HEAVY TRAFFIC AND HISTORIC BUILDINGS (Hansard, 17 July 1980)

§ Lord MONSON
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON
My Lords, local authorities have adequate powers to divert traffic away from such buildings, and have been reminded of the need to use them where this is called for and is feasible in the light of local circumstances.

§ Lord MONSON
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his reply. Is he aware, for example, that according to reports from distinguished architects and consulting engineers the 13th century chapter house of Lincoln Cathedral is seriously endangered by vibration from passing traffic, and in particular heavy lorry traffic, despite which a temporary traffic ban has been withdrawn following complaints of inconvenience from certain local residents and heavy vehicle operators? Bearing in mind that the Lincoln by-pass will not be completed until 1985 at the earliest, would the noble Lord not agree that if the chapter house were to collapse in the interval because of a failure to reintroduce a traffic diversion, or at the very least a weight restriction, it would concern not only the people of Lincoln but the people of Britain as a whole, and indeed the entire civilised world?

§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON
My Lords, with regard to the noble Lord's question whether I would regard the collapse of the chapter house at Lincoln as a calamity, the answer is, Yes, I certainly would, and I think we all would. But, as he has said, it is a 13th century building and it has been standing a long time. The Government have indicated that we are giving high priority to 13 by-passes to historic towns, of which Lincoln is one. When I tell the House that the work will probably begin in the first half of 1983, knowing how long it takes to get these things going your Lordships will see that it is positively galloping action. I appreciate that the dean and chapter are worried. I understand the city council, who are the 1951 responsible authority, are considering the diversion of through traffic before this by-pass is completed. This is a matter for them. The sooner they do something, if it is feasible, the better. But I suggest that in the case of something which has stood for 700 years, although deans and chapters and noble Lords, myself included, worry, the chances are that it will survive the next three years.

§ Lord STRABOLGI
My Lords, arising out of the Question, may I ask the noble Lord the Premier Baron what the Government are proposing to do about these huge continental juggernauts which are shaking our beautiful cathedral cities and villages to pieces?

§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON
My Lords, let us not get emotional with the words "huge continental juggernauts". It is the axle weight that counts. Already most of the great cities of Britain, where the major cathedrals and historic buildings are sited, are by-passed. The next 13 are going to be commenced soon. It is up to the local authorities, which have the powers. There are very few places now where buildings of major importance are really in danger. We must keep a sense of balance in this matter. We are giving priority to these 13 other historic town by-passes, and I think it will help.

§ Lord DONALDSON of KINGS-BRIDGE
My Lords, the noble Lord's reply is very disturbing, for a number of reasons. May I ask him whether he thinks that, though the chapter house dates from the 13th century, there have been lorries running round it all that time? It is really a very odd reply. Will the Government recognise that they are—we have commended them strongly for doing so—putting aside large sums of money to preserve our heritage? Here is one of the most important parts of our heritage, according to the people responsible for it, being in serious danger of going wrong before the remedy which the Government speak of comes into operation, and I do feel further action should be taken.

§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON
My Lords, I have already told the House that the local city council can take action earlier to divert traffic. They have not 1952 done this yet. Vibration does not help anything, I agree, but there is no actual scientific proof that in itself it does destroy. It is only when structural difficulties arise that that danger is accelerated. Really, we cannot go faster. We are doing everything to encourage the city council and local authorities to divert. Occasionally, there are matters which make it impractical for them to do so. Within three years we will have got things going in a big way.

§ Lord GODBER of WILLINGTON
My Lords, can I make the point to my noble friend, as one who represented the area of Lincolnshire adjoining this chapter house for nearly 30 years—I have admired it for a long time—that it is totally impossible for large juggernauts to pass on the roads immediately adjoining?

§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON
My Lords, I am very grateful to my noble friend for that observation.

§ Lord KILMARNOCK
My Lords, will the Government not agree that the bypasses referred to in the noble Lord's Question are an essential ancillary service to our present road network, and that once begun they should be completed before proceeding with any further major trunk road developments? I am thinking particularly of Buckingham, where there is a horrible snarl-up at the moment; and I have no doubt there are a great many other cases.

§ Lord DERWENT
My Lords, is it in order to read supplementary questions?

§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON
My Lords, it is not really in order for noble Lords to read supplementary questions, as we all know, but occasionally we like to be reminded of certain facts when we are asking questions. In reply to the question by the noble Lord, Lord Kilmarnock, I can say that we are worried about these matters. We are doing— I am sorry; I have forgotten, thanks to Lord Derwent's interruption. What was the main point?

§ Lord KILMARNOCK
My Lords, I am sorry that I incurred disapproval for reading, though in fact it is common practice in your Lordships' House. May I tell the noble Lord—

§ Lord KILMARNOCK
Is the noble Lord aware that my original question was whether the Government considered that it was extremely important to complete by-passes which are actually projected before proceeding with any further major trunk road development?

§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON
My Lords, I apologise to the House. We are in a time of money constraint for the Government, as your Lordships are well aware. We have got to get the economy straight. So far as road transport is concerned, we have made absolute priorities which are in the interests of the economic survival of the nation. Our first priority, as your Lordships are also aware, is the M.25. After that, we have considered that these historic towns need and deserve the by-passes to preserve them, because this is part of our historic background and culture. I think that that explains what the noble Lord wanted to know.

§ Lord HOWIE of TROON
My Lords, in regard to structural defects in buildings, can the noble Lord tell us which structural defects he had in mind which are necessary, in addition to excessive loading, to bring a building down?

§ Lord SOAMES
Never mind. It is all right. My noble friend should say he agrees.

§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON
My Lords, my noble Leader indicates that he thinks I should agree with the noble Lord.