HL Deb 20 June 1980 vol 410 cc1317-8

11.20 a.m.

Lord INGLEWOOD

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government why there are different rates of travelling and subsistence for witnesses travelling from Scotland to attend courts in England and vice versa.

The PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE, HOME OFFICE (Lord Belstead)

My Lords, where there is provision for the payment from central Government funds of travelling and subsistence allowances to witnesses in criminal proceedings the rates that are determined are broadly the same both in England and Wales and in Scotland. It is not always possible, however, for changes to the rates to be precisely synchronised.

Lord INGLEWOOD

My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for that reply, will he pay attention to this question in future, because nothing creates ill will more easily in a border area like the counties on either side of the Scottish border than that subsistence allowances or travelling expenses should be different whether one happens to live on one side or the other? There are plenty of examples where the Administration has brought such conditions about. I am glad to see that the noble Lord, Lord Peart, is nodding his head in agreement.

Lord BELSTEAD

My Lords, I am sure that the authorities on both sides of the Border will do their best. However, the answer to my noble friend's supplementary is that although the travelling and subsistence rates for witnesses follow those agreed by the Civil Service Department for the Civil Service, it takes some time to obtain clearance for and issue circulars to the courts notifying them of changes in the rates payable. The Home Office has sought to avoid unnecessarily adding to the burdens on the magistrates' courts by refraining from back-dating, whereas the Scots appear to adopt the date of the Civil Service increase. This creates some retrospective discrepancies between the two countries. In the context of that, certainly I know that everyone will do the best he can to meet the point which my noble friend is making.

Lord ELWYN-JONES

My Lords, will the noble Lord make sure that equal care is taken about the borders of Wales, to avoid any feeling of dissatisfaction or discontent?

Lord BELSTEAD

My Lords, I am delighted to say that in this matter there is perfect harmony between England and Wales.

Lord LEATHERLAND

My Lords, does the noble Lord agree that this is not a very important matter, because the Scottish witnesses would not trouble to claim their expenses?