HL Deb 15 July 1980 vol 411 cc1612-4

2.43 p.m.

Lord SHINWELL

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether the information in their possession enables an accurate report to be made on the disposition of Soviet forces in Afghanistan since they announced their intention to withdraw both numbers of troops and weapons.

The SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN and COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRS (Lord Carrington)

My Lords, such information as we have suggests that considerably less than 10,000 troops have been withdrawn and that they and their equipment are of a kind irrevelant to a counter-insurgency war. Probably over 80,000 Soviet troops remain in Afghanistan.

Lord SHINWELL

My Lords, I thank the Foreign Secretary for that Answer. Is he aware that the position is deplorable and most unsatisfactory? That it would appear that the Soviet Union could now invade almost any part of the globe without any resistance from the allied nations, even the United States of America, and certainly the United Kingdom? That we are now in a position where we cannot act diplomatically because there is no hope of success in that connection? That we are apparently unable to mobilise our forces in order to warn the Soviet Union that if they persist in behaviour of this character this can only lead to another conflagration, and that we are not prepared to allow them to misbehave in this fashion because, in the long run, it would mean that the civilised nations of the world would have to surrender?

Lord CARRINGTON

My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord that this is indeed a serious situation. I also agree with him that what the Soviet Union has done is quite unacceptable, and that the western world is not prepared to accept it. There have been certain developments recently in the situation which have been not entirely unpromising. We have seen the third world unite almost unanimously against this invasion, and recently we have seen the Islamic Conference condemning it yet again and calling for the withdrawal of Soviet troops from Afghanistan. Nevertheless, I think we would be overoptimistic if we thought that that was going to happen in the near future. But we must press on and we must not allow this situation to become irreversible.

Lord SHINWELL

My Lords, would the noble Lord allow me to ask this further question: Will the Foreign Secretary appreciate now that there are some of us who feel—I cannot speak for everybody, and certainly I have no right to speak for the Members on this side of the House; I wish I could—that, in view of the tension that now exists and the apprehension of vast numbers of people in various countries of the world, it is of the utmost importance that NATO, the allied countries without exception—even Belgium and Holland—play their part and must be prepared to use every possible military device at our disposal in order to prevent the Russians from indulging in aggression? That we ought to put a stop to the nonsense that is being indulged in at this time by some people who apparently arc unconcerned about our security in the future and the security of those who are to come after us—

Several noble Lords

Question!

Lord SHINWELL

—be it on a principle which is not worth two pennyworth of gin?

Lord CARRINGTON

My Lords, I do not think that there would be anybody in the House who would disagree with the noble Lord about the paramount need to ensure the safety of this country and the credibility of NATO. I agree with him entirely.

The Earl of SELKIRK

My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether any evidence is available that the Russians have been using weapons of chemical warfare in the course of their activities in Afghanistan?

Lord CARRINGTON

No, my Lords, I have no firm evidence of that.