§ Lord HILL-NORTONMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government how they intend to make up the shortage of air defence aircraft and aircrew available to the Royal Air Force, in the years 1980–83.
§ The MINISTER of STATE, MINISTRY of DEFENCE (Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal)My Lords, 2 in this period the United Kingdom air defence fighter front line will be expanded by the formation of an additional Lightning squadron; a new squadron of VC.10 tanker aircraft will also be introduced as one of a number of measures designed to ensure that the potential of the fighter force is exploited to the full. As regards aircrew, the air defence forces are up to strength and this position will be maintained, notwithstanding the current shortage of pilots in the Royal Air Force.
§ Lord HILL-NORTONMy Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his reply. I found it alarming. May I ask further whether, in view of the fact that the Russians are now building aircraft at a rate which would replace the front line of the whole Royal Air Force every six months, he regards what he has just said as an adequate deterrent in this respect?
§ Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYALMy Lords, I have said on a previous occasion that it is impossible to be satisfied or to be smug about this situation. But we are doing our best and we think that we are making some improvements.
§ Lord BALFOUR of INCHRYEMy Lords, may I ask the Minister this 3 question: In his reply, I think he said that there was to be a new VC.10 tanker squadron. As no VC.10s have been built for a great many years now, does this really mean an accretion to our strength or simply a redisposal of old aircraft?
§ Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYALMy Lords, I am speaking from memory, but I believe that these were VC.10s which the Air Force Department acquired and which they are converting to a tanker role. They were previously passenger aircraft.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord the Minister whether he agrees, in view of what has happened recently and the consequences which might be much more serious than some people contemplate, because there seems to be too much caution about, that what he is proposing in the way of strengthening the Air Force is inadequate in the circumstances, and will be even more inadequate in the future? In the circumstances, would it not be wise for the Government to reconsider our defence strategy and, in particular, get rid at once, and perhaps for all time, of this nonsense about détente with Russia?
§ Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYALMy Lords, I am speaking about the air defence of this country, and the principal problem that constrains us in adding rapidly to that capability is our ability to acquire aircraft, to arrange for the support of the aircraft and to train the pilots to fly them. In the short term, it is very difficult to do anything which yields a rapid return.
The Earl of SELKIRKMy Lords, the noble Lord has mentioned the shortage of pilots. Is this not a clear case for building up a large reserve of pilots? Could there not be some modern version of the auxiliary air force, which could give a reserve of pilots and bring the Royal Air Force more closely in touch with the civilian population?
§ Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYALMy Lords, that is a very interesting suggestion which the noble Earl makes. But my guess is that it would prove to be difficult to follow, in the sense that nowadays the requirements 4 for a fighter pilot are very much more demanding than they used to be in the years when we remember the contribution that was made by the auxiliary air force. Nevertheless, it is something that is well worth examining.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, in reference to what my noble friend Lord Shinwell said just now, would the Minister reaffirm that the twin purposes of NATO are defence as well as détente, and that it is the intention of this country as a leading member of NATO to pursue both objectives at the same time, in co-operation with our other allies in NATO? On a factual question, is this expansion, which the Minister described in his first Answer, within the 3 per cent. limit agreed with our NATO allies last year, or is it additional to that?
Lord STRATHCONA and MONT ROYALMy Lords, taking the noble Lord's last question first, it is within the currently planned expenditure limits, which would include the 3 per cent. As regards the general question, I agree with him that our policy remains to find an amicable arrangement with our potential adversaries, but we believe that negotiations to this end are best conducted from a position of strength rather than weakness.
§ The Earl of KIMBERLEYMy Lords, can my noble friend say whether the Supreme Allied Commander Europe is happy with the situation as it is at the moment?
§ Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYALMy Lords, I have not communicated with the Supreme Allied Commander Europe on this issue, but I very much doubt whether he is any happier than I am. All I can say is that it is the best we can do at the present time.
§ Lord DAVIES of LEEKMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that there are some of us who feel that this House is talking in "cloud cuckooland"? How does the noble Lord think we can increase the number of aircraft with the steel industry being made almost defunct? Secondly, there is the question of the source of chromium, aluminium and other necessities which are difficult to get. Why talk like a nation of gladiators 5 when at this moment we could not hold out for half an hour in a nuclear war?
§ Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYALMy Lords, I think that is rather wide of the original Question.
§ Lord DAVIES of LEEKMy Lords, it needs answering!
Lord SHIN WELLMy Lords, in view of the questions which have been asked by my noble friends, may I ask a further question? Is the noble Lord the Minister aware that nothing should be allowed to stand in the way of strengthening our defences, in association with our allies—and I emphasise that—irrespective of this desire for détente, however fine sounding it appears to be, but which we know now by experience is a deception?
§ Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYALMy Lords, I am very grateful for the noble Lord's sentiments. They will be read with interest and acclaim in the Ministry of Defence.