§ 2.47 p.m.
§ The Earl of SWINTONMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether in view of the current state of unemployed school-leavers they would consider extending the work experience on employers' premises scheme of the Youth Opportunities Programme from six months to one year in agriculture and other allied industries.
The MINISTER of STATE, DEPARTMENT of EMPLOYMENT (The Earl of Gowrie)My Lords, I am advised by the Manpower Services Commission, which is responsible for operating the Youth 194 Opportunities Programme that there are no plans to extend the length of work experience on employers' premises schemes in agriculture and other allied industries from six months to one year.
§ The Earl of SWINTONMy Lords, I was going to say that I was grateful to my noble friend for that helpful reply, but I do not think that I can. May I ask whether he might not persuade his colleagues at the Manpower Services Commission to look at this point? Does he not think that agriculture is unlike other industries, where one can learn a trade in six months? It takes a year to learn all the variations of seasons and the other work involved. I am not thinking here just of rural children but of children from town areas who perhaps seek some form of new life in the country—and might this not be of benefit in the present conditions?
The Earl of GOWRIEMy Lords, I must say that while I am sorry to have disappointed my noble friend, it is precisely because the Manpower Services Commission have had the interests of agriculture in mind that the provision has been made. We are anxious about any danger of interference with the normal channels of training and recruitment in an industry which has a declining labour force. On the point about whether six months is sufficient for a young person to decide whether or not he wishes to go into agriculture, while I agree with my noble friend that it does not cover all four seasons, I should have thought that two seasons would have been sufficient experience.
§ Lord ROCHESTERMy Lords, would the noble Earl agree that even more demoralising than to be unemployed immediately after leaving school may be to gain a place on a work experience scheme but be unable thereafter to obtain a permanent job? Does he further accept that in the light of the unemployment figures announced today there is now an even stronger case to make more resources available to the Manpower Services Commission in order to expand various elements comprising the youth opportunities scheme to the benefit of not only agriculture but of industry generally?
The Earl of GOWRIEMy Lords, as I have told the House in other connections, the provision for the Manpower Services Commission's Youth Opportunity Programme has been increased from between 20 per cent. and 25 per cent. I certainly agree with the noble Lord that it is demoralising to be out of work. I am happy to say that the take-up rate into real employment from the Youth Opportunities Programme is between 60 per cent. and 70 per cent. which I hope the noble Lord will agree is a good record. If there is any sign of this record flagging, we will take steps to correct it.
§ Baroness DAVIDMy Lords, may I ask the Minister whether he will be quite sure that the educational and training element will be strong enough in these courses—particularly if they are extended? It may be difficult in things such as agriculture where one or two people may be working on one farm. Could I ask for a reassurance that the educational training element will be strong enough?
The Earl of GOWRIEWe are aware of the need for that, my Lords. The noble Baroness will probably agree with us that one can learn a very great deal by working for six months on a farm, let us say. One should know enough in that way to know whether it would be the right kind of career for the young person involved.
§ Lord SANDFORDMy Lords, would my noble friend not agree that under the present circumstances, in view of the figures announced today, the point concentrated on in the Youth Opportunities Programme is to improve on the take-up of the places available, and particularly to do so with the school-leavers who have just left school qualified for those places? Could he tell us—or write to me in more detail if he cannot tell us now—what the current take-up of the places on the Youth Opportunities Programme is at the moment?
The Earl of GOWRIEMy Lords, it may not be sufficiently recognised that the Government offer a place on the Youth Opportunities Programme to every young man and woman in this country who may find himself or herself unemployed after six weeks. That is a considerable undertaking on behalf of the Government. I 196 agree with my noble friend Lord Sandford that sometimes there are slownesses in take-up provisions. We are constantly looking at any areas where take-up may be slower than we wish. I cannot give him a precise figure but I understand that it is well over 70 per cent.
§ Lord SANDFORDMy Lords, would the noble Lord not agree that the general figure is far lower than that? Would it not be valuable to have the answer to my question?
The Earl of GOWRIEMy Lords, if my noble friend will ask me that question formally—which is rather different from the Question in the name of my noble friend Lord SN\ inton—I will of course give him the information.
§ Lord SOAMESMy Lords, I wonder whether I may intervene for a second to suggest that in the interests of the Official Report and those who will be struggling to ensure that we get an accurate Official Report, noble Lords would be tolerant of the fact that we are in a different place and that the acoustics are not what they were in our proper House. Perhaps noble Lords will do two things: first, to try and get as near as possible to the microphones: secondly, to speak somewhat more slowly than perhaps is their custom.
§ Lord ELWYN-JONESAnd louder!
§ Lord SOAMESAnd therefore perhaps shorter as well!