HL Deb 19 February 1980 vol 405 cc567-70

2.47 p.m.

Baroness VICKERS

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether the numbers of industrial and non-industrial employees of local authorities have increased since the last general election.

The PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY of STATE, DEPARTMENT of the ENVIRONMENT (Lord Bellwin)

My Lords, figures for local authority employment in England and Wales taken from the Joint Manpower Watch show that between 10th March 1979 (the last survey date before the general election) and 9th September (the latest survey date for which information has been published) the number of manual employees increased by 3,062 and of non-manual employees decreased by 4,705, a net decrease of 1,643. All these numbers are in terms of full-time equivalents.

Baroness VICKERS

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that reply. Is the noble Lord satisfied, in view of all the cuts proposed, that the numbers are diminishing, particularly in the non-industrials?

Lord BELLWIN

My Lords, the Government are by no means satisfied, although a start does seem to have been made in achieving a reduction in manpower levels. But I think it is necessary to keep in proper context the extent of the cuts to which my noble friend refers. They are, if I may remind the House, 1½ per cent. from the levels of current spending in the current year plus another 1 per cent. to be taking place next year.

Baroness BIRK

My Lords, as the Minister has answered in terms of numbers and then percentages of public expenditure, can he give any idea of how this equates with the cut in services to the community, which is what so many people are suffering?

Lord BELLWIN

My Lords, it is of course quite fallacious to assume that the quality of provision of services is in any way commensurate with the level of expenditure.

Baroness BIRK

My Lords, with great respect, that is not the question I asked the Minister. I was asking as a question whether he would explain the relationship between the numbers reduced, which he has produced, and the level of services to the people. I was not talking about expenditure. I was talking about the personnel and the services.

Lord BELLWIN

My Lords, the point I was trying to make was that there is not of necessity a relationship between the two points that the noble Baroness mentioned. In any case, the figures that I quoted would surely indicate that at the time they were taken—and they are the latest ones available—one really could not draw any conclusions at all from them except that there is a trend. When we have the next figures, which should be, I am told, early next month, we may have a much better indication of the direction in which they are going.

Lord BOYD-CARPENTER

My Lords, is it not a fact that a number of local authorities have been far more zealous in reducing the services they give to the community than in reducing the numbers of their employees?

Lord BELLWIN

Yes, indeed, my Lords, that certainly is the case; but then I think one would have to accept that the circumstances differ in different authorities, as indeed does the degree of zealousness with which the various authorities try to carry out the Government's requirements. The fact is that if we do not succeed in reducing the general level of public expenditure then the debate as to the level of services could in time become somewhat academic.

Baroness SEEAR

My Lords, if one figure is going up and the other is going down would the noble Lord tell us what the trend is?

Lord BELLWIN

As I said, my Lords, the figures I quoted really show nothing of a trend other than that there is in general a slight decrease. One might expect the figures next time round to show a greater decrease.

Lord DAVIES of LEEK

My Lords, may I ask the Minister to say, despite his coruscating reply, which was blinding in its flashing and making the matter befogged, whether workers at the old folks' homes which have now been closed were considered industrial or non-industrial: and how many old folks' homes have been closed as a result of this?

Lord BELLWIN

My Lords, the noble Lord will know that a statistic of that kind is not something I can readily trot out now; but in any case this only emphasises the point made by my noble friend Lord Boyd-Carpenter—namely, that what an authority does as regards its services when trying to reduce is costs, first of all will vary very considerably as from one authority to another, and, secondly, there will be those authorities which will be more concerned to ensure that what they reduce are the costs of administration and of providing services rather than the cost of the services themselves.