The Community Enterprise Programme (Hansard, 17 December 1980)

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, the Manpower Services Commission has been asked, in drawing up plans for the new Community Enterprise Programme, to make provision for the private sector to participate to a greater extent than is possible at present under the Special Temporary Employment Programme. This will be achieved both by doubling the overall number of employment opportunities available and by allowing sponsors of schemes to derive a private gain from sponsorship, providing the gain is secondary to the community benefit which all schemes must provide.

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, while I thank my noble friend for that Answer and while I realise that he dealt with some aspects of this matter earlier this week following a Question from my noble friend Lady Elliot, I should like to ask him whether the trade unions have taken any initiative in this matter and, if they have not done so, have they been consulted, because their co-operation is absolutely fundamental to the success of this excellent project?

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, while I thank my my noble friend for her comments about the character of the project, I should like to reassure her that consultation is, of course, involved due to the tripartite nature of the Manpower Services Commission. I certainly agree with her that one needs the co-operation of trade unions, because the last thing that we want to do is to give the impression that, in helping young people, we are in some way denying other people their legitimate job.

§ Lord Rochester
My Lords, will the noble Earl further agree that the district manpower committees, set up under the Manpower Services Commission throughout the country, are well constituted to achieve the objective which the noble Baroness has in mind, as the trade unions are represented on them? Are not those particular committees very well placed to initiate and to concert action to increase the number of projects sponsored not only by local authorities and private employers, but also by voluntary organisations under the Community Enterprise Programme?

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, as I said in an earlier Answer this week, finding the money for these schemes is only half the battle. One needs the most plural, widespread approach in terms of sponsorships, whether they are private employers, district manpower committees, local authorities or the rest. We urge everybody to try to put their backs into this great national effort.

§ Lord Shinwell
My Lords, I should like to ask the noble Earl whether the term "local" mentioned in the Question which is being asked by the noble Baroness means "local authorities"? If it does mean local authorities, are they to be responsible financially for the organisation and maintenance of any particular enterprise?

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, in the main, the position is as follows: the Government provide the finance for the administration of these schemes and also the finance for the allowances paid to the young 1102 people or the unemployed people who are on these schemes. But they also need the co-operation of employers, including local authority employers, to try to provide the places which are necessary and the training schemes which are necessary. But the main burden of the financing is, of course, taken by the Government.

§ Lord Shinwell
My Lords, in that event I should like to ask the noble Earl—and I think that this is a pertinent question and by no means an impertinent question—if it involves expenditure, how consistent is that proposal with the cutting back of expenditure which has been imposed on the local authorities? Will the Government be kind enough to explain these inconsistencies and contradictions which appear almost every day and almost every minute in their policy?

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, I could not disagree more profoundly with the noble Lord and I hope that he will not look upon that as in any way impertinent—to use his phrase. The fact is that the cutbacks imposed on local authorities are very small in relation to the size of their total budgets.
The second point is, as I said in my previous answer to the noble Lord, that the general financing of these provisions is taken up by central Government through the MSC. The fact that local authorities have been subjected to some of the constraints which all of us are under, given the present state of the economy, does not mean that they are not still very major employers in this country and, therefore, have a part to play in providing these opportunities.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that the problem of unemployment is as serious in the rural areas as it is in the urban areas? Will he ensure that these projects are extended to small employers in villages and in the rural areas of the country generally?

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, with his experience of rural areas, for making that point. One of the reasons for setting up the Community Enterprise Programme is that it can operate on a national level and that, of course, will bring the rural areas into its orbit.

§ Lord Northfield
My Lords, in the light of the noble Earl's reply to a previous supplementary question and of the fact that the Government are increasing expenditure to help the unemployed, will the noble Earl have a look at the plans of the MSC to close skill centres in various parts of the country? Is not that very shortsighted, given that many of these people—particularly young people—could benefit from training in new skills and, thus, be more readily absorbed? In many cases, this decision to close these skill centres was made before the Government's plans were announced to spend more on assisting the unemployed.

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, I think that there has been a certain amount of confusion over this issue, and I am glad to take the opportunity posed by the noble Lord's supplementary question to clear it up. Skill centres are to some degree related to local em- 1103 ployment needs, and the Government and the MSC have closed skill centres only when there has been a poverty of demand for those particular skills in special areas. Of course, we are a mismatched economy to some degree, and it is possible for there to be a considerable demand for skills in one area which is not supported by another area. We are trying to get the balance of provision roughly right.

§ Lord Northfield
My Lords, will the noble Earl have a look at Shropshire, where the demand is high and the closure is still going ahead?

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, I shall be very happy to have a look at any skill centre which the noble Lord brings to my attention.

§ Lord Davies of Leek
My Lords, I should like to pay a tribute to all those working in the Manpower Services Commission—it is only fair for me to do so. Will the Government look at the resurgence in the use of horses on small farms in rural areas? The trade of farrier and blacksmith in some cases is increasing again because of the expense of fuel needed to run the small farms. It is a little point which is worth consideration.

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, one of the pleasures of this House is that very often the supplementary questions which one expects from one's own side are expressed by the side opposite. I should be delighted to try to provide horses for any courses which the noble Lord may suggest.