§ 3.11 p.m.
§ Viscount HANWORTHMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they realise that in order to meet the last Government's programme of improved thermal insulation in buildings the glass fibre manufacturers invested some £80 million in capital equipment; and that due to this Government's failure to pursue this most cost-effective method of energy saving two companies have announced redundancies of between 10 and 20 per cent. of their workforce.
§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTONMy Lords, the Government are continuing to promote loft insulation by providing grants under the Homes Insulation Scheme which, with the additional help for the elderly on low incomes to be implemented very shortly, will amount to £16–7 million in 1980–81.
§ Viscount HANWORTHMy Lords, while I thank the noble Lord for that reply, and in spite of the small amount of help that he tells us the Government have given, would he think it unfair to say that the Government really seem to have 1588 shown no enthusiasm, or practically none, for the most cost-effective energy saver that we can have, which is insulation? Would he also agree that the problem that I have raised in my Question could be very easily solved if the Government would improve the insulation standards in the building regulations, which they seem quite unwilling to do?
§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTONMy Lords, I appreciate the noble Viscount's ever ongoing concern for this subject. I seem to have been answering his Questions on this subject for some 10 years. We are very well aware of the importance of energy saving. Realistic pricing is part of our concern and we are doing everything we can to encourage it. The noble Lord and the House must be aware that last year we allocated some £24 million, but only about half of that amount was taken up. Therefore, it is not unfair to say that we are being rather unfairly criticised. We never undertake to do everything. We undertake only to give a prod to people to show them the way and to help them a little.
On the last part of the noble Viscount's Question, dealing with the insulation scheme, only this week the Association of District Councils has written to my right honourable friend at the Department of the Environment saying how much it welcomes the freedom to decide its own standards in the building industry. We like local councils to build their houses as they wish.
§ Lord STRABOLGIMy Lords, in view of what the noble Lord has said, why is it that the Department of the Environment's new proposals do not include any requirement for floor insulation? Why do they allow, for example, architects to trade off wall insulation against roof insulation? How does the noble Lord think that this will help the nation's conservation programme?
§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTONMy Lords, as I have just said, we are leaving it to the local authorities which are building the houses.
§ Lord STRABOLGIMy Lords, is the noble Lord not aware that these are the Department of the Environment's own proposals? Does he not realise that?
§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTONMy Lords, the Department of the Environment has published a consultative document and regulations will be issued as advice to the building trade at the end of the year. As the noble Lord is aware, this is an ongoing situation.
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, what action is the department taking to encourage local authorities, or by alteration of or amendment to the building regulations, to ensure that insulation is included when domestic and business premises are being built? It is very much cheaper to include insulation then than to build it in at a later stage. Why cannot building regulations be altered to ensure that every building built today is built to the requirements of insulation standards?
§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTONMy Lords, we are giving every encouragement to local authorities. The department sends out messages and circulars to all industrial builders and users. We cannot do more. We are not a complete nanny and mummy to industry; we leave them to do something for themselves.
§ Lord TANLAWMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that in this period, when every local authority and building company is trying to cut costs, the absolute minimum of insulation will be incorporated into new buildings unless the building regulations are changed?
§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTONMy Lords, industry is trying to cut its own costs to save its own money. Heating buildings and keeping them cold in summer is expensive. Therefore, it is in industry's own interest to use insulation and it will do what is wise from the point of view of its own pocket.
§ Viscount HANWORTHMy Lords, will the noble Lord agree that matters cannot always be left to local authorities and others? If that could be done, we would not have had planning regulations and all the rest. We are building new houses for the future, and it is not good enough to say that it is simply to be left to the people on the ground, who are under many other pressures. Will the noble Lord not agree that this is a useless sort of approach?
§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTONNo, my Lords, I would not. I also do not agree that local authorities do not know how to build houses.
§ Lord STRABOLGIMy Lords, are the Government aware that due to their lack of action, companies manufacturing insulation materials are laying off men and that there are very heavy redundancies now in employment? Do they think that this is consistent with their policy of trying to conserve energy, with the ever-increasing costs of petrol?
§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTONMy Lords, it is not for the Government to tell insulating companies how to invest their money. If they took an incorrect view of the commercial prospects, that would not be the Government's fault. I would also point out that the firms concerned can help themselves by having a more positive sales policy to encourage the public to take more interest in this subject.
§ Lord SOAMESMy Lords, I suggest that perhaps we should move on to the next Question.