§ 2.48 p.m.
§ Lord NUGENT of GUILDFORDMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what are the obligations to provide housing for nationals of Member States of the European Communities who are living and working in the United Kingdom; and what measures they are taking to meet any such obligations.
§ The PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY of STATE, DEPARTMENT of the ENVIRONMENT (Lord Bellwin)My Lords, EEC Regulation No. 1612/68 on freedom of movement for workers within the Community provides that EEC nationals working in another Member State shall enjoy the same rights and benefits in relation to housing as the nationals of that State. It is for local housing authorities to judge the housing needs of those in their areas.
§ Lord NUGENT of GUILDFORDMy Lords, while thanking my noble friend for that interesting Answer, may I ask whether he is aware that there is some anxiety that British nationals would not receive the same liberal treatment in Member States in Europe as EEC nationals receive when they come here, in particular under the Housing (Homeless Persons) Act 1977? Can my noble friend tell me whether there is reciprocal treatment? Would British nationals be given equivalent treatment for rehousing if they were living in one of the Member States in Europe?
§ Lord BELLWINMy Lords, the regulations call for precisely that—for reciprocal arrangements. But the housing circumstances vary in the different countries. For example, we have a preponderance of 8 local authority dwellings but one would not find the same preponderance in, say, Germany or elsewhere where there is a greater amount of private housing. Therefore to the extent that there is a difference in the housing, that is quite right. However, the intent of the regulations is that there should be reciprocal arrangements.
§ Lord NUGENT of GUILDFORDMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that that answer gives no satisfaction at all? Is he also aware that I am left with the impression that whereas we are most liberally treating nationals of other member countries, similar treatment is not given to our citizens? What arrangements are being made to co-ordinate the provision of housing for the homeless in Member States to ensure that the British taxpayers and ratepayers of British families are not being exploited to the benefit of other Member States?
§ Lord BELLWINMy Lords, I am sorry that my noble friend feels that the answer is less than he would like to have. It is certainly the one that I am entitled to give in the light of the facts as they are. As to whether or not there is the same degree of attention given to this problem in other countries, one would only have to go by the history and the record as we have it, and if my noble friend will produce some situations to indicate that there have been circumstances where this has not been so, I will gladly welcome them and undertake to look at them; but at the present time, so far as I am aware, there are no such instances.
§ Lord ELWYN-JONESMy Lords, does not the earlier Answer of the noble Lord indicate that if his Government's policy of selling municipal houses is continued we shall be in danger of being in breach of our obligations to the EEC?
§ Lord BELLWINMy Lords, in the light of the situation as it has so far obtained as regards numbers, and so on, there is little likelihood of that happening.
Lord PAGET of NORTHAMPTONMy Lords, will the noble Lord tell us why there is little likelihood of it happening? If they come, it will be as tenants, with the rights as I gather we have to give them statutorily, and certainly we are making their trip worth while!
§ Lord BELLWINI think not, my Lords. The record so far shows that the number of occasions when this has arisen is so small that the likelihood is exactly as I have suggested.
§ The Earl of LAUDERDALEMy Lords, would my noble friend not agree that the sale of council houses, in so far as it will increase the number of privately owned houses, will work towards reciprocity with Germany and other countries which have a greater private sector?
§ Lord PARGITERMy Lords, is the noble Lord saying that because we have a greater preponderance of local authority housing in this country we have a greater liability to house people from other countries than other countries have to house our nationals in similar circumstances?
§ Lord BELLWINNo, my Lords, I am not saying that at all. What I am saying is that there are regulations which call for total reciprocity in the way this is carried out. That is all I am saying. I can only repeat what I said a few moments ago, that so far there is nothing to indicate that there is such a preponderance or an imbalance as to reflect adversely upon our nationals.
§ Lord BROOKS of TREMORFAMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that many British workers working in other Member States are in fact sleeping rough because they cannot get accommodation and I am referring specifically to building trade workers?
§ Lord BELLWINMy Lords, I assume that the noble Lord will give me some evidence that I can investigate.
§ Lord NUGENT of GUILDFORDMy Lords, will my noble friend answer one question which I put to him with regard to the prospect of co-ordination between Member States on this very important aspect of policy?
§ Lord BELLWINYes, my Lords, I will certainly look at that, to see whether there is something which both can and which needs to be done.