§ 2.48 p.m.
§ Lord STEWART of FULHAMMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether Greek students entering higher education in Great Britain this autumn will be required to pay full overseas students' fees or will be treated as EEC students.
§ The MINISTER of STATE, DEPARTMENT of EDUCATION and SCIENCE (Baroness Young)My Lords, Greek students beginning courses on or after 1st September this year will be liable to pay full cost fees. The intention is that these students should be treated as EEC students and thus qualify for the home rates of tuition fee with effect from 1st September 1981.
§ Lord STEWART of FULHAMMy Lords, as Greece adheres to the Community on 1st January 1981, ought not these students to be entitled to pay EEC rates at least for two terms out of three in the coming academic year?
§ Baroness YOUNGMy Lords, tuition fees are fixed for a full academic year and it is not regarded as appropriate to make this distinction in the first year. They will be on home fees as from September 1981.
§ Baroness DAVIDMy Lords, I should like to ask the Minister whether the fees are collected for the whole year in one sweep. Surely they are paid termly, in which case it would be perfectly easy to make a different arrangement?
§ Baroness YOUNGMy Lords, it is a Government decision that the home fee will be charged after the accession of Greece to the EEC, which takes place in January 1981. From September, for the next academic year, they will be treated as home fee payers, but for this year it has been decided that they must pay the full overseas fee.
§ Lord NUGENT of GUILDFORDMy Lords, can my noble friend tell the House whether, in the event, the sharp raising of fees to overseas students has seriously decreased the number entering? Is it not a fact that the number of applicants has not fallen all that far below what it was before? Perhaps it is a reflection on the value of what they get here?
§ Baroness YOUNGMy Lords, the latest retuns from UCCA show that there has been a drop of 12 per cent. compared with the number of applications for March 1979, but the drop is only one of 6 per cent. compared with the number of applications in 1978. I think that it reflects the statement of the noble Lord, that university education in this country is of excellent value.
§ Lord CHALFONTMy Lords, at the risk of seeming to be simple-minded, may I ask why, if the fees are fixed from the beginning of the academic year, they cannot be fixed on the basis that on 1st January 1981 Greece will be a member of the Common Market?
§ Baroness YOUNGMy Lords, the fact is that the cost of a concession to Greek students in 1980–81 would be £1–5 million, and this is a matter which we have decided we cannot accept this coming year.
§ Lord KALDORMy Lords, as Greece will become a member of the EEC in the middle of an academic year, cannot the Government split the difference and charge a proportion of the EEC fees and the other fees?
§ Baroness YOUNGMy Lords, I have noted what the noble Lord has said. It is, of course, true that all other EEC students will pay the home fees as from this September, but we have taken a decision on the Greek students.
§ Lord STEWART of FULHAMMy Lords, when the noble Baroness says that it will not be appropriate to deal with the fees on a yearly basis, by that does she mean anything more than it has not been done before and that she lacks the imagination and generosity needed to deal with this problem?
§ Baroness YOUNGMy Lords, I think that we shall deal with the problem better by not using exaggerated adjectives in connection with it. The fact is that tuition fees are fixed from the beginning of the academic year.
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, in view of the feeling all round the House on this subject, can we ask the noble Baroness to use her very great persuasive powers with her colleagues to change the zenophobic approach which has been taken on this subject, including our own Commonwealth?
§ Baroness YOUNGMy Lords, I am very well aware of the strong feelings of this House on the whole subject of overseas students. We had a major debate on this matter before Christmas in which the Government's policy was set out. As I have already indicated, we have gone into this matter very thoroughly. We have come to a decision that we can offer the home fees to Greek students once Greece is a member of the EEC, which will be in January 1981. We have looked at the financing of this and have come to 1421 our conclusion on the basis of the costs that would be saved. We believe that we have made the right decision. As always, we shall note what the House of Lords says.
§ Baroness DAVIDMy Lords, will not the Government take a fresh look at this whole subject in the light of the Third Report from the Foreign Affairs Select Committee, which has just reported and which is highly critical of the present policy?
§ Baroness YOUNGMy Lords, I think that the most encouraging sign about our present policy is the number of applications that we still receive from overseas students. Perhaps I might remind the noble Baroness that if the numbers of overseas students dropped considerably more than they have done, they would only then reach the number of overseas students that the former Administration expected to have in our universities next year.
§ Lord GLADWYNMy Lords, is not the estimate of the number of applications purely provisional? Surely there is no reason to attach undue importance to it, as it may be one way or the other in a month or two's time.
§ Baroness YOUNGMy Lords, I can answer questions only on the basis of the facts as we know them, but we have no reason for thinking that the position this year is other than as I have described it.