§ 2.44 p.m.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will make a statement about the Helsinki Agreement on Human Rights.
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, I would draw the attention of the noble Lord to the Government's latest report on Soviet and Eastern European implementation of the Helsinki Final Act, 158 including its human rights provisions to which I referred in my reply on 19th December to a Question from my noble friend Lady Elliot of Harwood. The Government of course deeply deplore the continuing deterioration in human rights observance by the Soviet Union in the intervening period, particularly the treatment of Dr. Sakharov and members of the Helsinki monitoring groups.
Lord JANNERMy Lords, while appreciating and offering my thanks to the Government, not only for the reply that has been given now but for their activities for quite a considerable time in this particular direction, has the noble Lord's attention been drawn to the very serious matter which has arisen, I think only yesterday, of the arrest of four psychiatrists who have been protesting against the horrific methods by which psychiatric centres are being used in the USSR? With thanks from ourselves and those who are interested—and I am sure everybody in the House of Lords is—for what the Government have done in these respects, may I ask them to have another look and see what they can do in regard to such cases as, for example, those of Sakharov, to which the noble Lord has referred, and Shcheransky and Nudel?
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, the noble Lord first referred to the question of the psychiatrists. I do not have information on that case in front of me. As the noble Lord said, it arose only yesterday. Since the last report, to which I referred in my original Answer, the Soviet authorities appear to have stepped up their oppression of human rights activists of all kinds, and that includes the arrest of two further members of the Moscow Helsinki Monitoring Group; the harsh sentencing of three members of the Ukrainian Group; and further arrests of religious activists. We are, of course, keeping up our pressure in individual cases where it looks as though it will be helpful.
§ Lord AVEBURYMy Lords, as long as the Soviet Union continues to violate the Helsinki Agreement, and in particular to victimise distinguished scientists such as Sakharov who has been mentioned, Shcheransky, Orlov and Lerner, does the noble Lord not think that at least we should take retaliatory action against them by discouraging scientific contacts 159 between ourselves and the Soviet Union which were also provided for under the Helsinki Agreement but which have not enabled our scientists and engineers to be successful in the representations that they have made for the release of their Soviet counterparts? Does he know that there is a meeting arranged in Hamburg next month under the auspices of the British Government, between United Kingdom and Soviet scientists and engineers, and in view of these latest developments would it not be appropriate for that meeting to be cancelled?
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, talks of us taking retaliatory action as regards these matters. I do not think that two wrongs make a right. As for Western participation in the forum in Hamburg to which the noble Lord referred: the CSE Scientific Forum, as it is called, is, in fact, nongovernmental. However, the action of the Soviet Government against Dr. Sakharov and other scientists is relevant to the subject matter of the forum, and the Government's repugnance at those actions has, of course, been clearly expressed. We are confident that the Government's attitude will be taken into account by the British scientists in Hamburg and I think that that may prove helpful.
§ Lord WIGGMy Lords, as the Minister's concern and the Government's concern for human rights is on a universal scale, will he be good enough to tell the House whether the Foreign Secretary raised with General Zia the question of the treatment of Mrs. Bhutto and her daughter? They have long been confined to their house and the servants have been removed. If the Foreign Secretary did not raise that matter with General Zia, why did he not do so?
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, the Question on the Order Paper refers to the Helsinki Agreement on Human Rights and, of course, Pakistan is not a participant in the Helsinki Agreement. However, I can, of course, say that we deplore action which acts against the human rights of anybody in the world, wherever he may be.
§ Lord WIGGMy Lords, would the Minister be good enough to answer my question? Did the Foreign Secretary 160 raise this matter with General Zia? If he did not, why not?
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, I was trying to be helpful to the noble Lord without being rude. The Question on the Order Paper refers to the Helsinki Agreement. Pakistan is not a signatory to the Helsinki Agreement and the noble Lord's supplementary was therefore not appropriate.
Lord JANNERMy Lords, I hope that the noble Lord will forgive me for putting one more question. Can he tell the House how other civilised signatories to the Helsinki Agreement have reacted to approaches which have been made by our Government? Have our Government been in contact with them telling them of the very important actions that they themselves are taking?
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, I cannot answer for other Governments. However, apart from informal contacts, we are now preparing ourselves for the Madrid Review Conference of the Helsinki Final Act, which is due to take place in November later this year.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, is the Minister aware that there is pretty well unanimous support for the views expressed in this House this afternoon about the enormities perpetrated by the Soviet Government, especially in the last year or so, against human rights in that country and elsewhere? Nevertheless we would support a thoughtful approach to the question of whether to participate in meetings such as that in Hamburg, especially those which stem from the Belgrade Conference, which will be, with others, reporting to the Madrid Conference later this year. So, while condemnation of Soviet practices must continue unabated with the full support of the House, delicacy about various contacts which may prove useful and helpful to people now in duress in the Soviet Union should also be borne in mind.
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, the noble Lord is, of course, entirely right. I think I understood from what he said that the Hamburg forum, to which the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, also referred, will be another useful opportunity to bring 161 home to the Soviet people the repugnance of all of us at what they are doing.
§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, is it not the case that this matter goes far beyond the Soviet Union? Did not the United Nations survey say that there were 80 countries which are now denying human rights, and therefore the picture must be much broader?
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, I am sure that the noble Lord is right, but I can only repeat that the Question on the Order Paper relates to the Helsinki Agreement.