HL Deb 23 July 1980 vol 412 cc384-8

2.54 p.m.

Lord SHINWELL

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have estimated the expenditure involved in converting several modern deep-sea trawlers as a supple- ment to our naval strength, and how such an estimate compares with the cost of constructing new vessels.

Viscount LONG

My Lords, our investigations show that the capital costs of second-hand vessels, including the costs of refitting and conversion, tend to be somewhat less than new construction. However, the experience of much higher support costs and greatly reduced life expectancy of second-hand ships greatly outweighs the initial cost advantage and leads to higher through-life costs.

Lord SHINWELL

My Lords, is the noble Viscount aware that I regard that Answer as indicating undue complacency? Does he realise that some of us are not critical of the Government's defence policy, but are trying to be helpful? Does he not realise that these very modern trawlers are very adequate, with remarkable speed? All require armament equipment, which can be provided at no great cost. Is it not far better, from a maritime point of view, in the event of an emergency affecting some part of our oceans, that we should have a fairly large number of small vessels of modern type, rather than rely on some large carrier built at huge cost which could be blown up in an instant or two? Why do the Government not realise that we are trying to do something to supplement our naval strength, which is far from satisfactory at the present time?

Viscount LONG

My Lords, I appreciate what the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, has said, but the cost of second-hand vessels would depend upon their age, condition and other relevant factors. Clearly, the older and poorer the quality of the second-hand ship, the greater would be the cost of conversion. However, we would expect the combined purchase and conversion costs of secondhand vessels to be a little less than the capital cost of new purpose-built minesweepers. Many of these trawlers that, unfortunately and regrettably, are now lying idle in ports around the British Isles are fairly old and in not very good condition after the hammering that they have taken from their sea fishing projects in the North Sea.

Lord SHINWELL

My Lords, does the noble Viscount realise that, when he mentions age, I regard that almost as a personal rebuke? Age has nothing to do with it. What matters is whether it has viability, and whether the Government are prepared to inject the necessary armaments. I am almost beginning to believe that the Government do not even understand the nature of the problem and that worries me, just as the defence position worries me. Will he convey to his noble friend, for whom I have a very high regard and who, I think, is doing his job very well, the fact that I will not be content with that kind of Answer?

Viscount LONG

My Lords, it is very difficult to help the younger generation of your Lordships' House or to please them, but the noble Lord is quite right. He wants to help and he is doing just that. I will convey to my noble friend Lord Strathcona what he has said, and no doubt my noble friend will also be reading the report of what the noble Lord has said. Nevertheless, there is a problem with these vessels. They are not in a very good condition and would cost a certain amount of money to convert, in order for them to be efficient, which might out-balance the cost of the new vessels.

Baroness HORNSBY-SMITH

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that hundreds of trawlers from Eastern European countries are fitted with the most sophisticated detection equipment which not only can detect missiles, submarines or mines, but are so advanced and sophisticated that they can differentiate between one species of fish and another? If they can do that as an ancillary, possibly, to using them with additional armaments, could we not consider this proposal a little more carefully?

Viscount LONG

My Lords, I am afraid I must say to my noble friend, that her question relates to fishing and not to the conversion of these vessels, which is what the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, originally asked about.

Lord BLYTON

My Lords, is the Minister aware that in the First World War trawlers were used with great efficiency in minesweeping. They were ordinary wooden vessels. We called it Harry Tate's navy. Does not the Minister think, in the present context, that we ought to be protecting our fishing industry within a 20- or 50-mile radius of our shores and that therefore we ought to take these big trawlers and man them to protect our shores?

Viscount LONG

My Lords, I am still on the same Question regarding the conversion of trawlers. I am afraid that I have to stay on that Question.

The Earl of KIMBERLEY

My Lords, could I ask my noble friend whether the Government would consider, as a guideline for all future merchant ships and trawlers that are launched, that they should have the necessary reinforcement built into them so that they could be armed very easily in the future?

Viscount LONG

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for that question and no doubt it will be looked at. However, I do not see that it is relevant to the Question which I have been asked.

Lord HARMAR-NICHOLLS

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that my noble friend Lady Hornsby-Smith asked: if other countries have found it possible to convert trawlers and make it worth while, why cannot we? There may be a good answer. The question that my noble friend asked is relevant and I think that it deserves an answer.

Viscount LONG

My Lords, I come straight back to the Answer which I gave originally: it is far too costly to convert some of these trawlers which are in a very bad way. No doubt the Government would very much like to convert them, but they would be sinking rather than swimming.

Lord MISHCON

My Lords, is the Minister informing the House of the result of a survey and an analysis of this problem, or has he merely been guided in general terms? If the latter, does he not think it worth while that there should be a more detailed examination before the House drops the idea, which seems to be extremely sound to most of us?

Viscount LONG

My Lords, I must apologise to the House if I conveyed that message. In fact, the Government are looking at some of the ways of using these trawlers and considering whether it is possible at all; but it is in balance at the moment.