§ 2.47 p.m.
§ Baroness TRUMPINGTONMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government under what authority British Rail are refusing to make refunds on production of unused return tickets without documentary evidence of the alternative method of travel on the return journey.
§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTONMy Lords, I understand that the British Railways Board's Conditions of Carriage of Passengers give them discretion whether to allow refunds on unused tickets.
§ Baroness TRUMPINGTONMy Lords, may I, through the offices of my noble friend, ask whether the Government will request British Rail to state publicly the rules that they are now implementing, so as to avoid causing dismay to law-abiding citizens who, by the treatment they now receive, are made to feel like criminals?
§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTONMy Lords, my noble friend may be interested to know that a British Rail booklet, which is available on demand at any station, sets out the Conditions of Carriage of Passengers. Condition 13 states that the board:
do not undertake to make any return to passengers in respect of the value of lost, mislaid, or unused tickets, or of any fares which may be charged in consequence of the passenger's failure to produce a ticket when required. The board do not undertake to issue a duplicate of any ticket lost. Subject to the minimum refund amount and administrative charge from time to time in force, consideration will be given to applications for refunds in respect of unused tickets returned within seven days of the expiry of their validity".The British Railways Board have always included this condition in their small print, which I agree very few of us ever bother to ask for or to read. Since 1st May they have been requiring people who send in tickets to provide documentary evidence; someone must sign a statement that he was in charge of a vehicle in which the passenger travelled 165 the journey concerned. British Railways estimate that they have been losing at least £1 million a year through frauds of this type, and it is in this context that I ask your Lordships and my noble friend to accept British Railways' attitude to the case.
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, may I ask the Minister whether it is a reasonable requirement, and whether the Government ought not to do something about it? I suspect that it is many decades ago that those regulations were adopted by British Rail, and I think one must bear in mind, and it should be pointed out to them, that return rail fares can now amount to £6, £7, £8, £9 or £10, or even more. We are not dealing with just a few pence these days; we are dealing with many pounds. Provided the return ticket can be sent to them unclipped, I should have thought that that was as much evidence as they were entitled to ask for.
§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTONMy Lords, I understand that the British Railways Board are advised that they are being cheated to a considerable extent—they estimate over £1 million a year—by people managing to get through barriers without handing in their tickets. They consider that if you do the journey in another vehicle, it is not unreasonable to ask for a signed statement saying that. It is merely an aid in attempting to stop what they consider may be rather massive cheating.
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYMy Lords, there is also this point to bear in mind, that these days, in point of fact, many railway stations are not manned at night, due mainly to vandalism; and is the noble Lord aware that many people walk through stations with tickets in their hands which have not been clipped because at Charing Cross and other stations they do not clip them anyway?
§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTONMy Lords, I am sure the noble Lord is not suggesting that because a ticket has not been collected he is entitled to try to collect a refund.
§ Baroness TRUMPINGTONMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend how he would 166 distinguish between a fake letter written by the person himself and a genuine letter written by the carrier of the person?
§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTONMy Lords, I understand that the British Railways Board recognise the validity of what the noble Baroness is saying, but, nevertheless, they still consider that the extra effort required to get someone to sign a false document will be sufficient to help save them from enough false claims as to make it worth while.