ROADS: DAMAGE BY HEAVY VEHICLES (Hansard, 7 February 1980)

§ Lord BOYD-CARPENTER
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON
My Lords, the report was published on 6th December.

§ Lord BOYD-CARPENTER
My Lords, while thanking my noble friend for that reply, and expressing the hope that he will send me a copy, may I have an assurance that no action will be taken by Her Majesty's Government to increase the permitted weight or size of road vehicles until there has been full opportunity to discuss the substance of this very important technical report?

§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON
My Lords, I am happy to tell my noble friend that there are, at the moment, very clear rules about axle spacing for heavy lorries in the Construction and Use Regulations. These apply to all vehicles using our roads. The load that a trailer is permitted to carry also depends on the spacing of the axles. I can assure my noble friend, and other noble Lords who are interested, that we are all waiting eagerly for Sir Arthur Armitage's report, because he and his assessors are going into this matter in very great depth.

§ Lord BOYD-CARPENTER
My Lords, without under-rating Sir Arthur Armi 1494 tage's comments, may I have the assurance that I asked for, that there will be full opportunity for public discussion before any amendment is made to the regulations?

§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON
Certainly, my Lords. The report of Sir Arthur Armitage and his assessors will be made public and there will be every opportunity to discuss it after that.

§ Lord AVEBURY
My Lords, will the noble Lord confirm that report LR.910 shows that damage to the road surface increases according to the fourth power of the axle load; that, therefore, heavy vehicles are causing a disproportionate amount of damage to our road surfaces in this country and that the owners of these vehicles are paying, in the form of vehicle taxation, very much less than the costs which they are imposing on the rest of the community? Are these not very important facts which have been revealed in relation to the current discussion regarding the increase in the permitted weights of vehicles on our roads?

§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON
My Lords, I must repeat that we have no intention of permitting increased axle loads and things like that at this moment. We are awaiting the report of Sir Arthur Armitage and his four assessors. With regard to the noble Lord's question about taxation, as he may know, we have issued a consultation paper setting out our proposals to restructure vehicle excise duty so that it will be related to the gross weights and number of axles on the vehicle.

§ Lord DAVIES of LEEK
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that these noisome monstrosities are making life intolerable in some of the little villages, and that bridges are being destroyed? For years, the average citizen has protested, and he has now given up the ghost. Secondly, is the noble Lord aware that, despite the fact that the noble Lord has said with all honesty, as a great English gentleman, that we have no intention of increasing the loads, we have had to accept the tachograph and shall have to accept the 44-tonne vehicle if the EEC so decides? What is Britain going to do about this? Lastly, the economics of 1495 driving these massive monstrosities like madmen from one end of Britain to the other are costing the nation things that it does not know. At last, we are finding that we ought to get something back on to the railways.

§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON
My Lords, I know that it is a popular fallacy in this country that the railways would be able to take all that the roads are taking——

§ Lord DAVIES of LEEK
I did not say that.

Lord MOW BRAY and STOURTON
——but I assure your Lordships that it is totally impossible for the railways to take more than just a token amount off the roads. What I do say to the noble Lord is that it is up to local road authorities to divert heavy loads, where that is possible. Only last week, we opened a by-pass around the historic town of Ludlow. We regret deeply that, for obvious financial reasons, the last Government and this Government have had to delay by-passes around 20 other historic towns. We are well aware of all the facts which the noble Lord has mentioned, and I totally sympathise. I do not think that the tachograph really relates to this Question. Used intelligently, the tachograph can guide drivers to safer driving, and will also safeguard a man against overdriving which might endanger his own health and safety.

Lord INGLEWOOD
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that there is all the difference in the world between having regulations setting down acceptable limits for axle loads, and having a reasonably efficient system of law enforcement to ensure that those limits are not exceeded? At the present time, there is a widespread feeling in the country that, whatever may be said in the regulations, those who are a little unscrupulous can get away with almost anything.

§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON
My Lords, I totally accept what my noble friend has said. He knows a lot about this subject. We have been trying to get more weighbridges put in where spot checks can be made and, speaking offhand, I think we have some 30—which I 1496 accept is not enough—dotted around the country. But we are well aware of the problem on that point and at the ports, in particular, we are watching vehicles coming in from, for instance, the Continent.

§ Lord SHINWELL
My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord the Minister what measures Her Majesty's Government can take against lorries from Continental countries, the countries of the Nine, with very heavy loads which are damaging our roads? Are we not under the control of the EEC in this respect? What is the use of complaining about the tachograph, or any other kind of restriction or imposition that has been thrust upon us, since we were foolish enough to sign the Treaty of Accession? We deserve everything we get.

§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON
My Lords, I am very sorry if I upset the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, but I have to tell him that our regulations apply to EEC vehicles coming into this country, and we are able to turn away those which do not meet our regulations.

§ The Earl of ONSLOW
My Lords, will the noble Lord please ensure that the designation of lorry routes will be speeded up? Is he aware that at the moment designation is not done? Secondly, is he aware that the report to which the Question refers covers only road damage and shows that considerable damage is being done? But the Armitage Report refers to heavy lorries and the environment, which is slightly wider than the present Road Research Laboratory report.

§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON
My Lords, the Department of the Environment and the Department of Transport have for long been trying to encourage local authorities to take action of this kind. They have the powers. The two departments concerned try to get bypasses and new routes, but we have a democratic process in this country which allows people to object, and those democratic rights have a slowing-up effect. As regards the noble Earl's last question about the Armitage Report, I do not know whether he is aware of its terms. It was to undertake an independent inquiry on lorries, people and the environment. So I think that it covers all the points that he is worried about.

§ Lord ELWYN-JONES
My Lords, does the noble Lord agree that when these huge lorries go through small villages, pedestrians can generally be described as of one of two classes—either the quick or the dead?

§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON
My Lords, as usual, the noble and learned Lord is right.

§ Lord LUCAS of CHILWORTH
My Lords, would not my noble friend agree that, whether we like it or not, there is a case to be put for increased axle weights? Whether or not noble Lords agree with the case is another matter, but their case should be put within the context of the Armitage Report and an opportunity then given for a public and then perhaps a parliamentary debate on this subject.

§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON
My Lords, my noble friend probably knows more about this subject than me. However, I cannot pre-empt the Armitage Report. This is exactly the sort of problem he has been asked to consider.

The MINISTER of STATE, MINISTRY of AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES and FOOD (Earl Ferrers)
Clearly, my Lords, we have not exhausted the possible supplementaries on this Question, but I wonder whether your Lordships think that it would be appropriate if we moved on to the next Question.