Lords Sitting of 8 August 1980

Preamble
(Sitting in the Royal Gallery)
The House met at eleven of the clock: The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of London.

ZAMBIAN ENGINEERING SERVICES' OFFICE
Lord HATCH of LUSBY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they approve the opening of the Zambian Engineering Services' office in Ashford, Kent, and whether they will encourage further such third world investment in Britain.
Lord TREFGARNE: My Lords, the Government most certainly welcomed the opening of the Zambian Engineering Services' new headquarters in Ashford, Kent, on 5th June, and the capital investment that that enterprise represents. The Government will continue to encourage foreign investment in Britain.
Lord HATCH of LUSBY: My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for that Answer, may I ask him to be very careful in what he says about this question, because I do not know whether he knows but the Zambian Engineering Services is part of a nationalised industry in Zambia, and I would hate him to get into trouble with either his masters or his mistress over this issue. In view of the fact that this service is employing 230 British workers, may I ask him whether he would agree that it would be a very good idea for British firms and British nationalised industries to create further links with industries in the third world, in order to assist them, in particular, in processing the raw materials which are extracted from their countries?
Lord TREFGARNE: My Lords, that is a most interesting supplementary
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question but it does not arise from the Question on the Order Paper.
Lord HATCH of LUSBY: My Lords, I am asking whether the Government agree that it would be a good idea to encourage British firms to pursue the same line in third world countries as the Zambians have in this country. Would it not be an assistance, both for British industry and for the development of world trade, if British firms and British nationalised industries linked up with firms of this kind, Zambian Engineering Services, in joint ventures, particularly for the processing of raw materials in third world countries?
Lord TREFGARNE: My Lords, the Question on the Order Paper refers to third world investment in Britain, not British investment in the third world.

USSR: JEWISH EXIT VISAS
11.10 a.m.
Lord JANNER: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are aware of the recent cut in exit visas given by the Soviet authorities to Jews who have applied to emigrate, as shown by such refusals as the 3,000 during the last six months in Kiev, and whether they will take steps at the Madrid review of the Helsinki Agreement to deal with this violation of the United Nations Human Rights Charter.
Lord TREFGARNE: Yes, my Lords, we are aware of the recent drop in the number of exit visas being granted, and we deplore the harassment of those in the Soviet Union who have protested at this. We shall be pressing for improved performance at Madrid.
Lord JANNER: My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord, not only for what he has said today but for what the Government have done in this particular direction, may I ask him whether he would keep in mind that the Soviet action is quite contrary, not only to the Helsinki Agree-

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ment but actually to the laws which the USSR profess to have on their statute book?
Lord TREFGARNE: My Lords, we entirely agree with the noble Lord that this situation is deplorable. The average number of visas issued per month last year was about 4,000, and the number issued in June this year was only 1,500.

VANUATU (THE NEW HEBRIDES)
11.11 a.m.
Lord BROCKWAY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will make a Statement on the situation in Vanuatu (the New Hebrides).
Lord TREFGARNE: My Lords, the New Hebrides became independent on 30th July. They adopted the name of Vanuatu, and became the 44th member of the Commonwealth. On 29th July the Government of Vanuatu asked both Britain and France to leave our troops in the country for a total of three weeks after independence. We and the French have both acceded to this request. British and French officials met in London yesterday as a prelude to a ministerial meeting on 12th August. Ministers will then consider how we can best help the Vanuatu Government to deal with their problems on the island of Santo.
Lord BROCKWAY: But, my Lords, does not the rebellion still continue, and have not the British and French Governments very great responsibility, in view of the divisive policy under the condominium which led to this situation? May I ask the noble Lord whether it would not have been comparatively easy to arrest the leaders of the rebellion during the arrow stage, and can he confirm whether large amounts of American ammunition are now being sent to the rebels, as well as dynamite for blowing up bridges? Constructively, could the British Government not enter into discussions with the Governments of Australia, Fiji and Papua
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New Guinea for a settlement of this problem?
Lord TREFGARNE: My Lords, we have always preferred to solve this matter peacefully rather than by means of arresting people left, right and centre, or by military action, and that I think we have achieved.
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether he is aware that it is most gratifying that there is this continuing, or, perhaps, resuming, co-operation between us and the French in supporting the democratically-elected government of Father Lini in Vanuatu? Everybody will hope that when the Papua New Guinea contingent arrives, either on Santo or Vila, there will be co-operation with that third element in what is essentially a peace-keeping force well within the terms of what was approved on previous, similar occasions by the United Nations Organisation. Can the noble Lord be explicit about disposing of the rumours that quantities of arms and ammunition have been shipped to Santo from, one hears, the United States of America? It would be helpful if the Minister could dispose of that rumour. Some of us believe that such rumours are unfounded, but I am not aware that there has been a ministerial statement to this effect. Perhaps the noble Lord can help the House.
Finally, in talking about co-operation, we presume that, as always, there are the best possible relations between our soldiers in the New Hebrides—Vanuatu—and the local population.
Lord TREFGARNE: My Lords, if I may answer the last supplementary question first, it appears to be the case that our troops have enjoyed their detachment in the New Hebrides thus far; for no less than five, I understand, have become engaged to local ladies. As to the rumours of the arms supplied to the rebels, the evidence to support those rumours is purely circumstantial and is not so far supported by any real facts. But we have asked our High Commissioner to look into them.
Lord BROCKWAY: My Lords, is the noble Lord able to answer the supplementary question that I put to him as to

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whether the Government will enter into discussions with Australia, Fiji and Papua New Guinea in order to deal with those problems? Is it not the case that the present government there not only obtained an overwhelming majority in the New Hebrides but even a majority on the island of Santo?
Lord TREFGARNE: Yes, my Lords, it is the case that the Government there achieved a real majority in the recent elections. They are now an independent nation with a duly elected Government and thus the question of alliance with Australia or Papua New Guinea must be one for them.
Lord LEATHERLAND: My Lords, my concern being with the five young ladies who are engaged to the British troops, when the troops return to Britain will permission be given to the five young ladies to accompany them?
Lord TREFGARNE: My Lords, I am not sure whether the young ladies will wish to accompany the soldiers in question or whether the soldiers would prefer to remain in the New Hebrides.

SCIENTOLOGY: CONSULTATIONS
11.16 a.m.
Lord ORR-EWING: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they consulted the United States Government before deciding to lift the ban on aliens coming to the United Kingdom for the purpose of taking expensive courses in scientology and whether they will set up a committee to investigate the practices of scientology, "Moonies" and other like organisations.
The PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE (HOME OFFICE) (Lord Belstead): No, my Lords. The Government took into account some recent convictions of scientologists in the United States of America, but did not consider that these were sufficient to justify maintaining the general ban on
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people coming from overseas to work for or study scientology. The Government have no plans to set up an official inquiry into scientology and similar organisations.
Lord ORR-EWING: My Lords, does my noble friend note, after reading the scientology article in the Readers' Digest of May 1980, that it described them as a malignant cult? The scientologists and the "Moonies" seek to capture the minds of young people and, in particular, to separate them from their parents. This causes a great deal of pain and grief to such parents. Can he assure the House that the Home Office change in attitude in no way implies approval of this cult? Would he consider that perhaps an inquiry might be held and that perhaps a Select Committee of this House might be an appropriate body to undertake such an inquiry so that they could look into the workings of the scientologists and the "Moonies" and the damage that they do to many young people?
Lord BELSTEAD: My Lords, my noble friend kindly showed me a copy of the Readers' Digest article to which he referred, but as the statement by my right honourable friend the Home Secretary on 16th July in another place made clear, he believes that there is no sufficiently strong current evidence to justify continuing the ban which was originally placed on scientology in 1968 on medical grounds. That was one of the two grounds upon which the general ban was based.
My noble friend, understandably, asks if this means that the Government therefore approve of the activities of the scientologies. I am glad to have the opportunity to make it clear that there is no question of our endorsing the activities or beliefs of such sects; but we do not at present consider that a public inquiry is appropriate. Whether a Select Committee of your Lordships' House might be interested in this matter, is a matter for the House.
Baroness GAITSKELL: My Lords, may I plead with the Government to have an inquiry into this organisation? Is the noble Lord aware that I have had many friends who have gone to scientologists and have had long courses? In the first place, I cannot understand why they call themselves the "Church of Scientology";

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they have nothing to do with the Church. Is the noble Lord further aware that years ago the head of the scientology organisation called on me and my husband? Several of my friends have had courses and have had a terrible time. Furthermore, is the noble Lord aware that I can produce a dossier on these people from those who have had experience of scientology—a dossier which is a complete indictment of the whole of the organisation? I hope that the Government will think again.
Lord BELSTEAD: My Lords, the Government agree entirely with the views of the noble Baroness so far as the question of the use of the word "church" is concerned. My right honourable friend's Statement on 16th July indicated that scientologists will not be allowed the special concessions for admission outside the work permit scheme for ministers of religion and missionaries. On those grounds we certainly agree with the noble Baroness. Where I must register disagreement with the noble Baroness is that we do not believe at the moment that an inquiry would be appropriate.
Lord BOSTON of FAVERSHAM: My Lords, while it is clearly desirable that there should be as much free movement of people as possible, does the Minister appreciate that many people will have been disturbed by the lifting of this ban? Will he say whether the Government have considered the evidence adduced in the course of the inquiries in Australia and indeed during the course of the libel action brought by the Church of Scientology against the honourable Member Mr. Geoffrey Johnson Smith, in which my noble and learned friend Lord Elwyn-Jones led so successfully for the defence? The jury's decision clearly supported the conclusion of the then Minister of Health that scientology was socially harmful and that its methods could be a serious danger to the health of those who submitted to it.
Lord BELSTEAD: My Lords, the Government appreciate the concern which exists about the activities of sects such as the scientologists and continue to watch the position carefully. My right honourable friend considered all the available evidence before taking his decision. May I repeat that the decision was mainly based on the fact that there is no current
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evidence sufficiently strong to justify continuing the ban on medical grounds? May I add one last point: it is right to draw attention to the fact that those who have been convicted of offences will of course be refused entry as not being conducive to public good. This is a power which remains open.
Lord MONSON: My Lords, would the noble Lord, Lord Belstead, not agree that a great many people in this country warmly welcome the lifting of the ban on the temporary entry of foreign scientologists, not because they have any strong feelings about scientology one way or another, but because they believe that the imposition of an indiscriminate blanket ban without any satisfactory explanation ever having been given, whether in Parliament or elsewhere, is contrary to the traditions of a free society?
Lord BELSTEAD: My Lords, I do not think that I can add any more to the information which I have given to the House.
The Lord Bishop of LONDON: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord to appreciate that the anxiety which many people have concerns not so much the right of people to propagate their views, but the means which they employ in order to do so? Is he aware that very undesirable means are used, especially by the "Moonies", to capture the allegiance especially of young people and to retain it once they have initially succeeded? Will the Government therefore keep a very careful watch over what is already and is potentially further a very dangerous organisation?
Lord BELSTEAD: My Lords, I take the opportunity to repeat what I have already said; the Government will continue to watch the position carefully.
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, may I ask the Minister this? As it appears the Government are satisfied that there is no reason for restricting either the entry or the activities of scientologists, it implies that the Government must be satisfied that there are no harmful or socially harmful effects resulting from their activities. Is the noble Lord the Minister saying that the Government, in

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view of all the evidence available, feel that there are no socially harmful effects resulting from their activities?
Lord BELSTEAD: My Lords, I hope that the noble Lord will not think me discourteous when I simply say that the expression of opinion which the noble Lord has attributed to me is not what I said in the past few minutes. If the noble Lord cares to study the record, he will see that what he has been suggesting I have been saying is not the case.
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, I did not imply anything else. I said: Are we right in assuming that as the Government are not prepared to restrict the activities of the entry of scientologists when there is abundant evidence that they are socially harmful, and their beliefs are socially harmful, and are we not right in assuming that the Government do not feel that they are socially harmful?
Lord BELSTEAD: My Lords, all I can say is that I cannot agree with what the noble Lord is saying. If the noble Lord reads the Official Report, he will see the reasons why I am denying that.
Viscount ECCLES: My Lords, my noble friend must see that this decision is very disturbing to a lot of us. The Government cannot have come to it without having some idea of what are the basic beliefs of scientologists. Could the Minister tell us what they are?
Lord BELSTEAD: My Lords, the ban on entry extended in 1968 to people from overseas coming to work for or study scientology and to those who were engaged in promoting or extending the interests of and activities of scientology or otherwise engaging in its business. For the third time, I repeat that the main basis of my right honourable friend's Statement on 16th July in lifting the ban was because there is no sufficiently strong reason on current evidence to justify continuing the ban on medical grounds.
Lord ORR-EWING: My Lords, would my noble friend perhaps notice that in all parts of the House and in many parts of the country there is anxiety about these issues? Does this not make it more
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desirable to consider very seriously whether a Select Committee of this House would be a very appropriate body to look into the scientologists and the "Moonies"? Perhaps if it was the wish of the House that there should be set up through the normal channels such a committee it could include a Member from the Bishops' Benches because both organisations claim to be religious, which they are not. Perhaps we could also have some of the strong medical representation that we have in this House serving on a Select Committee. We have an abundant talent in that area. Many people believe that these organisations are doing great mental harm to the young people whom they capture in this way.
Lord BELSTEAD: My Lords, this is a matter for your Lordships' House.
Lord TAYLOR of BLACKBURN: My Lords, may I ask the Minister, in view of the statement that he has made, and in view of what has been said in the other place, whether this organisation is registered as a charity?
Lord BELSTEAD: My Lords, I am afraid that I am not briefed to answer that particular question. I will try and find out and let the noble Lord know.
Lord GAINFORD: My Lords, may I ask my noble friend the Minister whether his investigations into these organisations show that there is any truth in the story that the young people who are encouraged to join are put through a form of brainwashing? First of all, there is what is known as "love bombing" and then they are treated to deprivation of sleep and inadequate diet.
Lord BELSTEAD: My Lords, this would be entirely a matter for the police to follow up if there were any evidence to this effect.

CONSOLIDATED FUND (APPROPRIATION) (No. 2) BILL
11.29 a.m.
The MINISTER of STATE, TREASURY (Lord Cockfield): My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time.
Moved, that the Bill be now read 2ª.—(Lord Cockfield.)
On Question, Bill read 2ª: Committee negatived.
Then, Standing Order No. 43 having been suspended (pursuant to Resolution): Bill read 3ª, and passed.
Lord DENHAM: My Lords, I beg to move that this House do now adjourn during pleasure awaiting Royal Assent, until 11.40 a.m.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
[House adjourned during pleasure from 11.30 to 11.40 a.m.]

ROYAL ASSENT
The LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone): My Lords, I have to notify the House, in accordance with the Royal Assent Act 1967, that the Queen has signified her Royal Assent to the following Acts:

Deer Act,

Coal Industry Act,

Housing Act,

Tenants' Rights, Etc. (Scotland) Act,

Health Services Act,

Appropriation Act,

Pier and Harbour Order (Great Yarmouth Wellington Pier) Confirmation Act,

Dundee Port Authority Order Confirmation Act,

Scottish Widows' Fund and Life Assurance Society Act,

British Transport Docks Act,

South Yorkshire Act,

Southern Water Authority Act,

Eastbourne Harbour Act.

11.44 a.m.
The LORD PRESIDENT of THE COUNCIL (Lord Soames): My Lords, I beg to move that this House do now adjourn and, in so doing, I hope your Lordships will not take it amiss if I wish all Members of the House a pleasant and, as I think we all feel, a well-deserved Recess. Sitting here in the Royal Gallery over the last three weeks has not been at all easy for
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your Lordships, but the fact that it has been possible at all is due in large part to the exceptional service given to the House by the staff of the Parliament Office, by Black Rod and his doorkeepers, by the Refreshment Department and, not least, by the staff of the Official Report who, with the odds stacked heavily against them, have nevertheless succeeded in producing our daily Hansard to the normal high standard and without any delay at all. They have fulfilled their service to us in these circumstances as well as they have under normal circumstances and we are most grateful to them.
At the end of what I accept has been a long summer—certainly it has seemed so to me, at any rate—our staff have had to work under quite extraordinarily difficult conditions, and I am sure that the whole House will wish to join me in paying tribute to their very considerable achievement and in wishing them a good holiday. As I have already explained to the House, I very much hope we shall be able to return to our usual Chamber in October; in the meantime, I would again wish noble Lords in all parts of the House a relaxing and refreshing Recess.
Moved, That the House do now adjourn. —(Lord Soames.)
Lord PEART: My Lords, I, too, on behalf of the Opposition, would like to pay tribute to the staff. May I say that we are more than usually indebted to Black Rod for his constant care of the House and the astonishing speed with which he and his staff moved us into this Gallery. I am glad that we are going to get out of it soon. However, I wish to express great gratitude to all the staff for working so cheerfully under such conditions, and I would say that especially to our Hansard colleagues who have kept up their high standards in the Official Report—and indeed to our friends in the press as well. May I also thank all the staff, whatever section they may be in, and especially those who look after our stomachs and enable us to have drinks—the people in the Refreshment Department. We wish them all well and hope that they have a pleasant, long holiday.
I should like also to pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Soames, who has been new to this and has had an interruption

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with another position. We thank him for what he has done and for his courtesy.
Lord LLOYD of KILGERRAN: My Lords, may I, on behalf of those who do sit on these three Benches, also associate myself with the tributes which have been paid to the staff. I should like to say how well we are always served here by staff at all levels and particularly during these last few weeks, when it has been most noticeable what great service we have had at all times.
The noble Lord, Lord Peart, in his tribute referred to the Refreshment Department, and I wonder whether it would be appropriate for me to refer to one member of the staff. It is always invidious to refer to individual members of the staff but we have in the Refreshment Room been served very well by the lady there. We have seen that she is about to retire this summer, and therefore I wonder whether I might be allowed to associate this tribute personally to Miss Wilson for the 16 years in which she has served as head of the Refreshment Room.
The noble Lord the Lord President of the Council has, with his great eloquence, proposed the adjournment of this House and has made these tributes. We on these Benches would like also to pay a tribute to him for the great work he has done during this past year in his great office, during

June 1979

June 1980

Places

Places

Approved

Filled

Approved

Filled

Work experience on Employers Premises

124,600

41,100

143,800

51,000

Project Based Work Experience

13,000

5,400

18,000

6,900

Training Workshops

4,500

2,600

6,600

4,100

Community Service

13,600

6,400

22,700

12,600

Employment Induction Courses

1,500

100

2,300

100

Short Industrial Courses

25,500

3,800

37,000

400

Remedial Courses

1,600

100

Total: YOP

184,300

59,500

230,400

78,700

The number of places approved is not the same as the number of places available at any point in time. There are several reasons for this. For example, some sponsors do not inform MSC area offices that an approved scheme is not operating and this emerges only when a check is
which he has the great success that he has had in affairs outside this country as well as inside it. In conclusion, may I from these Benches wish your Lordships a happy and refreshing Recess.