JUBILEE HALL, COVENT GARDEN: LISTED BUILDINGS (Hansard, 18 February 1980)

§ Lord AVEBURY
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON
My Lords, in 1972, as a result of a special survey of the Covent Garden area, more than 200 buildings were added to the statutory list of buildings of special architectural or historic interest. Jubilee Hall was not among them and this view was shared by the inspector who conducted the local plan inquiry.
The question of listing Jubilee Hall has been reconsidered many times since then, but successive Secretaries of State have concluded that the hall does not have the special architectural or historic qualities necessary for listing.

§ Lord AVEBURY
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that that is not the opinion of bodies such as the Civic Trust, Save Britain's Heritage and the 481 Victorian Society, which have all recommended that the building should be preserved? Moreover, is the noble Lord aware that prominent sportsmen such as Alan Pascoe, John Taylor, Brian Clough and Henry Cooper have all said that the sporting facilities provided in that building are of extreme importance both to the residents of the area and to those who work in it? Will he accept an invitation to go there, for example, on Sunday morning to see the very large numbers of young people taking part in roller-skating, and then to reconsider the matter and, at the very least, to call in an application for listed building consent, as there is power to do under the 1971 Act, when the application is made?

§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON
My Lords, I should be delighted to go there any Sunday morning with the noble Lord, Lord Avebury. I fully appreciate that it is a splendid sports area. However, I must point out to the noble Lord, and to your Lordships in general, that listing is not there to deal with the social functions of buildings. I am aware that certain of the Victorian groups and heritage societies have expressed disquiet. However, I can only repeat that this matter has been around since about 1972. It was looked at in depth again by the last Government in 1977, and when we made our announcement in October 1979 it was declared that it really would be final because otherwise the GLC and the developers would never know where they stand.

§ Lord STRABOLGI
My Lords, may I ask the Government whether they are aware that, if it had not been for the timely intervention of Mr. Geoffrey Rippon, the GLC would have allowed the property developers to demolish almost the whole of Covent Garden? Will the noble Lord ask his right honourable friend the present Secretary of State to try and carry on in the spirit of Mr. Rippon's excellent example, and try to save this hall because, as the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, has said, its preservation is supported by the Victorian Society, the Civic Trust and many other amenity societies? Will he do something about it?

§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON
Yes, my Lords. I appreciate what the noble Lord has said. However, there was the local planning inquiry, as he knows, in 1977. It is really in the light of that inquiry that we are talking. Although I much regret the possible fate of any big building, the facts are as I have stated.

The Lord Bishop of LONDON
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that it is not only the amenities societies but the Forum of Representatives, which represent all the community activities in this area, who are totally and unanimously opposed to the refusal to grant listed building consent, and are absolutely opposed to the destruction of this building since they believe that it is essential to the community activities in the area?

§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON
My Lords, I must repeat to the right reverend Prelate that listing is not for social purposes. My honourable friend Mr. Monro has expressed the very clear view to the GLC and to developers—whoever they might be—that, if the development were to take place, he hopes that at least 5,000 square feet will be allocated for sporting purposes.

§ Lord DONALDSON of KINGS-BRIDGE
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that many of us are disturbed chiefly by the fact that the best individual adviser available is actually mentioned by name in the papers as having given perfectly clear advice that this hall should be given a Grade 2 listing? We are very surprised and greatly distressed that the Minister should overrule anyone whom we all trust as much as Mr. Lloyd Warburton.

§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON
My Lords, the noble Lord is as aware as I am of the facts of the situation. It is not for me to comment on whether the Secretary of State in the last Administration or my Secretary of State overruled that particular gentleman. I repeat: listing does not take account of the social use of a building. I must also repeat that, obviously, I am not an expert on listed buildings, but one must take advice and this is what the Secretaries of State have done, both in the last Government and my own Government.

§ Lord DONALDSON of KINGS-BRIDGE
My Lords, it is because the Secretary of State has not taken the advice that we are objecting.

§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON
My Lords, I shall most certainly bring this to the attention of my right honourable friend.

The Earl of GOSFORD
My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord to thank his noble friend Lord Bellwin for the Answers to my Questions on the Jubilee Hall which I put down for Written Answer? Is the Minister aware that the proposals for the redevelopment of this space next to the hall, and of the hall itself, include a sports hall which is to be half the size of the existing building? I was down there yesterday. They had a roller-skating session all morning which was in great popular demand. The smaller hall would not be able to cater for such a sport. Is the noble Lord aware that the Chinese international table tennis team played there yesterday afternoon, attracting a large crowd? Is he also aware that recently £75,000 has been spent on doing up the hall, and that no structural work was necessary?—it is in very good condition, indeed.

§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON
My Lords, I am aware of all that the noble Earl has said. I am also aware that the £75,000 was spent in the certain knowledge that the building would not be in use for more than five years.

§ Lord AVEBURY
My Lords, is the Minister aware that the amount of open space in this area is very much less than is laid down by the department in its guidelines, and that the sporting facilities provided by the hall, notwithstanding the fact that they may not be taken into account in listed building consent, to some extent make up for this—including providing playing facilities for two primary schools (St. Clement Danes and Drury Lane) which they would not otherwise have? Is the Minister aware that among the proposals submitted to the GLC for the development of this site was one by the Jewish Cultural Foundation, which involved the preservation of the Jubilee Hall? Will he not urge his friends in the GLC to have another look at this to see whether the proposals submitted by 484 that foundation could not be revived and the hall thus preserved?

§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON
My Lords, I shall certainly bring all these matters to the attention of my right honourable friend and my friends in the GLC, but I hold out no confidence that they will in any way change their minds.