§ 2.50 p.m.
§ Lord HATCH of LUSBYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in view of the violence again being practised by the South African authorities, they will strongly urge the rugby union authorities to withdraw their touring team immediately.
§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTONMy Lords, I am sure that the recent tragic incidents in South Africa will have shocked everyone in this country and it is most unfortunate that the British Lions rugby team is playing in South Africa at this time. This only serves to underline the soundness of the advice given by the Government to the home rugby unions that this tour should not take place. But it must be for the rugby unions themselves to decide whether the tour should continue. They know full well the Government's view and I do not think that a further appeal would serve any purpose.
§ Lord HATCH of LUSBYMy Lords, while I thank the Minister for that Answer, may I ask whether he would agree that the Government have used far more publicity in their opposition to the attendance of British athletes in Moscow than they have to the tour of the Lions in South Africa? Would he further agree that this seems somewhat strange in view of the fact that the policy of apartheid, which we all abhor, directly affects the sport of rugby in South Africa, whereas the situation in Afghanistan hardly affects the conduct of sport in the Olympic Games?
§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTONMy Lords, far be it from me to start judging whether the apartheid in South Africa or the treatment of hundreds of people in various camps in Russia or the invasion of Afghanistan by the Russians add up and make whatever number they ought to make. I would say that in the case of the Olympics, there has been considerable reaction, as the noble Lord will be well aware, both at home and abroad and 1598 concentrated in a short period of time. Her Majesty's Government have been acting in this matter in concert with our international allies and, as such, our actions have naturally involved the Prime Minister and Foreign Secretary as well as the Minister for Sport. Moreover, there are several sports involved in the Olympic Games and the activities of Her Majesty's Government regarding the games are but one element in a package of measures. On the single item of the rugby tour, the Minister for Sport has represented the Government's views and has been publicly supported by the Prime Minister, too.
§ Lord BARNBYMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that probably a large proportion of the voters in this country deplore governmental interference in competitive recreation or sport anywhere? Is he further aware that in the Republic, vast numbers of non-whites as well as whites enjoy watching and indeed playing rugby football, which is there regarded as an illustration of national prowess?
§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTONMy Lords, I am aware that there has been some improvement in games in South Africa, but it is not sufficient, in the view of Her Majesty's Government, to warrant our going back to the Commonwealth with whom we made this agreement in 1977. The Government give advice to all; people tend to be selective about which advice they take and which they disregard.
§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, as a rugby footballer 70 years ago, may I ask the Minister if he is aware that rugby was then a religion to us which included playing with others whatever their race or colour? Is he aware that our opposition to playing in South Africa today is based on the fact that there are rugby players who are Africans who are as capable as any white players, as the Rugby League in this country shows, but who are not able to play for their country as anyone should have the right to do?
§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTONMy Lords, having been brought up at a religious Benedictine institution where rugger was second only to religion, I am 1599 well aware of what the noble Lord felt when he played 70 years ago. We are well aware of the sadness of the case that not all people can represent South Africa, and that is precisely why the Government have gone along with the Gleneagles agreement and completely supported the same view as the last Government.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, may I strongly support the intentions behind the questions put to the Minister this afternoon by my noble friends, but ask him whether he will confirm that now, as in the past, Her Majesty's Government equally denounce the actions in Afghanistan and in South Africa and equally advise our sportsmen to decide not to participate in the Olympics and in South African sports? Beyond that, will he confirm also that there is nothing but equal denunciation and equal advice passed on by the Government to our sportsmen in both cases? May I, in passing, hope that the noble Lord continues to enjoy rugby and Benedictine?
§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTONUnfortunately, my Lords, at my Benedictine place of education we did not get the drink of the name! I can assure the noble Lord that the Sports Council are in receipt of advice from the Government, which, according to their charter, must, as noble Lords opposite are aware, be taken. They are not, by Government advice, allowed to sponsor any events in South Africa or where official South African teams are playing, just as they are not allowed, by our same advice, to support anything going on in Moscow at the Olympic Games. The advice is the same in both cases.
§ Lord HATCH of LUSBYMay I bring the Minister back to my original Question, my Lords? While congratulating the Government on maintaining the stand taken by the Commonwealth in 1977 at Gleneagles, may I ask whether he would agree that in the present circumstances it would reinforce the advice that was originally given by the Government to the rugby unions if, at this very tragic time, that advice was repeated and the Government strongly urged the four rugby unions to recall their touring team in view of the violence we have seen in the past week in South Africa?
§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTONMy Lords, I find myself in my heart wanting to tell the noble Lord that I wish he would take our advice equally to heart on other matters. There are people being oppressed in Russia and there are occupation forces in Afghanistan. The rugby tour he refers to is three-quarters of the way through. We have given constant advice, but it has not been taken. I suggest it is very unfair that noble Lords should always concentrate on one side or the other; we give advice to both sides. I do not hear the noble Lord complaining about Olympic teams going to play with the Russians in Moscow.
§ Lord HATCH of LUSBYMy Lords, there is no apartheid in the selection of Olympic teams. May I ask the Minister to withdraw the allegation or suggestion he made that I am partial in the attempt to maintain full sporting contact irrespective of colour or creed, which is being debased in South Africa but which, so far as I know, has nothing to do with the selection of sporting teams in Russia?
§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTONThere are matters apart from occupation, my Lords. There are matters of intelligence and intellectual freedom not being allowed their sway. We are giving advice to both sides on this matter. The Barbarians and other rugby teams and any other body wishing to go to South Africa are strongly advised by us not to go. No Government hospitality or anything like that is forthcoming. The same pretty well applies to the Russians, because we do not think that the great Russian public should be allowed to believe that we do not disapprove strongly of what they are doing and have done.
§ Lord FERRIERMy Lords, would my noble friend agree that the great feature of rugby football, be it religion or what have you, is that you never know which way the ball is going to bounce?
§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTONThat is indeed true, my Lords.