§ 2.56 p.m.
§ Baroness BURTON of COVENTRYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are aware that the Heathrow Airport Consultative Committee was informed on the 16th July last at a session open to the public that British Airways is holding discussions with its staff about the ending of the coach services from Heathrow to the Victoria Terminal; and whether they will make a statement.
§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTONMy Lords, the Government are aware of what was said to the Heathrow Airport Consultative Committee on 16th July on this matter. The coach service operated by British Airways is a commercial matter 1258 for the airline's board and therefore one in which the Government do not seek to intervene. The number of passengers using the British Airways' coach service between Victoria Terminal and Heathrow continues to fall. British Airways are losing money on the service and have made it clear on a number of occasions that, in view of the necessity to reduce costs in general, they could not contemplate indefinite acceptance of these losses. However, as has been made clear to your Lordships' House on previous occasions, British Airways have so far made no decision to withdraw the coach service.
§ Baroness BURTON of COVENTRYMy Lords, if the Minister does not mind my asking him, is he aware that that is a better Answer than I had anticipated getting in view of our discussions last Friday? Is he aware of the seriousness of the matter and that in the last three months I have had three different Ministers answering three such Questions and that we have not got anywhere on any of them? Travellers are not asking for a subsidised service but a service for which they are perfectly willing to pay. I believe that in the past the Government have not been aware that the answers we have been given have not been true. I do not mean to say the Government do not think they are true, but they have not been correct. To show good faith, may I ask the Minister to give a guarantee that the Government will ask British Airways at least to consider not withdrawing the service until there is something else to take its place?
§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTONMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for the moderation of her supplementary. Her perseverance in this matter has been enormous; three Questions to three Ministers, now a fourth Question to a fourth Minister, have been necessary to deal with her perseverance in the matter, and one Minister has flown to South America, perhaps because he is so frightened of her. Basically, we are in a troublesome area here. Fewer than 7 per cent. of all passengers using Heathrow use the buses, so it is an uneconomic service. The noble Baroness said it was a service for which passengers would be willing to pay. If there are four passengers, it 1259 would cost about £7 on the bus, and I am advised that for four passengers it would not cost more than £15 by taxi. If you have a long air journey ahead of you and that sort of money is involved, then I would suggest that perhaps it is something one might think of. British Airways want to be helpful. If one is planning a journey, there are other means of travel; for instance, Gatwick is served by railway to the door.
§ Baroness BURTON of COVENTRYMy Lords, will the Minister please give some thought to what I have said? Is he aware that we are back again to the problem of people with luggage? He speaks of a fare of £7. Is he aware—I apologise to the House for being personal —that not long ago I took a taxi from Heathrow to Central London, to a point near Marble Arch? I had a good driver, and there was no traffic. The charge on the clock was £10.90, and with a tip the total came to £12. I maintain that that is quite outrageous. Is the Minister aware that some of us in this House, and outside, are trying to find a consortium which would operate a bus service from a central area and which we could make economic? Can we have the Government's assurance that they will do their best to see that the present bus service is not withdrawn, anyway until after our Recess when we can return to the matter once more?
§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTONMy Lords, I have already assured the noble Baroness that the Government have no information from British Airways that they are intending to withdraw the service—which information the Government would have to have. There are the Alder Valley and Green Line services at half-hourly intervals from Heathrow to London. I quite agree that travelling is not much fun for people with luggage, especially old people. Even someone middle aged, like myself, does not find it much fun when travelling having to look after one's wife and one's luggage. This is not an easy problem for any of us. The noble Baroness referred to charges of £10 to £12. I said that four people could travel by taxi for £15. For four people travelling by bus the cost is about £7. I am merely suggesting that double that amount is not a totally impossible 1260 figure when one is undertaking an air journey. The Underground service has proved enormously successful, though I accept that many people, for one reason or another, do not want to use it. However, this is an example of the market process in being. At the moment the market process is favouring the Underground, and this is what we are up against.
§ Baroness TRUMPINGTONMy Lords, I support everything said by the noble Baroness on the other side of the House, and I fear that my noble friend will find that he has a scourge at the rear of him as well as having one in front, because I do not agree with his answer. How are four people, who do not know one another, who may have a number of children and a lot of luggage, and who perhaps may be suffering from bad backs, to get together in order to share one taxi? Frankly, I do not accept my noble friend's answer. Is he aware of the system that operates from Chicago Airport, where a private service runs both north and south of the city, conveying passengers to hotels at each end of the city? I should like to know whether the British Airports Authority has thought of the commercial prospect if the service is given up? I am sure that there are private operators who would run the service, and I should like to know whether this point has been thought of for the future, since a bus service of some kind is very necessary for many people, even though they may not be in the majority?
§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTONMy Lords, I was not aware of the service at Chicago Airport, to which my noble friend has drawn our attention. No doubt the Airports Authority will take note of her point. I have said that there are already two bus services besides the British Airways' bus service. When our Transport Bill is fully operative, operators will be able to obtain licences to run such a service, whereas up until now London Transport has stopped them, whether for right or for wrong reasons I would not know. Life will be made easier for other people wishing to operate bus services when our Transport Bill is fully operative.
§ Lord MONSONMy Lords, given that Heathrow Airport is the main gateway to Britain for visitors from all over the 1261 world, does the noble Lord not agree that this is far too serious a matter to be left to the discretion of British Airways alone? If, for whatever reason, the service cannot be made to pay, would the Government not consider granting a modest subsidy to enable it to continue, as would surely happen in any other Western European country in similar circumstances?
§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTONNo, my Lords. We are absolutely adamant; we not not willing to subsidise this service.
§ Lord WYNNE-JONESMy Lords, will her Majesty's Government pay attention to the fact that a transport service to and from Heathrow is absolutely vital for people who are unable to pay the large taxi fares? Will the Minister bear in mind that at present British Airways runs the service, whereas in other countries similar services are not run by single airlines? Why is this service not run by the Airports Authority? Does the noble Lord realise that at present one can travel by British Airways' bus to only two of the three terminals? One ought to be able to get to all three terminals.
Will the noble Lord also bear in mind that at present it is very difficult to come back from Heathrow by British Airways' bus because tickets are not sold until the bus actually arrives, and since there is no timetable one does not know how long one will have to wait? Will he appreciate—
§ Lord WYNNE-JONESI am still asking a question, my Lords. Will the noble Lord appreciate the absolute, vital necessity of maintaining a proper bus service to and from Heathrow?
§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTONMy Lords, as my noble Leader has muttered to me, we have somewhat had this point before. British Airways has no flights to or from the third terminal referred to, and so in that case it is for the other airlines to provide a bus service. I have said that 93 people out of every 100 travelling do not use the bus service. I 1262 suggest that if the remaining seven are really desperate, they can usually find an alternative way of flying via Gatwick, which has a very good train service. This is a matter for the commercial judgment of British Airways.
§ Lord SOAMESMy Lords, I suggest that your Lordships have had a good hunt after my noble friend, and perhaps we might move on to the next Question.