THE WESTMINSTER MEDICAL SCHOOL (Hansard, 19 June 1980)

§ Lord SEGAL
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The MINISTER of STATE, DEPARTMENT of EDUCATION and SCIENCE (Baroness Young)
Her Majesty's Government have received a considerable number of representations against Lord Flowers' proposal that the Westminster Medical School should be closed. However, the noble Lord will appreciate that the Flowers Report was commissioned by the University of London and its recommendations are at present being considered by the university.

§ Lord SEGAL
My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Baroness for that reply. Would she confirm that, after all the various protests have been made and all the reports have been received, the final word will remain with the Government, whatever decisions may have been made by other bodies?

§ Baroness YOUNG
Yes, my Lords. The position is that the Flowers Working Party reported to the university and that the university will have a view on medical education. The overall provision of hospital services is of course another question altogether, and the final decision will be for the Government.

§ Lord REIGATE
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the Flowers 1200 Committee was assisted by the work of a body called the London Health Planning Consortium and that there were with the Flowers Committee two assessors from the Department of Health and Social Security? Do the Government accept responsibility for the information given by the department to the Flowers Committee, on whose report the suggestion to close down not only the Westminster Medical School but part of the hospital was based?

§ Baroness YOUNG
My Lords, I am aware of the work of the London Health Planning Consortium, but the noble Lord, Lord Reigate, will be aware of the answer that was given in another place on this matter, in which my colleague, Sir George Young, made clear that the London Health Planning Consortium is a body consisting of representatives of the University Grants Committee, the Department of Health and Social Security, London University, the four Thames regional hospital authorities and the boards of governors of the postgraduate teaching hospitals. It is submitting evidence to my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Social Services, but before he takes a decision upon this matter he himself will take the advice of the advisory committee which will be looking at the recommendations. It will therefore be some considerable time before any decisions at all are taken upon this matter.

Lord WINSTANLEY
My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware of the strength of feeling on this matter among doctors, nurses, other health service workers, patients and, indeed, potential patients—which means almost everybody? Is the noble Baroness also aware that the message from your Lordships' House the last time we discussed this matter was: no Flowers by request? Will the noble Baroness recognise that morale in this hospital will not be restored unless Government reassurances are much more positive than those we have so far heard?

§ Baroness YOUNG
Yes, my Lords, the Government are aware of the strength of feeling, and I have no doubt at all that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Social Services will take note of all that has been said in your Lordships' House.

§ Lord DAVIES of LEEK
My Lords, will the noble Baroness consider this supplementary question to be relevant to the answer which she has now given; namely, that there are rumours that the London School of Tropical Medicine is in danger of losing the position that it has hitherto held not only here in Britain but all over the world for its research? Can we be assured that the wonderful work of that place and its contribution to civilisation and health in tropical areas will not be lost because of paucity of funds?

§ Baroness YOUNG
My Lords, I think that the London School of Tropical Medicine is another issue. If the noble Lord will put down a Question on the subject, I shall try to answer it.

The Lord Bishop of LONDON
My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware of the very close relationship between the work of Westminster Hospital and King's College, London, and that the closing of the Westminster Hospital would have very serious repercussions upon medical teaching at King's College, London?

§ Baroness YOUNG
Yes, my Lords, am aware of this fact.

§ Lord SEGAL
My Lords, would not the noble Baroness agree that the present situation is highly unsatisfactory and that for the next few months energies which could be devoted to healing the sick will be diverted to public campaigning? Could not the Government, with their usual decisiveness, grant, if not a reprieve at least a 10 years' moratorium to both the hospital and the medical school to allow them to continue their valuable work unhampered by all these anxieties?

§ Baroness YOUNG
My Lords, I will certainly draw my right honourable friend's attention to the remarks which have been made. As I have already indicated, the working party under Lord Flowers was established by the university and it will be reporting to the University of London.

§ Baroness HORNSBY-SMITH
My Lords, is my noble friend aware, particularly as she raised the point about the educational interest of the report, that the standard of training at Westminster Hospital is reflected in the very high 1202 academic results which they get? I understand that they are top of the league table for the London hospitals in the passes they get. This is undoubtedly due to the smaller groups taught by the consultants, where they get to know their staff personally and where they receive closer and better teaching because they are not in some huge concourse. Big is not always beautiful. Would my noble friend bear in mind that we made the mistake of bigness in comprehensive schools and in some hospitals up North? Please do not let us repeat it with the Westminster.

§ Baroness YOUNG
My Lords, the London Health Planning Consortium's document Towards a Balance took account of, and was concerned with, the major strategic issues relating to the future framework for acute hospital services in London. It did not look in detail at all the ways in which services and research, particularly specialised services such as the one which my noble friend has described, should be provided within that framework. The planning of these specialised services will be for the health authorities, once the strategic decisions have been taken.