HL Deb 02 July 1980 vol 411 cc342-5

2.40 p.m.

Lord McCARTHY

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have received the results of the nationwide survey on the operation and effects of the maternity provisions of the Employment Protection (Consolidation) Act 1978 undertaken by the Policy Studies Institute for the Department of Employment; whether those results were taken into account in framing Clauses 10 and 11 of the Employment Bill; and when they expect to be able to publish the results of the survey.

The MINISTER of STATE, DEPARTMENT of EMPLOYMENT (The Earl of Gowrie)

My Lords, the Government have only recently received the results from the first part of the survey of the maternity provisions, which deals with the experience of working mothers. A summary of the findings has been published in the May edition of the Employment Gazette, and the full report was published on 30th June. The second part of the survey, which deals with the experience of employers, is under way, and a report on this part should be available by the end of the year. The results of the research were therefore not available when the Government were framing the clauses dealing with maternity in the Employment Bill. Nevertheless, now that they have been received they confirm the Government's view that the right balance between employer and employee has been struck in the Bill.

Lord McCARTHY

My Lords, I thank the noble Earl for that Answer. I hope he will accept that when I put the Question down I did not know that in fact the Government intended to publish an account of the first part of this study in the Gazette. In respect of the second part of his Answer, may I ask him how, in the light of that article in the Gazette, and even more so in the light of the full publication of the PSI, survey by Mr. Daniel, the Government can now justify what they are doing in respect of maternity? The PSI report makes it quite clear that the overwhelming majority of small employers will not have to find jobs for women who are pregnant more than once in every 15 years and once in every 30 years. How can figures of this kind justify what the Government are proposing?

The Earl of GOWRIE

My Lords, like all such surveys and all such figures, it depends on what you read into them. The results show that about two-thirds of the women who say that they intend to come back in fact do not do so; and that seems to us totally to justify our provisions in Clause 11 governing notice of return. But in fact we do not seek to rest our justification on one particular survey; we rest it on a matter of judgment.

Lord McCARTHY

My Lords, will the noble Earl agree that what the survey shows is that the overwhelming majority of small firms have no problems about maternity return?

The Earl of GOWRIE

My Lords, the survey has taken no account, neither was its remit to do so—and I make no criticism of it—of the fears of employers. You cannot survey the disincentive effects of measures on things that have not happened. We want things to happen. We want employers to take on people in work. You cannot place any judgment of any coherence on surveys of this kind. They are useful. We publish the results. But they make very little difference to our overall judgment.

Baroness SEEAR

My Lords, would the noble Earl agree that the extent to which people do not return to work suggests that it is ridiculous to ask them to say in writing before they leave whether they intend to return? Any sensible woman when asked will say that she will return; she does not know at that stage.

The Earl of GOWRIE

My Lords, the noble Baroness, experienced as she is in these things, has missed the point of the provision. It is to let the employer know roughly what the situation is. It is to create certainty where uncertainty reigned before. That is all that it is designed to do.

Lord McCARTHY

My Lords, will the noble Earl agree that all that the survey shows is that he only needs to know once every 30 years?

The Earl of GOWRIE

My Lords, as I have said on this Question today and in the debates on the Employment Bill, I give very little weight to surveys. However, when they occur, I do not seek to suppress them; I have them published in the Employment Gazette. I find considerable justification for the Government's measures in this survey if I am prepared to see through a particular lens; but when looking at it through another lens, I find less justification. It seems to me to have very little relevance.

Baroness SEEAR

My Lords, I do not want to go on about this matter, but will the Minister agree that if he wants to give employers certainty it is absurd to ask women to write letters to the employers to say whether they are going back before they have had their baby?—because the one thing that the employer does not get from that is certainty.

The Earl of GOWRIE

My Lords, we are dealing with a handful of cases where we are concerned to see that the employers have a reasonable certainty that they will be able to tell whether or not a woman is going to come back after having her baby. She has the right to do so if she wishes and our legislation confirms that. On the general issue of surveys, I would say to both the noble Baroness and the noble Lord that if you took surveys about the status of the closed shop in this economy you would have to abolish it overnight.

Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOE

My Lords, if the noble Earl is going to ignore the results of the surveys which are commissioned by his own department and to use two different kinds of lenses, is it not possible that he might end up cross-eyed?

The Earl of GOWRIE

My Lords, I do not ignore surveys; I take them with a pinch of salt. But I take the advice of the noble Baroness and will try to see things steadily and in whole.

Lord HARMAR-NICHOLLS

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that people in charge of small businesses require a little help in coming to some conclusions in running their businesses? While the clause as it stands cannot give them certainty, it minimises uncertainty, and this is an advance in the right direction.

The Earl of GOWRIE

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for that. I must be careful that we do not stray during Question Time into a debate on the Employment Bill.