§ Lord GISBOROUGHMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what plans they are making for the long-term to improve the feeder road from London to meet the ever-expanding demand by travellers to Gatwick.
§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTONMy Lords, my right honourable friend the Minister of Transport is giving top priority to the completion of the M.25 London orbital road, which provides a direct connection with the M.23 to Gatwick. This will facilitate access between Gatwick and a number of routes into London. My right honourable friend has decided that a major new highway extension of the M.23 is not the right answer to the problems of the A.23 corridor. Instead, he will be considering with the local authorities concerned what improvements can be made to the existing A.23 route. The dual carriageway north of Hooley is at present being extended and two schemes for the improvement of the busy junction at Purley Cross are expected to start, one, in 1980–81 and the other in 1981–82.
§ Lord GISBOROUGHMy Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that Answer. Is he aware that the first national road traffic forecast of the transport department has estimated that there will be an increase of up to 60 per cent. in the number of motor cars by the turn of the century, and that it is also likely that the Common Market rules about heavy lorries will be applied to this country by then? Would 508 he take the point that it is utterly necessary for this road to be improved virtually to motorway standard from Central London?
§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTONMy Lords, I am not quite sure of the connection between heavy lorries and Gatwick, which is not primarily a cargo airport. Your Lordships may be interested to know for Lord Moyne's family book of records that Gatwick holds the world record for the number of air passengers approaching and departing from it by train. I do not think my noble friend has taken the point that the M.25 is going to be an enormous circular road and that very little of the main traffic going north goes straight into Central London. Most of it spans out and goes in from the outer edges.
§ Lord GISBOROUGHMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the reason that this happens is that they cannot stand the two-hour grind through all the traffic coming into London?
§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTONMy Lords, I have already said that very nearly half the airport travellers use the train service. When the British Rail improvements are completed the number will be even closer to half. The orbital system will make an enormous difference because the traffic will use that. We have investigated this on many censuses and it is a fact.
§ Lord DAVIES of LEEKMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that some of us who have been around a long time believe that this voracious demand for roadways—roadways which are eating up our hedgerows and consuming farmers' fields—is driving three-quarters of the country neurotic? Does he not think it is time we learned that travel across London was quicker by hansom cab than in today's traffic jams? Will he not do something to bring back some of the railways?
§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTONMy Lords, I think I have answered the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Leek. I have said that the railways are being improved. Gatwick already holds the world record in the number of people using it—and using trains. We are not going into hedgerow country when we get north of Purley Cross.
Lord CHELWOODMy Lords, does not my noble friend agree that the harder it is to find the road, the more important it is to have signposts, and that there are practically none between London and Gatwick?
§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTONMy Lords, between London and Gatwick there is a very good "sign-posted way". It is by train from Victoria. Most people find it easier and quicker to use that way.
§ Lord GAINFORDMy Lords, in connection with the train service, will it not be possible to alleviate the road traffic by making, in addition to Victoria, the station at Kensington (Olympia) a terminus for access to Gatwick?
§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTONMy Lords, that is a very interesting point. I have heard that discussed and I have heard tunnels and so on discussed. If the noble Lord would like to put down a Question on it, I will have it looked into.
§ Lord SEGALMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the train service to Gatwick could be still further improved if the train were allowed to run every quarter-hour after one o'clock in the morning for the benefit of those unfortunate travellers who arrive at Gatwick by air somewhat late?
§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTONMy Lords, I will take the noble Lord's point and see that it gets to the authorities concerned.