§ Lord SEGALMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether any closure of beds is likely at Westminster Hospital after publication of the Flowers Report.
§ Lord CULLEN of ASHBOURNEMy Lords, the Flowers Report is concerned with medical schools, not with hospitals. A parallel report by the London Health Planning Consortium does, however, suggest a changed role for Westminster Hospital, involving fewer acute beds. Both reports are at present the subject of wide consultation, and no decisions will be taken until consultation has been completed.
§ Lord SEGALMy Lords, I wish formally to thank the noble Lord for that reply. Is he aware that the contemplated closure of the Westminster medical school is likely to lower the standards of treatment in Westminster Hospital, and is bound adversely to affect the interests of many thousands of patients, who include Members of both Houses of Parliament? May I declare a personal interest in this matter not only as a grateful patient, but also as a former student and graduate of the Westminster medical school.
§ Lord CULLEN of ASHBOURNEMy Lords, the noble Lord told me previously that he is a former graduate of the medical school of this magnificent hospital, to which so many of us are devoted; and the Government are well aware of the anxiety over the hospital. I respect- 1244 fully suggest to the noble Lord that the question he is asking is somewhat premature, because many consultations are now taking place and are about to take place, and no doubt a more satisfactory answer could be given in a few months' time. However, I should say that there is no suggestion that Westminster Hospital should be closed; I should like to make that clear. The noble Lord is right: the Flowers Report has recommended the closure of the Westminster medical school, and the London Health Planning Consortium has proposed a significant reduction in the number of acute beds in the hospital, linking it with St. Thomas's.
§ Baroness MASHAM of ILTONMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the closure of beds would be disastrous also to the nursing school, and is he also aware that Westminster Hospital is a designated demonstration rehabilitation centre?
§ Lord CULLEN of ASHBOURNENo, my Lords; I was not actually aware of those details, but what the noble Baroness has said will be read with interest.
§ Lord PEARTMy Lords, I hope that the noble Lord will appreciate that there is great concern in both Houses in regard to this matter. Westminster Hospital has helped many Members of the other place and many noble Lords. It is a very fine hospital, and I hope that the Government will be very careful about what they do.
§ Lord CULLEN of ASHBOURNEMy Lords, perhaps I should say that initially the Flowers Report is entirely a matter for London University to consider. The university will be receiving comments until the end of May. In parallel with this the LHPC will be receiving comments on its report, also until the end of May. In due course these reports will be looked at by the London Advisory Group, an independent body which is now being set up, and they will be reporting to my right honourable friend, I think around September.
§ Lord REIGATEMy Lord,, is my noble friend aware that, with great respect, his earlier answer does not make very much sense? First, is he aware of the very large sum of money that has been spent on Westminster Hospital in the 1245 course of the last 12 years, bringing it to completion after being started only 40 years ago? Is my noble friend further aware that at least £1 million is now being spent on new operating wards? Does he not agree that this proves that the argument with regard to the decline in population in London is nonsense—because had that argument been so, what would justify the department having spent so many millions of pounds on the hospital, only to scrap it now?
§ Lord CULLEN of ASHBOURNEMy Lords, I think that I am aware of all the points raised by the noble Lord, apart from the assertion that my answer did not make sense.
§ Lord NUGENT of GUILDFORDMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that some of us have regarded the Flowers Report as a notable attempt to see the national perspective for the medical profession and our medical resources, in particular in terms of the tremendous concentration of medical teaching resources in London in relationship to the country as a whole? Is my noble friend aware that, while some of the report's recommendations are very tough, they could be helpful towards trying to see how to use limited expert resources in the best possible way?
§ Lord CULLEN of ASHBOURNEMy Lords, I believe that that is absolutely so.
Lord WINSTANLEYMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that in my capacity as a medical practitioner I have had occasion to send several noble Lords from your Lordships' House to Westminster Hospital for emergency treatment, and the fact that several of those noble Lords are sitting with us in the Chamber today is surely eloquent testimony to the importance of that august institution? With regard to the medical school, from which I benefited greatly in post-graduate study, may I ask the noble Lord whether the Government, in considering the Flowers Report, will carefully bear in mind the view that when it comes to medical schools, bigger is not necessarily better?
§ Lord CULLEN of ASHBOURNEMy Lords, I fully appreciate what the noble Lord says.
§ The Earl of ONSLOWMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that the spina bifida unit at Westminster Hospital is an extremely good one, that people from that spina bifida unit will now have to go to Carshalton, and that there is great concern among parents of spina bifida children at this particular movement?
§ Lord CULLEN of ASHBOURNEMy Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for what he has said.
§ Baroness MASHAM of ILTONMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether he is aware that the Westminster medical school is one of the small medical schools in the country, and that many students choose it because, as the noble Lord, Lord Winstanley, said, small is beautiful and their results are excellent?
§ Lord CULLEN of ASHBOURNEMy Lords, I have also heard that, and the record of success from that school is, I believe, exceptionally high, possibly the highest of all.
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, may I ask the Minister whether it is not the fact that the Flowers Report is not in any way binding on the Government? It would be a mistake to think that what is in the Flowers Report is in fact binding, when it is not.
§ Lord CULLEN of ASHBOURNEMy Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord. I hoped that I had made that clear. As I said, it is entirely a matter for London University to consider the Flowers Report. Eventually the London Advisory Group will be in touch with the London University, and then all the comments will go to my right honourable friend the Secretary of State.
§ Lord SEGALMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that a very considerable saving could be made in other directions, by the merger of some of the smaller colleges of Oxford and Cambridge into some of the larger colleges, and that the sheer folly of this suggestion is paralleled by the absurd proposal to merge the medical school of Westminster into the school of another teaching hospital? Would the noble Lord not agree that the wisest course for everyone concerned 1247 would be to consign the Flowers Report to the same fate as the Annan Report on Broadcasting?
§ Lord ANNANMy Lords, I wonder whether I could assure the noble Lord— Several noble Lords: No!
§ Lord ANNANMy Lords, may I assure the noble Lord—
Several noble Lords: No!
§ Lord ANNANMy Lords, may I ask whether the noble Lord is aware that I would wish to give him an assurance that the report which is under discussion by the House at the moment will be considered very carefully by the University of London? It was a report of recommendations made personally to me as Vice-Chancellor, and I have now asked for the widest consultations throughout the University of London and outside the university so that we can have informed opinions on the merits of its recommendations. Is the noble Lord aware that I would also wish to reassure him that consultations are taking place directly with Westminster medical school, and that at three o'clock this afternoon I shall be at the Westminster medical school with members of the relevant committee, which will be advising the governing body of the university? May I also warn the noble Lord, Lord Cullen—
Several noble Lords: No!
§ Lord ANNANMay I, however, also warn the noble Lord that it is very difficult indeed for the University of London to continue to fund its medical schools at the present rate when many of them are in deficit?
§ Lord CULLEN of ASHBOURNEMy Lords, I am greatly reassured, and I am sure that other noble Lords are, too.
§ Lord REIGATEMy Lords, would my noble friend accept that the issue raised—that of the better allocation of the resources for medicine and teaching in London—would not justify a bad decision, such as that which is put forward?