efforts of Mr. Silkin to this end, while we were in Government?
Earl FERRERSMy Lords, I think that the remark which Mr. Silkin made over the week-end, in which he was quoted as saying, "Damn the Common Market", would not meet with the accord of the present Government. That is not our view. Our view— and I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Brown— is to try to restrict the products which are in structural surplus, and to that end we are content to see those prices not increased. What we are not content to see is the proposals of the Common Market acting unfairly against the United Kingdom, as opposed to other Members of the Community; and under their present proposals that is what is happening.