HL Deb 18 June 1980 vol 410 cc1141-52

3.59 p.m.

The MINISTER of STATE, MINISTRY of AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES and FOOD (Earl Ferrers)

My Lords, with the permission of the House, I will repeat a Statement which has been made by my right honourable friend the Minister of Agriculture in another place. The Statement is as follows:

"Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to make a Statement on the meetings of the Fisheries Council and the Agriculture Council that took place in Luxembourg on Monday and Tuesday of this week.

"My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland, my honourable friend the Minister of State and I represented the United Kingdom at the meeting of the Fisheries Council on 16th June.

"The Council had a friendly and constructive meeting and the main item on the agenda was to have a general discussion on the principles that should govern the allocation of catch quotas between member states on the basis of a background document prepared by the Commission.

"The United Kingdom made clear its view as to the importance of taking into account all the considerable losses in fishing opportunities for the United Kingdom fleet that had taken place in the seas of third countries. We stressed the importance of the special needs of local communities and the importance of recognising the proportion of the fish in the waters of member states that is found within United Kingdom fishery limits.

"We resisted a proposal that herring fishing be allowed in certain areas in 1980 contrary to the clear scientific advice.

"We agreed to an extension until 31st July of the interim decision on internal fishing srrangements, which requires Member States to control fishing activities by their national fleets having regard to the total allowable catches set by the Council.

"The Council agreed to the ratification of the framework agreements establishing fishery arrangements with a number of third countries. This will have no effect on current or future fishing arrangements.

"We refused to agree to the signature of an agreement with Finland which envisaged the possibility that Finland could obtain a catch of herring in the North Sea.

"There was an important discussion on the possibility of a long-term fisheries agreement with Canada and I pointed out that there could be serious implications for the United Kingdom market if unsuitable tariff concessions on fish products were to be granted to Canada at a time when our own market was already suffering from a surfeit of imports. The United Kingdom views were shared by three other delegations, and the Commission undertook to have regard to these concerns in the talks that they are going to have with the Canadian Government.

"The next meeting was fixed for 21st July, when, following a series of bilateral meetings by the Commission with a number of member states, including ourselves, more detailed proposals will be put forward to the Council.

"At its meeting yesterday, the Agriculture Council concluded its discussion of the text of the sheepmeat regulation, and at the United Kingdom's suggestion agreed that the structure of prices should be included in the one regulation. This will enable the new regime to be implemented as soon as possible after negotiations with New Zealand and other countries have been finalised.

"During discussion on structures, we argued for the early adoption of three Integrated Development Programmes, which include one covering the Western Isles of Scotland. The Council also had before it the new proposals for Northern Ireland, one dealing with agriculture in the less favoured areas of the Province and the other with the processing and marketing of eggs and poultrymeat. At my request, the Commission agreed to amend the second proposal to include pigs. The Council agreed that a high priority should be given to reaching agreement upon these various programmes with the object of the Council approving them at its meeting in July.

"The Council discussed the Commission's report on the effect on competition in the glasshouse sector of differences in energy costs. I emphasised the problems faced by our own glasshouse sector and urged the need for speedy action to secure fair terms of competition between producers in different member states. We were supported by a number of member states in our view that urgent action was necessary to eliminate the adverse effects of the gas price advantage Dutch growers were enjoying. At the end of the discussion the Commission agreed that urgent action was necessary and I hope that they will be making proposals prior to the July meeting of the Council.

"The Commission indicated that they intended very shortly to make their proposals for the future access of New Zealand butter after 1980 and stressed the judgment of the Commission as to the political, economic and social importance of providing New Zealand with realistic quotas for 1981 onwards.

"It was agreed that a special committee consisting of top officials should be set up to consider the Commission's proposals so that substantive discussion could take place at the July Council. I have asked Sir Brian Hayes, my Permanent Secretary, to represent me on this committee.

"The next meeting of the Council was fixed for 22nd July."

My Lords, that concludes the Statement.

Lord PEART

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for introducing the outcome of the discussions in Luxembourg. Going through them generally, I broadly support the proposals but I should like to pick out some points of emphasis here and there.

Mention has been made of Scotland and Scottish affairs. I understand that the Secretary of State for Scotland was at these discussions. That is quite right in view of some of the proposals which are later to be considered, and also especially because Scotland has some interest in fishery matters, probably larger in a way than ours, although, as has been mentioned, some of our local communities have been affected considerably. I understand the United Kingdom made clear its view as to the importance of taking into account all the considerable losses in fishing opportunities for the United Kingdom fleet that are taking place in the seas of third countries, and that the needs of local communities were stressed.

We had a small fishing debate just recently when the state of the industry was considered. It was suggested, though I do not know whether it will be taken up, that we should probably at some time—I do not say immediately—have a full debate on fisheries matters. I think the Liberals supported me on that when it was raised the other day. Of course, our great fishing communities—Grimsby, Hull and those on the Scottish coast—have faced great hardships. There has been a decline in fishing. So I hope that this will give hope and something will be worked out at the special Council meeting.

I gather that we agreed to an extension until 31st July of the interim decision on internal fishing arrangements which requires member states to control fishing activities by their national fleets having regard to the total allowable catches set by the Council. This is right and proper, and I support it strongly.

The noble Earl mentioned our refusal to agree to the signature of an agreement with Finland which envisaged the possibility of Finland obtaining a catch of herring in the North Sea. I hope that it was really on fishery grounds that we resisted this; I hope it was not political, because this is a small community, though there may be proper reasons why we cannot afford to allow them to catch herring in the North Sea at the moment.

I am glad there was an important discussion on the possibility of a long-term fisheries agreement with Canada. I understand that there could be serious implications for the United Kingdom market if we do not get a proper tariff concession on fish products granted to Canada at a time when our own market is already suffering. This was stressed by the Minister. The view was shared by three delegations.

Then we come to the question of sheepmeat regulations. I read The Times this morning and there is a heading, "More French Barriers on Lamb Imports Anger EEC Partners", so I do not think there is much hope in this direction. The French are pretty tough negotiators, but I hope we shall continue to press our own point of view. Here we come up against the problem of the access of New Zealand dairy products to our country. I hope there will be no weakening on this. New Zealand should have a proper share, as always, in our markets, and there should be no let up, as I have said on many occasions. I know I often get sentimental about this. New Zealand has played a great part in the British life, in war and in peace, and we must never let them down. I trust that the Government will stand firm on this.

I understand we are going to have three integrated development programmes—I welcome this—which will include one covering the Western Isles of Scotland; and also that there are to be new proposals for Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland have had their difficulties. I mentioned this on a previous occasion. I hope they will get fair consideration. In Northern Ireland they are going to have a programme dealing with agriculture in the less favoured areas of the Province; and another with the processing and marketing of eggs and poultry meat. Naturally, there has been another look at this and the Government have agreed to add pigs to it. The pig industry is very important in Northern Ireland.

Furthermore, we strongly support the emphasis regarding the glasshouse sector. Horticulture has often been badly hit. I feel that the Government have made the right decision here, and I wish them well on it. Mention was made of New Zealand butter, and I couple that point with what I said regarding the New Zealand interest. On the whole, what we have been told about is fairly satisfactory to this country, and I hope that the Government will see that action is taken and that it will filter through to the areas where it is needed.

4.10 p.m.

Viscount THURSO

My Lords, from these Benches we, too, thank the Minister for repeating the Statement, and we also thank the Ministers who attended the various meetings for the effort that they put into reaching the agreements which they have reached. I am glad that the meetings were on a friendly and constructive level, because it is very important to us, both now and in the future, that when we discuss these matters with our friends and neighbours and fellow members of the EEC, we should do so on a friendly and constructive basis, since we are all trying to get what is best for the Community.

I am glad to learn that the special importance of the needs of local communities was stressed in relation to the fisheries and to the proportion of the fish in the waters of Member States that is found within the United Kingdom fishery limits. This matter is of very great importance, as was stressed by the noble Lord, Lord Peart. It is of particular importance to Scotland and indeed to any parts of the Kingdom which depend, or at one time depended, largely upon fisheries.

I am delighted to see that the proposals for any breach of good husbandry in the management of herring stocks have been resisted. It is very important that we introduce into these discussions the belief that conservation is integral in terms of sharing out the plunder. In this connection, I wonder how certain the Minister is of success in the control of fishing activities of national fleets by the member states concerned. It is of great importance to the success of the Community arrangements that member states should be able to control their own fleets, and not let them get out of hand and so rub up the wrong way other members of the Community.

I am a little puzzled by the paragraph in the Statement which stated that the Council agreed to the ratification of the framework agreements which will have no effect on current or future fishing arrangements". I wonder what is the point of that? Perhaps the Minister can explain this rather abstruse paragraph. I am glad that we agreed to keep other people out of the North Sea until we have sorted out our own problems there, but I join with the noble Lord, Lord Peart, in saying that we very much hope that this is not taken as an attack in any shape or form on Finland. I am glad that it has been noted that it is important to resist dumping of fish, whether they be salmon, shellfish or white fish, by any country, especially Canada, particularly bearing in mind the fishery grounds that we have lost.

I am slightly puzzled by the paragraph in the Statement about the sheepmeat regulation. It is very hard to read any detail into this paragraph, and I hope that perhaps some meat can be put upon the bones of it. It is pleasing to think that whatever the result is to be, it will emerge quickly. This is important, because in Scotland it is being widely forecast that there will be a drop of £1 a head in lamb at the forthcoming lamb sales at a time when the farmer is being hard hit by inflation affecting all the things that he uses. It is important that, if possible, we solve this problem of sheepmeat before the autumn lamb sales, otherwise the whole structure of hill farming areas will be put at serious risk. I am not at all sure what is meant by that paragraph in the Statement.

With regard to the discussion on structures, I am delighted to see that an integrated development plan is being offered to the Western Isles of Scotland, but I wonder why the Western Isles are regarded as being so much worse off than the West coast of Sutherland or parts of Caithness. To single out one local authority area from all the others within the Highlands is perhaps not the best thing to do from the point of view of the Highlands. However, I agree that it is important that these programmes should be implemented as quickly as possible.

I am glad to note that people have agreed that it is necessary to eliminate the adverse effects of the gas price advantage upon other Members of the EEC. I wish the Government success in the continuing discussions. In particular, as a Scotsman in the Highland area and as, I must confess, a sheep farmer myself, I should like to see the sheepmeat problem resolved.

4.16 p.m.

Earl FERRERS

My Lords, I am grateful to both noble Lords for the general welcome that they have given to the Statement. These matters are always complicated and it is not easy to understand the details, but I shall do my best to elucidate some of the points to which the noble Lord, Lord Peart, and the noble Viscount, Lord Thurso, referred. The noble Lord. Lord Peart, spoke of Scotland. He mentioned that we have had a debate on fisheries and said that he was concerned about Hull and Grimsby and about how they had suffered from problems affecting the fishing industry. The same point was mentioned by the noble Viscount, Lord Thurso, who also referred to the effect that these problems have on local communities. The Government are fully aware of the real problem which the fishing industry has faced, and we are determined to try to secure a satisfactory common fisheries policy of a kind that will adequately reflect the needs of the United Kingdom as a whole. That is what we have been striving for over the past several months. We shall continue to strive for it, and I hope that there will be a satisfactory conclusion.

The noble Lord, Lord Peart, asked why Finland was refused permission to catch herring. There is a total embargo on all herring catches in United Kingdom waters and that is why we did not agree to Finland having an arrangement to catch herring; it was not because she is a small country. The noble Lord referred to Canada. Here the problem arises from the fact that we have an arrangement to fish in Canadian waters, and as a quid pro quo they are permitted a reduction in the tariff of imported fish products. This situation is causing quite a problem at the moment while our own fishing industry is going through difficulties and prices are low. It is for that reason that we wanted to discuss the matter further.

The noble Lord mentioned French sheepmeat and an article that he saw in The Times today. I point out to the noble Lord that the situation is that the French have introduced what I might call a further embargo on lamb going into France from other members of the Community. Of course, at the moment they do not accept lamb from the United Kingdom. The article which the noble Lord mentioned in fact refers to sheepmeat from other members of the Community. Of course this action is in contravention of European Community law, and I greatly hope that when the sheepmeat régime comes into effect all these limitations of access will be removed.

The noble Viscount, Lord Thurso, referred to the sheepmeat arrangements and he wondered what was meant by the relevant paragraph in the Statement. All I can tell him is that it means that it is our intention and desire and, indeed the Commission's desire, too, to get these operations working as quickly as possible. But it is dependent upon the agreement with the New Zealand Government. When that agreement is reached, then it will be possible to bring the new arrangements in with great speed. The noble Viscount also referred to the fact that he hoped that the members of the Community would each control their own fleets for fishing protection purposes. I agree that that is our desire. Indeed, we control our own fleets, as the other members of the Community control theirs.

The noble Lord, Lord Peart, and I think the noble Viscount, Lord Thurso, referred to New Zealand. The noble Lord, Lord Peart, said that he hoped we would stand firm. I can tell him that the New Zealand Government is at the mom- ent in consultation with the Commission in order to try to arrange access for future supplies of butter into the Community after 1980. It is our very sincere aim and desire that this should be allowed, because I agree entirely with him—and I think it is nothing whatever to be ashamed of that, as he says, he refers to this every time—that we in this country have great ties with New Zealand. We wish to see those ties maintained, and we realise fully the dependence which New Zealand has upon its agriculture and upon its sales to this country. If it is of any encouragement to the noble Lord, Lord Peart—and I think it will be—I would tell him that only last week, I think it was, I went down to Swindon to a new butter factory which was opened by a New Zealand company. It is a substantial one, which is an indication of the intention which they have and of the trust which they have in the future for access of butter into the Community; and it is our desire to see that they are properly and fairly treated.

Lord ROSS of MARNOCK

My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that the very mention of a common fisheries policy makes Scottish fishermen shudder? But I think they should be reassured by what the noble Earl has said today. The only agreement which has been reached is one in relation to the catch quotas, and an extension of that. On that point, is the noble Earl satisfied that the other nationals have got as good, as sophisticated and as accurate a system of checking a catch as we have? This is one thing that we have been very worried about indeed. Secondly, there have been suggestions that there should be a speeding up of negotiations in respect of a common fisheries policy, and even a suggestion of Britain being blackmailed in respect of the budget agreement that was reached by the Prime Minister. Will the noble Earl resist that, and will he, if necessary, show as much chauvenism, certainly so far as Scotland is concerned—I certainly will—as the French have in respect of lamb when it comes to the very important matter of our inshore fishing policies?

Earl FERRERS

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Ross, says that the mere mention of the words "common fisheries policy" makes Scottish fishermen shudder. All I can tell him is that it makes me shudder, too, because it is a very compli- cated matter; and when he says that other nationals have sophisticated equipment—

Lord ROSS of MARNOCK

We have.

Earl FERRERS

We indeed have sophisticated equipment to monitor catches; but, of course, the total allowable catch is agreed. What is not agreed is how that is going to be split up between the nations. Then the noble Lord asked whether I will give an assurance that we will not be blackmailed. Indeed, I can give him the assurance that we intend to do everything possible to see that the common fisheries policy is such as will meet the requirements of our fishing industry. Clearly there has to be change, and the noble Lord would be the first to accept that; but when he asks whether we will show as much chauvenism as the French have shown over how they deal with our sheepmeat, I am sure he would be the first to understand that it would not be appropriate for us to indulge in breaking Community law even if others do. But within the Community law we will do our best to see that the fishing industry is given the best possible opportunity to reorganise itself for the requirements of the future.

Baroness HORNSBY-SMITH

My Lords, in considering the fisheries problem, would my noble friend bear in mind that we also have a fishing industry down in the South-West, and that, in particular, they are bedevilled by the factory ships? I am particularly concerned about the monitoring, because it is one thing to make an agreement with the EEC countries and to hope that they will as scrupulously monitor the catches as our own people do, but it is a very different matter when you have ships from Eastern European countries—and we have seen Rumanian and Russian ships, and Portuguese and Egyptian ships—buying direct from trawlers so that they do not come through our ports. The fish is not landed here, where the authorities can check the extent of the catch, and also some ships fish on their own account when the shoals go beyond the 12-mile limit. What process is there to see that they, too, keep to the quotas and that they, too, do not take advantage of the catches when they come in? Because this is a very serious problem indeed for the South-West.

Earl FERRERS

My Lords, I realise that my noble friend is absolutely right when she says that many people in the South-West depend upon the fishing and that, like their colleagues in Scotland, they are worried about the fishing situation. But I would tell her this. The appearance of factory ships of itself is not wrong. We in this country are permitted certain quotas of catch, and it is our business as a country to ensure that those catches are not exceeded. Having caught the fish, then the fact that they are sold to factory ships is in fact an outlet which very often enhances the value of the fish, and therefore is not necessarily a drawback. If my noble friend Lady Hornsby-Smith says that these factory ships then go out and themselves catch within our waters, then of course that is a very serious matter and if she has any evidence of that I should be grateful if she would send it to me.