HL Deb 24 July 1980 vol 412 cc511-3

3.15 p.m.

Lord BARNBY

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, as a member of the Committee of Five of the United Nations with regard to South-West Africa, they regard SWAPO as meriting the status for negotiation as truly representing a section of the South-West Africa community, since it is now clear that SWAPO is financed, armed and directed by Russia and its surrogates.

Lord TREFGARNE

My Lords, SWAPO has long been recognised as a party to the United Nations settlement plan for Namibia. There are a number of political parties competing for support in Namibia. The question of how much support each enjoys is for the Namibian electorate to decide.

Lord BARNBY

My Lords, may I ask the Minister whether any credibility can be given to this morning's reports in the press—particularly in the Daily Telegraph—which show that SWAPO is in complete disarray? While the internal section may represent some part of the community of South-West Africa, the external section, which is supported by the United Nations and Russia, is necessarily in conflict with the Republic of South Africa. Does it not put the United Kingdom in a difficult position, through its membership of the Committee of Five, in that it appears to put the United Kingdom in confrontation with the Republic of South Africa on this subject?

Lord TREFGARNE

I think not, my Lords. As a member of the Five, to whom my noble friend referred, we are seeking to secure a negotiated settlement of the Namibian question. That means that it would be very wrong not to have regard to the views expressed by SWAPO, particularly bearing in mind that they are, of course, one of the parties taking part in the most unhappy military actions that are going on in that country.

Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, quite apart from the acceptability of SWAPO to the United Nations for the purpose of negotiating the independence of South-West Africa, would it not be wise to follow the same procedures as proved so signally successful in Zimbabwe; namely, to introduce into the negotiations all organisations which substantially represent any sector of opinion within the country concerned? While SWAPO is, as the Minister has reminded us, by no means the only organisation, nevertheless, it is one of the major organisations that speak for the people in Namibia and therefore ought to be included in any meaningful and successful negotiations.

Lord TREFGARNE

My Lords, I think that the noble Lord is quite right, to the extent that it is important to involve SWAPO in the discussions which I hope will lead to a peaceful settlement in Namibia. But, at the same time, I should like to hesitate before drawing too many parallels between the situation in Namibia and the situation in Zimbabwe.

Lord SHINWELL

My Lords, leaving aside the views that many of us may hold about the policy adopted by the South African Government, are we to under- stand that our representative at the United Nations never protests against the Soviet Union financing and directing the operations of these so-called irregular forces in this area? Are we to understand that the Soviet Union can do as it likes in Czechoslovakia, Afghanistan, Angola and all the rest of them? What does our representative at the United Nations do—sit on his bottom and say nothing?

Lord TREFGARNE

My Lords, as I said earlier, we are seeking to achieve a negotiated settlement of the situation in Namibia. We certainly hope that the war, to which I referred earlier, will soon be brought to an end, and we think the best way to do that is by consultation and negotiation.

Lord SHINWELL

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that one of the reasons why I asked the question was that I discovered to my astonishment yesterday that, if the press reports are accurate, our esteemed—and I emphasise the term "esteemed"—Foreign Secretary has now undertaken a U-turn and has decided that, instead of speaking in terms of confrontation with the Soviet Union, he is speaking about the desirability of conciliation and détente? What does all this mean?

Lord TREFGARNE

My Lords, that is an interesting thought, but it rather departs from the Question on the Order Paper.

Baroness GAITSKELL

My Lords, is it not understandable? Here is a country which wants its independence. Should we not, and should not the noble Lord, Lord Barnby, who is a wonderful example of British manhood and who appreciates British freedom, understand that these people would like to get aid and to become independent from any country? They have got aid from Russia. When we do not come up with aid, is it not understandable that they should get it from Russia? We should not forget that in the last war Russia was our ally and might well be our ally in the next war.

Lord TREFGARNE

My Lords, that is an interesting thought, but again it is away from the Question on the Order Paper.