§ 2.47 p.m.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether progress has been achieved during the current year in the number of persons who have joined the auxiliary forces, and in the provision of satisfactory equipment and facilities for training, and to what extent.
7§ The MINISTER of STATE, MINISTRY of DEFENCE (Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal)My Lords, we have made very good progress in recruiting for all the volunteer reserves, particularly since the announcement last August of increased rates of bounty and other measures recommended in the Shapland Report. In the case of the Territorial Army, almost 17,000 recruits joined between July 1979 and April of this year, the latest date for which figures are available. Recruitment to the other volunteer reserves, including the three new Regiment Squadrons of the Royal Auxiliary Air Force and the new Royal Naval Reserve Air Branch, is also going well.
On the equipment side, the current year has seen the introduction into the Territorial Army of Blowpipe and the 105 millimetre gun for the air defence and field artillery regiments; Clansman radios for NATO-roled units; and Larkspur radios for the General Reserve Battalions. For the Royal Naval Reserve we have announced plans to purchase a new class of minesweeper in the course of the next few years.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, I should like to thank the Minister for that Answer. Is he satisfied that we have reached anything in the nature of the target which we sought to obtain, and is he satisfied that those in authority in this matter are as active as they might be? Furthermore, is he satisfied that the modern equipment, which is essential for adequate training, is now available to those connected with the auxiliary forces?
§ Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYALMy Lords, the noble Lord poses the question whether we are satisfied. The answer, as I have said before in this House, is that we are never satisfied. We continue to do our best. We believe that the equipment becoming available to the Territorial Army represents an improvement. We do our best to keep the equipment for the Territorials analogous to the equipment that they would be using serving alongside their fellows in the event of a conflict, but we have to accept that any equipment allocated to the Territorial Army is inevitably equipment which is denied to the regular services, so there are limitations.
The Earl of SELKIRKMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether it is not desirable now to make a very real drive in relation to the auxiliary forces? This would be of value to the armed forces, but it would also have a considerable social value. Is it not desirable that those who cannot gain commercial employment should at least have a vocation, and do not the auxiliary forces provide something of this sort, which is both interesting and valuable training?
§ Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYALMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble Earl. I agree with him entirely. But we must be a little careful about going too far down this road. We must not start using the auxiliary forces as some direct means of alleviating unemployment, which is not their purpose although it is a useful side effect.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord to understand that, although I welcome the improvement, I am far from satisfied; and that my intention is to worry him, and all those associated with him and connected with the auxiliary forces, until we have reached the target that we have sought to achieve for many years?
§ Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYALMy Lords, I agree with the noble Lord that unremitting effort will be required. I can only say we have not done badly in our first year of office and that we intend to keep up the pace.
§ Lord NEWALLMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether, despite the enormous additions to various complicated equipment, he can say more about equipment such as"B"vehicles—like the Land Rover—which are sometimes below standard in the auxiliary forces?
§ Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYALMy Lords, the "B" vehicle situation is not a good situation anywhere in the forces. It is said, and I have said it before, that some of the vehicles being driven are older than the people driving them. This is not a desirable state of affairs. It is something that we shall rectify as soon as possible. Here, again, the main thrust of a re-equipment drive must be on the offensive, front-line weapons.
§ Lord SHEPHERDMy Lords, would not the noble Lord agree that there is a dilemma for those in industry in the junior management field between their responsibilities to their companies and their aspirations in being involved in the auxiliary forces? Is the Minister satisfied that there is sufficient relationship between the Ministry of Defence and the management of industry so that if young men and women wish to join the services they receive the encouragement of such management?
§ Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYALMy Lords, the noble Lord's supplementary question shows a considerable understanding of an important problem. We talk as much as possible to all forms of industry. Government-owned industry tries to give a lead; the CSD tries to give a lead. There are two problems. One is the question of when it is convenient for industry to allow people to go off to attend camp; and the other is the possibility of actual, direct financial support by giving more holidays to compensate for the holidays given up through training in the auxiliary forces.
§ Lord SHEPHERDMy Lords, the noble Lord has pointed to the problem, but what I was asking the noble Lord is this: Is there sufficient relationship and understanding between the Ministry of Defence and industry to overcome this particular problem?
§ Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYALMy Lords, whether there is sufficient, I do not know. It is something that we are trying to improve upon. It is not an unsatisfactory situation, but I dare say that there is room for improvement. We talk to people like the CBI about it.