HL Deb 11 July 1980 vol 411 cc1442-4

11.17 a.m.

Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will make a statement on the progress of negotiations for the banning of chemical weapons.

Lord TREFGARNE

My Lords, a working group of the Committee on Disarmament, in which we are actively involved, is attempting to define the key elements of a chemical weapons convention. The 12th round of bilateral discussions between the United States and the Soviet Union has just been completed. Verification remains the obstacle to progress.

Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for that Answer, may I ask whether Her Majesty's Government are aware that we welcome the fact that these two examinations are proceeding in parallel? Is the noble Lord aware that it is obviously important that the two super-powers should agree on a matter of this sort but that also the enlarged and more representative Disarmament Committee in Geneva should also come to its conclusions? Finally, can the noble Lord give me an assurance that Her Majesty's Government will now work for the unification of the two studies so that the final result, which we shall all welcome, will emanate from the Disarmament Committee in Geneva and not necessarily solely from the two super-powers?

Lord TREFGARNE

My Lords, I think that the convention is unlikely to be effective without the agreement of the two super-powers; I cannot envisage a convention which does not include them. However, I can say that the working group, to which I referred at the beginning of my Answer, is working hard on this matter and we hope that a preliminary report from it will be submitted to the central Committee on Disarmament at the end of August.

Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord for his forthcoming Answer to my supplementary. He well understands the point that I have put to him. Will Her Majesty's Government and other Governments look at this class of disarmament proposal in the light of the fairly considerable success already achieved in comparable areas of disarmament, namely, environmental warfare and biological warfare?

Lord TREFGARNE

Yes, my Lords, I think that the best way forward in disarmament matters generally is by a step-by-step approach such as this where one can identify individual areas where we can reach agreement with the Soviets.

Lord BROCKWAY

My Lords, I should like the noble Lord to clarify one point. Is it not the case that the Geneva committee of the United Nations has ruled out any discussion of proposals which were being discussed by the superpowers? Has that decision been changed Will it not be accepted that many other countries, other than the two super-powers, have an interest in this question?

Lord TREFGARNE

My Lords, I am sure that the noble Lord is right in the last part of what he said. Certainly the fact that the two super-powers are considering this matter themselves does not rule out the possibility or, indeed, the fact of other discussions which are taking place in the working group to which I referred.

Lord WYNNE-JONES

My Lords, will the noble Lord agree that the real objection to the chemical weapon is not that it is effective, but that it is indiscriminate? Therefore, is it not vital that a general convention should be reached? Would not the reaching of such a convention, accepted by a large body of states, be a powerful influence on the two super-powers, to bring them to an agreement? Will Her Majesty's Government bear this in mind and press, as a matter of urgency, the reaching of a general convention banning chemical and bacteriological weapons.

Lord TREFGARNE

My Lords, there is, of course, already a convention in force which bans biological weapons. That came into force, I think, in 1975. But I would not agree with the noble Lord if he is suggesting that we should reach a convention without the inclusion of the two super-powers.