HL Deb 06 February 1980 vol 404 cc1335-7

2.51 p.m.

Lord JANNER

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what conditions are imposed upon licences to deal in armaments and what precautions are taken that they should not be used for terrorism or other illegal purposes.

The PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY of STATE, HOME OFFICE (Lord Belstead)

My Lords, the firearms legislation provides for the chief officer of police to decide what conditions should be attached to a firearms dealer's registration certificate, including specific conditions relating to security. It requires that a register is kept of all transactions, and that within the United Kingdom arms are sold or transferred only to someone authorised under the Act to take possession. Authority from the Secretary of State is required by anyone wishing to deal in prohibited weapons such as machine guns and tear gas weapons; conditions relating to security and the recording of transactions are usually attached to such an authority. Transfer of arms to destinations outside the United Kingdom is subject to the Export of Goods (Control) Order 1978, and each transaction requires an export licence.

Lord JANNER

My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for his reply, may I ask him whether his attention has been drawn to the very serious allegations which have been laid in the case of Frank Terpil in the United States, where it is alleged that vast amounts of arms have been supplied, first, to former President Amin, a murderer, and, secondly, to the PLO, which is committed to murder in accordance with its National Covenant of 1964? Will he let us know whether he is prepared to examine legislation which exists in other States, including America, and find out whether or not more stringent legislation should be enacted in this country?

Lord BELSTEAD

My Lords, the Government most certainly share the concern which has been expressed by the noble Lord. I should like to look again, if I may, at the particular instances which the noble Lord has just specified. So far as the sale and the dealing in of prohibited weapons within the United Kingdom is concerned, there are the licensing procedures which I outlined in my reply. So far as getting weapons out of the United Kingdom is concerned, there is the Export of Goods Control Order. Taken together, that range of controls provides a very close control over the sale and movement of what are called prohibited weapons. Certainly my noble friend has an open mind as to whether more legislation might be needed, and of course he will take very seriously into account anything which may be said in your Lordships' House.

Lord JANNER

My Lords, may I thank the noble Lord for the reply he has given and ask him to consider how it was possible for arms, which I think our own authorities have admitted to have been sent from this country for illegal purposes, to have been supplied to a very considerable extent through agents in this country and by the people who are referred to in the investigation that is being carried on in America and similar dealers? Will he please see to it that no arms are supplied to such murderous organisations as the PLO or the previous Ugandan régime, because that would be entirely contrary to the Genocide Convention?

Lord BELSTEAD

My Lords, I repeat again that the Government most certainly share the concern which the noble Lord is expressing, but may I make it crystal clear to the noble Lord that each application for an export order is considered on its merits in the light of a whole range of factors—political, strategic, security, economic, arms control and, indeed, human rights. These considerations of course involve close scrutiny by different Government departments.