HL Deb 18 December 1980 vol 415 cc1197-8
Lord Boyd-Carpenter

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government how much butter has been provided by the EEC to the USSR this year at subsidised prices; and what has been the average margin between price and cost.

Lord Sandys

My Lords, the European Commission estimates that 98,000 tonnes of butter was exported to the Soviet Union at subsidised prices in the period January to September 1980. The average margin between the sale price to the Soviet Union and the cost in the European Community cannot be assessed precisely, but the average subsidy has been of the order of 50 pence per pound.

Lord Boyd-Carpenter

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that very helpful reply. Will he not agree that it is profoundly depressing, in a world where there is so much hardship and starvation, that no more worthy recipient of this very substantial benefit can be found than the Government which is at this moment occupying Afghanistan and threatening Poland?

Lord Sandys

Yes, my Lords. The Government entirely agree with what my noble friend has said. I would emphasise the Government's attitude. As the House, the Commission and other member states all know, the United Kingdom Government are totally opposed to sales of subsidised food to Russia. Most other member states do not agree, and the Foreign Affairs Council decision on 15th January this year allows exports up to traditional levels.

Lord Goronwy-Roberts

My Lords, will the Minister agree that a more worthy recipient in contemporary circumstances would be Poland? Is this country in full support of the EEC intention to send foodstuffs to Poland? Can the noble Lord give details of the value and volume and any indication of a subsidised price for these items, if indeed they are subsidised?

Lord Sandy's

My Lords, this is, in fact, outside the exact terms of the Question, but I think that I can help the noble Lord, Lord Goronwy-Roberts, to this extent. To other Eastern European countries—and that might include Poland, but I have no precise information—14,389 tonnes were exported in the course of this period.

Lord Goronwy-Roberts

My Lords, can the noble Lord indicate what the price per kilo or pound was, and whether or not a subsidy was involved in that case, as in the Russian case?

Lord Sandys

My Lords, that is another question, but my understanding is that it was equivalent.

Lord Mackie of Benshie

My Lords, is it not a fact that this is purely the result of EEC policy and that the surpluses are needed in order to ensure our supply? Is it not a fact that this is part of the CAP; that it is a cheaper way of supporting farming; and that, in fact, the sale to the Russians is a sale to the customer offering the best price for the surplus?

Lord Sandys

My Lords, yes. I do not think that I can add very much to what my noble friend Lord Ferrers said on 21st November last year. I quote his words in this context: The discussions of the Council of Ministers are of a confidential nature and I could not tell my noble friend what were the arguments used. But I will tell him this: if there is a surplus of butter, then that has to be disposed of throughout the world. It is a trading matter to dispose of it. The fact is that the Council of Ministers did not agree that there should be a ban on all sales to Russia."—[Official Report, 21/11/79; col. 1121

Lord Boyd-Carpenter

My Lords, is it not the fact that there have been surpluses of this kind for some years? Is it not an indication of a failure by those who administer the CAP that these surpluses have not by now been eliminated, and are therefore now being used in this outrageous way?

Lord Sandys

Yes, my Lords, these surpluses have existed over a number of years. The fact is, though, that sales specifically to Russia have not taken place every year. I could give my noble friend details.

Lord Gladwin

My Lords, is it not a fact that the butter mountain has been consistently reduced during the last few years?

Lord Sandys

My Lords, it is true that the system of tendering has changed within the last 12 months.