§ 2.46 p.m.
§ Lord BLEASEMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will urgently initiate an independent and impartial inquiry into the organisation, functions, administration and finance of the Sports Council 1170 for Northern Ireland with a view to having an early report for future needs and developments; and whether they will not proceed with the proposals announced on 16th June until such time as the report has been duly considered.
§ Lord ELTONMy Lords, the Sports Council for Northern Ireland was one of the bodies which came within the scope of Sir Leo Pliatzky's Review of Non-Departmental Public Bodies in Northern Ireland. Since the Sports Council was established six years ago the district councils have developed their own expertise, and the involvement of one government department, 26 district councils and a separate executive public body cannot be justified in terms of the scale of Northern Ireland. In addition, a review of the staff of the Sports Council by the Department of the Civil Service has highlighted the growing duplication of effort and wasteful overlapping of functions. It is not considered that a further inquiry would materially add to the information already available on which the Government have based their declared intention.
§ Lord BLEASEMy Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for that reply, may I ask whether he is aware of the dismay, the disappointment and even the discouragement that his words will have throughout the whole of Northern Ireland in respect of this matter? May I ask whether he is fully aware of the significance of the chairman of the Sports Council's tribute to the members of the Sports Council for their achievements and inspiring contribution to sport, and also his remarks concerning the director and staff when he said that their selfless dedication and enthusiasm was to be admired?
I should also like to ask the noble Lord whether it is not a fact that this drastic action to declare 42 members of the staff redundant was taken without any consultations whatsoever with the Sports Council and with no consultations of any nature with the trade unions representing the employees? Furthermore, may I ask the Minister whether he can indicate support for this retrograde step from any of the 12 Northern Ireland elected Members, from any of the 26 1171 local district councils, from any of the more than 80 sports organisations throughout Northern Ireland, and indeed from any section of the Northern Ireland community?
§ Lord ELTONMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for voicing those opinions. I am aware of the high regard in which the staff of the Sports Council has been held and the good relations which it has established with the sporting community and the governing bodies of sport; but I do not intend or expect that the output of the Sports Council will be so very considerably changed as a result of the change of the means by which it is serviced. The proposed arrangements will eliminate much of the present duplicated effort and overlapping functions to which I have referred and will save administrative and staffing costs of the order of £200,000. The intention is that a greater proportion of available resources should thus be received by sporting bodies for whom they were voted.
The noble Lord has referred to the reaction which met this announcement. Certainly it has been general: it has also been immediate. I would wish to receive the opinions given by many of the people to whom he has referred, after due consideration has been given to them. An appropriate opportunity for this will occur when the draft instrument of the proposed policy is published.
§ Lord O'NEILL of the MAINEMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that what the noble Lord, Lord Blease, has said is perfectly correct. It seems quite wrong to me that a body which has worked extremely well on a non-sectarian nonpolitical basis should be treated in this manner. If it is all right for Wales and Scotland to have Sports Councils, why should not Northern Ireland continue to have one with executive functions? It has been a most successful body. I hope the noble Lord will reconsider the situation and see whether it is not possible to allow the Sports Council to continue in its present position and with its present powers.
§ Lord ELTONMy Lords, I should like one or two points to be made clear. 1172 The situation in the Province of Northern Ireland of the Sports Council never has been the same as it is in the rest of the United Kingdom, because the United Kingdom bodies are set up under Royal Charter and handle large capital sums. In the Province we have a body set up under statutory instrument and the large capital sums are already handled by the Department of Education and expended through the local authorities. Therefore, although I give due weight to what my noble friend says—of course I do—I am not led at the moment to think that it would be proper to change this policy, whereby the money taken out of the sporting budget, which is directed by the taxpayer through Parliament to the sportsman, is going to be reduced by something like £200,000, which is over a third of the whole budget.
§ Lord HAMPTONMy Lords, is it not true that a forerunner of the Sports Council was the Central Council for Physical Recreation, and in fact that body was set up during the recession of the 'thirties? Is the noble Lord convinced that, in the present situation of unemployment and with greater leisure in the future, this is not a false economy and a retrograde step?
§ Lord ELTONMy Lords, I think I take exactly the point that the noble Lord is making. I should like to say again that I do not intend that sport shall suffer as a result of this. I should like also to mention that it has come to my notice that suggestions have been made outside this House—I think this is the appropriate time to mention it—that the civil servants in my department are biased in this matter and that I have been given partial advice. I should like to put on record my confidence that the staff of my department have not given me, and never will give me, improper advice to suit their own personal interests. The allegation in any case rests upon a misconception of the policy proposed. It will not result in either the creation or the protection of a single job in my department.
Lord HUNTMy Lords, would the Minister assure the House that the proposals they have made in regard to the Sports Council for Northern Ireland have taken fully into account the importance, 1173 whether in that Province or elsewhere, of having at the appropriate level, in this case the provincial level, a body whose status gives all due importance to the sport or activity which it is supposed to encourage and support, and that they in no sense underrate the importance, particularly in Northern Ireland, of having that status recognised and supported?
§ Lord ELTONMy Lords, I am happy to give that undertaking. Perhaps some of your Lordships are under the misimpression that the intention is to abolish the Sports Council. It is not. The intention is to see that the Sports Council is now serviced at infinitely less cost by members of the Department of Education in Northern Ireland. Those members will be individually known to the Sports Council; they will not be faceless men. I intend that the budget for the department shall have within it a specific budget for the purposes of the Sports Council, and the Sports Council will have direct access to the Minister in advising him on how the budget should be spent.
§ Viscount BROOKEBOROUGHMy Lords, can I ask the noble Lord whether he is stating that the governing bodies will now have £200,000 more in their hands from this saving? Secondly, can the noble Lord tell me why he has decided now that he will consult regularly and take advice regularly from the chairman of the new Sports Council, when up-to-date he has failed to consult the present chairman of the present Sports Council about a fundamental matter of the reorganisation of sport in Northern Ireland, bearing in mind that the two people, the chairman of the new Sports Council and the chairman of the present Sports Council, are one and the same person?
§ Lord ELTONMy Lords, first, I cannot commit myself to what the total of next year's budget for sport will be; but after this reform it will be £200,000 more than it otherwise would have been. That is the purpose of the exercise. We have been talking about consultation. I think the noble Viscount, although he puts it amusingly, has exaggerated the extent of the gap between myself and the chairman of the Sports Council, who has agreed, after discussion with me, to serve on the new body.
Lord DUNLEATHMy Lords, in making reference to district councils, could I ask the noble Lord whether Her Majesty's Government are fully aware of the different levels at which the recreation officers of district councils work, as opposed to the Sports Council itself? Are Her Majesty's Government aware of the tremendous amount of expertise which has been built up by the Sports Council over the last six years and the fact that that expertise is not perhaps available at a lower level?
§ Lord ELTONMy Lords, I am aware of the levels. The expertise will be preserved on the Sports Council itself. The service will be provided by my staff.