§ 6.12 p.m.
§ Lord LYELL rose to move, That the draft order laid before the House on 14th July be approved.
§ The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move that the Carriage of Passengers and their Luggage by Sea (Interim 454 Provisions) Order 1980, a copy of which was laid before your Lordships' House on 14th July this year be approved.
§ Last year's Merchant Shipping Act included various provisions to give effect to the 1974 Athens Convention relating to the carriage of passengers and their luggage by sea. This convention, which is set out in full in Part I of Schedule 3 to the Act, sets out the circumstances in which a carrier is liable for death of, or injury to a passenger, or for the loss of, or damage to his luggage, and it also specifies the monetary limits which will normally apply in the various circumstances. In the case of death or personal injury this sum will be over £27,000. The United Kindgom ratified the convention in January of this year, but we are only the fourth country to do so and 10 ratifications are needed before the convention comes into force. It will, therefore, not be possible to give full and immediate international effect to this convention. However, in the interim period before full international recognition, the House will appreciate that the Government are anxious to apply as much of the convention as is possible in the United Kingdom and have therefore decided to introduce the interim régime which was envisaged in Section 16 of the 1979 Merchant Shipping Act. That, in in general terms is the objective and reason for this order.
§ This order, made under Section 16 of the Merchant Shipping Act 1979, therefore gives effect to such provisions of the convention as can appropriately be implemented in the United Kingdom without delay. It applies the convention (with necessary modifications) to international carriage if the contract is made in the United Kingdom or if, under the contract, the United Kingdom is the place of departure of the passenger or the destination to which the passenger is going. Domestic carriage to or from ports in the United Kingdom and the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man is also to be included. In all cases the carriage in question is that covered by contracts for reward only, as specified in the Act.
§ The proposed interim régime will replace that which is currently in force under Section 28 of the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977. This temporary régime 455 was necessary so as to provide quickly a safeguard for the interests of passengers, and the Unfair Contract Terms Act provided a convenient opportunity to take initial action. However, the new régime offers important advantages over the present situation, and I hope that the House will bear with me while I briefly outline these advantages. The first, and major advantage is that the current régime only applies to aspects of the Athens Convention which are the subject matter of contracts made between the carrier and the passenger. It does not deal with matters such as the liability of the person who contracts for carriage but does not himself actually perform the carriage. The new régime will deal with this situation. For example, it would cover the position where a contract is made through a tour operator or indeed an agent. Similarly, servants and agents of the carrier will be brought within the ambit of the new régime whereas at present they are not covered.
§ The second advantage is that, there will be wider geographical coverage under the new régime since, as I have already mentioned, it will cover domestic as well as international carriage. The third advantage is that the order will enable effect to be given during the interim régime to certain other provisions of a clarificatory and supplementary nature, as contained in Part II to Schedule 3 to the 1979 Act. One of these supplementary provisions is particularly worthy of mention in this context. This is the provision in paragraph 11 of Part II enabling the Secretary of State for Trade to make an order requiring notice to be given to passengers of the main provisions of the convention so that they may make whatever arrangements for personal insurance they wish. It is the intention of the Secretary of State to make such an order to take effect simultaneously with the order before us today. In most cases, in future passengers will have their attention drawn to the application of the convention on the ticket they receive before departure, as is now the case for air tickets where the relevant international convention is the Warsaw Convention.
§ The actual limits of liability which are expressed in the convention in terms of what are known as gold francs will be converted into sterling equivalents by 456 means of periodic orders by the Secretary of State, as is already done for the Unfair Contract Terms Act and certain other Acts where a similar situation applies. In due course the gold franc limits will be replaced by limits expressed in terms of the IMF special drawing right, but the relevant international instrument for this is not yet in force.
§ The order that I have set before your Lordships' House is fairly detailed, but I think that it is uncontroversial. As I have said, it is a second interim step to implement various provisions of the Athens Convention into United Kingdom law. We believe that it will enable us to meet more and more of our international commitments and, in addition, it will have useful advantages to passengers travelling away from the United Kingdom, to the United Kingdom and indeed within the United Kingdom. For that reason and for the others which I have enunciated, I commend the order to your Lordships' House. I beg to move.
§ Moved, That the draft order laid before the House on 14th July, be approved. —(Lord Lyell.)
§ Lord UNDERHILLMy Lords, I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Lyell, for his explanation and particularly for outlining the advantages of the order. No one reading the order would have any idea of the advantages and therefore his explanation has been most helpful.
I understand that the organisations representing the interested parties—that is the shipowners, the insurers and the consumers—were consulted fully prior to the introduction of the Merchant Shipping Act 1979 which as the noble Lord has said, covers the terms of the 1974 convention which paves the way for this interim order.
I should be obliged if the noble Lord could confirm that the same organisations have been fully consulted about this order and whether they generally approve of its contents. I also understand that the General Council of British Shipping has intimated that some of its member companies have expressed a view that a longer period would have been preferred before the order came into force for the reprinting and distribution of tickets. I do not know whether or not the noble Lord is aware of that; and, if so, whether he has any idea that there is still a problem on that matter.
457 Thirdly, is the position that the liability of a carrier will be limited to the amounts specified in the convention, or is there to be some provision for inflation and rising costs?—particularly, of course, since the convention was agreed; never mind what may happen in the future. Lastly, I am concerned to note that although only 10 contracting states are required to enable the 1974 convention to come into force internationally, so far only four states have ratified the convention. Can the Minister give some indication as to why that is so and whether it is possible for any steps to be taken to increase the number from four to 10?—because a considerable number of states must have been represented at the Athens Convention and presumably approved its terms. With those questions, generally we approve the order and welcome it.
§ 6.22 p.m.
§ Lord LYELLMy Lords, we are very grateful for the kind reception we have had from the noble Lord, Lord Underhill, to the order presented by me to your Lordships' House. The noble Lord was good enough to give me notice of all his questions and to one of them I have managed swiftly to find an answer. Perhaps he and the House would bear with me if I try to go through them in order. Indeed, the organisations which are likely to be concerned by the order today were very widely consulted, and have been consulted for a period of over two years. I understand that various consultations took place early last year, that Questions had been asked in your Lordships' House and that Answers had been given under the previous Administration. I believe that these went some way towards alleviating fears of the organisations, not just of the General Council of British Shipping. We understand that the organisations which would be, and indeed are, concerned with this order are now very broadly satisfied and happy with the provisions of the order.
The second problem which the noble Lord, Lord Underhill, raised, was that of printing tickets and using up old stocks of tickets which might not draw the attention of passengers to the provisions which we propose to bring into force under the order. I understand that concern was expressed, especially by one or two large companies, but the information that we 458 have is that these individual concerns are now content and are happy with the provisions that we have set out.
The third question which the noble Lord raised was one relating to the limits to the liability that are expressed in the order. It is indeed true that the financial limits would need to be reviewed from time to time to take account of inflation, not necessarily of any individual member who might have signed the convention, but indeed of worldwide inflation. At the Athens Convention the United Kingdom proposed to provide for a simple revision procedure to allow for the effects of inflation, but this failed to receive the required level of support. But the standard revision and the amendment procedures of the Athens Convention will allow for the limits to be reviewed in due course in the normal way in the reviewing process of the Athens Convention. Therefore, the noble Lord's query about inflation being taken into account is covered. The Government have looked at this and, indeed, we are continuing to make representations.
I do not necessarily think that I need to spell out the fascinations of the gold francs. The noble Lord will be able to discover that for death or personal injury the maximum is over £27,000 per passenger, and there are other limits which are expressed in a sterling term; indeed, there are orders for that, and I have the respective tables with me.
The last point about which the noble Lord was concerned was the number of nations which took part in the Athens Convention. I am given to understand that 32 national delegations took part in the discussions at the Athens Convention; that, as the noble Lord has pointed out, at present four nations have ratified the convention. These are Tonga, the Yemen, the German Democratic Republic, and indeed the United Kingdom. I understand that various other member states which took part in the convention are planning to ratify the convention, but they have their own individual problems as far as their particular carriers by sea are concerned. We are not able to hold out any great hopes of a substantial number of nations ratifying the convention so that the convention can come into force. It means 10 nations out of the 32 must 459 ratify it, and we do not hold out much hope of that.
§ On Question, Motion agreed to.