HL Deb 29 April 1980 vol 408 cc1199-210

6.19 p.m.

Earl FERRERS rose to move, That the draft order laid before the House on 19th March, be approved. The noble Earl said: My Lords, I beg to move that the draft Apple and Pear Development Council Order 1980, a copy of which was laid before the House on 19th March, be approved.

This order is presented for your Lordships' approval in accordance with the requirements of the Industrial Organisation and Development Act 1947. The I reason why it is rather more lengthy than normal for an order is that it is consolidating, with amendments, the Apple and Pear Development Council Order 1966, as it in turn has been amended. The 1966 order first established a development council for the apple and pear growing industry in England and Wales. In addition to consolidating the Apple and Pear Development Council Order of 1966, the draft order proposes three principal changes in the council's arrangements. These concern the number of members of the council, the annual charge which the council imposes on growers, and the functions of the council.

My Lords, the Act of 1947 requires that, three years after a development council I has been set up and then every five years thereafter, the Minister responsible shall consult the council and the organisations which are representative of people who are engaged in business and employment in the industry as to whether the council should continue in being and, if so, whether the development council order should be amended in any respect. My right honourable friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food has accordingly consulted the council itself and the National Farmers' Union as representative of employers. He has also consulted the National Union of Agricultural and Allied Workers and the Transport and General Workers Union, the two trade unions who represent workers in the industry.

Because it is some 13 years since the council was set up, in addition to the consultations which were required by statute, a survey was carried out at the suggestion of the National Farmers' Union which sought the views of individual growers who are paying the council's annual charge. The results, which were announced on 5th February, were a vote of confidence in the future of the council. A clear majority were in favour of the council continuing. There was a good turn out; 82 per cent, of growers voted. The 55 per cent, who wanted the council to continue comprised 65 per cent.—roughly two-thirds—of the area of apples and pears.

In the light of the views which were expressed during the consultations and of the results of the survey, my right honourable friend decided that the council should continue in being and that there should be further consultations about possible amendments to the Apple and Pear Development Council Order. That was in February, and about the same time the report of the Top Fruit Working Group under the chairmanship of my noble friend Lord Selborne, was published. This group had been set up by the apple and pear industry to consider its problems. Their excellent report contained, among many other matters, several important recommendations about the constitution and functions of the Apple and Pear Development Council. This was most timely, and these recommendations were taken into account in the further consultations about what the order might provide, and I should, if I may, like to add my own congratulations to my noble friend for having produced so quickly a report which was not only admirable but which has commanded widespread respect among all those who are involved—and that is not a very easy thing to achieve—and which has succeeded in concentrating the minds of all on the essentials.

My Lords, the first of the principal changes which the draft order seeks to invoke is to reduce the size of the council and therefore the quorum of the council. Although Lord Selborne's group recommended a council of only nine members, it was represented to us that this number would be too small to enable the various interests to be covered adequately. We, therefore, propose that the number of members should be reduced from the present maximum of 21 to 14, of whom eight will represent the interests of growers and two the interests of employees. The 1947 Act requires that these two interests together should be in a majority on the council and this condition will, of course, be met. But it seems to us only reasonable to maintain the growers' present overall majority since they provide the whole of the council's funds. The number of members with special knowledge of marketing and distribution, and the number of independent members, will be reduced from three to two for each group. The minimum quorum for the council has been reduced from the present 13 members to eight members. We think that this streamlined council will make for much greater efficiency in the conduct of the council's business and in decision making.

The second main change is that the maximum rate of the annual charge which the council may impose on growers will be increased from £14.50 to £29 per hectare. There are three points on this increase which I should like to stress. First, the draft order refers to the maximum permitted charge. The actual amount charged is decided annually by the council in the light of their programme of activities, and it is subject to the approval of my right honourable friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. Secondly, the increase will do little more than restore, in real terms, the council's purchasing power to its 1975 levels. Advertising costs, which account for much of the council's expenditure, have been rising faster even than the general rate of inflation. Thirdly, competition from imported French apples has been getting fiercer and the council must have adequate funds if it is to play its part in helping to safeguard the English growers' home market.

The third change to be made by the draft order is to assign to the council four more of the functions which are permitted under Schedule 1 to the Industrial Organisation and Development Act 1947. These will, among other things, enable the council to promote scientific research, to inquire into matters such as production and the development of new varieties, to introduce a premium pack scheme for promoting Class I fruit of specified varieties such as Cox's Orange Pippin apples, and to promote cooperation or co-ordination in the supply of materials, production, marketing and distribution. In case your Lordships may feel that there may be a danger of the council trespassing into fields of other bodies which are engaged in research on production and marketing, and duplicating their work, I hasten to say that the council have indicated that they see the role of the reconstituted council as promoting and supporting but in no way taking over the work of these other bodies.

My Lords, I feel that I would be failing in my duty if I were not to draw your Lordships' attention to Schedule 3 to the order, where you will see listed no fewer than 150 varieties of apples and 101 varieties of pears which will not be covered by this order, because they are varieties which go only for cider making and for perry making, and they seem, in their delicious nomenclature, to cover a wide spectrum of our national life.

On the political side, one may be glad to see that the Green Norman, the Strawberry Norman and the Crummy Norman are not included in the order. Nor is the Bastard Longdon, nor is Iron Sides. Even the Stinking Bishop is not allowed in. The Bloody Bastard, like its colleague the Deadboy, is also excluded. On the financial side, the Old Pound, the Improved Pound and the Loyal Drain remain untouched. On the international field the Upright French (that, to some may seem a happy name) and the Bloody Turk are linked together in common cause as making no impression on the Apple and Pear Development Council.

Those with a rustic turn of mind will be glad to see that the Brown Snout, the Foxwhelp, the Snake Pole and even the Hagloe Crab are left, as it were, in the wilderness as far as the council is concerned. And those with a more racey imagination will be glad to see that the Painted Lady, Merrylegs and even Slack My Girdle are all quite properly left as they are, where they are, in the schedule, uncovered by the order. I do not propose to say any more about this order, other than to recommend it to your Lordships as being a great improvement for the apple and pear industry. I beg to move.

Moved, That the draft order laid before the House on 19th March, be approved—(Earl Ferrers.)

6.28 p.m.

Lord PEART

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Earl on the way in which he has introduced this order. He has been brief, he has introduced some humour, he knows the industry and I would only say as an ex-Minister that I think I had something to do with the setting up of this body. I am glad that the Government have agreed to allow it to continue, because there seems to be a fashion to seek out quangos, and I suppose technically this could be called a quango, although some people might object.

The names which the noble Earl read out I was going to say, but I hope noble Lords on both sides of the House—and indeed others—who are interested will obtain this draft order. I think that the people who have been responsible for it ought to be complimented and indeed the staff in MAFF must have had a lot of say in this. It is an important order because it enables us to try to improve this section of horticulture, and, after all, as the noble Earl has said, we have considerable competition from Europe and especially in the apple industry from the Golden Delicious coming from France. I do not want people to be xenophobic about Golden Delicious, as indeed we should not be about any produce which we import through normal commercial channels. This draft order also means the continuation of the development council, and I should like to congratulate all those who have sat on that council through the years. They have done a remarkable job; they do not get high salaries, or anything like that, but they like their work and they do it very well.

The noble Earl mentioned some of the functions. Perhaps I may quote: Schedule 1. Functions of the Apple and Pear Development Council, 1. Promoting or undertaking scientific research". The schedule continues: Promoting or undertaking inquiry as to materials and equipment and as to methods of production, management and labour utilisation, including the discovery and development of new materials, equipment and methods and of improvements in those already in use … Promoting the production and marketing of standard products". I am glad the noble Earl brought in a reference to the trade unions concerned, particularly the Transport and General Workers and the Agricultural Workers and others. This is a very important schedule and I know it will be well used. Going down the list—I do not want to repeat what has been said by the noble Earl—I see also, Promoting the development of export trade, including promoting or undertaking arrangements for publicity overseas". I think it is important that we should have an export industry, just as other countries export to us. So I congratulate the noble Earl on introducing this, and I know, looking at another Agriculture Minister, that he certainly will give it his blessing, as I do; I think it is for the good of our country.

6.32 p.m.

Lord MACKIE of BENSHIE

My Lords, I, too, should like to welcome the order, which goes some way towards allowing the industry to solve its problems. Certainly they needed the extra powers, and I congratulate the Government on acting so swiftly on the Selborne Report. I do not want to appear ungracious, but really the industry is facing a great many problems and I think the Government must not rely solely on this order and the setting up of the authority for apples and pears; they have got to do a great deal more, I think, to alleviate the unfair competition from the Golden Delicious apple from France. There are a whole lot of things, starting with the grading of the Cox's Orange Pippin at 60 per cent, of the value of the Golden Delicious, which must surely be wrong and grossly unfair. It means that if any fruit goes into intervention it is paid for at 60 per cent, and not 100 per cent. That starts the ball rolling.

Then there is the fact that the French lend money to the tune of £170 per hectare per annum to their growers at a very low rate of interest. It is a very unfair subsidy which we in this country compete against, although we do have the horticultural payments. The French also, I understand, are paying out heavy subsidies for planting and they are also paying out disaster premiums for hail, frost and other natural disasters, all of which puts our growers at great disadvantage. I think the biggest disadvantage probably is the scale of French promotion, which is at the rate of over £2 million per annum. This is a lot of money. As far as I can work it out, the total income of the new body will be £700,000, which is of course a tremendous improvement, but set against the French Government paying a total of over £2 million for promotion in this country it does not appear to be quite adequate. I wonder whether as time goes on the Government will consider lifting the level of levy per hectare on which the new body can apply. I think it is necessary to get on the record the difficulties under which the industry is labouring. I welcome this order, but I urge the Government to try to put right the other iniquities that exist in the Common Market so that the industry may have a chance to compete on a fair basis.

Lord ELWYN-JONES

My Lords, I hope that my noble friend Lord Peart will not think me xenophobic in supporting what the noble Lord, Lord Mackie, has said about the apple industry and in particular about the fate of Cox's Pippins. I once lived in a house next to where the Cox's Pippins were first grown, in Cranford, in the 18th century. I have got a feeling about Cox's Pippins; they are the best apples in the world, of course—and that I know is being xenophobic. I have friends who are in the industry who are deeply worried. I should like to ask the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, if he can tell us what acreage of apple orchards are being ploughed in, and what steps are being taken to protect our industry from, in particular, the Golden Delicious, which receives, as the noble Lord, Lord Mackie, has said, the preferential support and treatment which is denied to our own growers.

I think there is something really significant about maintaining this glorious English growth, the Cox's Pippin. I would feel quite lyrical about it if I were capable of lyricism. It really is part of England and has been part of England for a couple of hundred years, and it is quite shaming that it is being slowly driven into the ground, literally. So I should like to know what steps the Government are taking to protect the position, because it would indeed be a sad day if we were no longer able to enjoy the luxury of a Cox's Orange Pippin.

Viscount AMORY

My Lords, if the noble and learned Lord had gone on a little longer I am sure he would have persuaded us that Cox was a Welshman. I quite agree with him that, Welsh or not, the Cox's Pippin is a delightful apple. The noble Lord, Lord Peart, in a gesture in my direction at one moment said that I would quite agree with what he said. I do remember more than a quarter of a century ago when I was at the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food; we were at that time somewhat concerned at the not too good presentation for sale of so many of our apples and pears. I should only like to put on the record my personal opinion that a good deal of progress has been made since then in this matter; my visits to greengrocers and so on lead me to believe that, on the whole, our apples and pears are much better presented than they were 25 years ago. That is very important when it comes to competition.

6.38 p.m.

Earl FERRERS

My Lords, I am very grateful to your Lordships for having welcomed this order. I would assure the noble Lord, Lord Peart, first of all, that the Apple and Pear Development Council is not a Quango as such, because of course it is not financed by the Government. It is financed wholly by the growers, and it does do an excellent job of work.

I am bound to say that when the noble and learned Lord, Lord Elwyn-Jones, got up I thought he was going to ask me some frantic legal question, and I trembled as I always do when the noble and learned Lord rises. Doubtless my noble friends beside me felt the Bench shaking. He was worried about the Cox's, and I agree with him they are the best apple you can get. If he looks at the prices he will see that they regularly command a higher price than do the Golden Delicious, and that is because the quality is such that they command this additional premium.

The difficulty with our marketing is that so often the good quality stuff on the market can be fouled up by a lot of poorer quality stuff. That is one thing the industry will have to address itself to. Part of the reason is that over the years we have not replaced our orchards in the way we should have done, for a variety of reasons; people have not got the money, and sometimes they do not think the future is bright enough. So very often apples are coming from orchards which are not of the best quality and those orchards are producing apples which are not of the best quality.

I should like to give him what assurance one can that it is certainly this Government's intention to do all that they can to see that the Cox's Orange Pippin, as a variety, does have a future and succeeds. But it will mean reorganising, and it will possibly mean that some people who grow Cox's Orange Pippins at the moment may well find that they will not be able to do so. I would only qualify that by saying that this is part of the reorganisation to which the industry itself must address its mind in order that what goes on the market is well packed, well presented and commands a premium.

I agree with my noble friend Lord Amory that the method of packaging is better than it was, but frankly I think that it ought to be even better still. So often one finds that in these markets the foreign produce which comes in is well packed and well presented and in some cases ours is not the same. The horticultural industry went through this problem some years ago when lettuces and so forth were under attack from foreign countries. They reorganised themselves and now one can find British horticultural produce competing on fair, equal and better terms with foreign imports, and that is the state that the apple and pear industry must get itself into as well.

The noble Lord, Lord Mackie of Benshie, said that the Government would have to do something about the imports of Golden Delicious. That is a common cry and it is an understandable cry.

Lord MACKIE of BENSHIE

My Lords, with respect, what I said was that the Government would have to see, or try to see, that we competed on fair terms. I was not asking for a restriction.

Earl FERRERS

My Lords, I was about to say—if the noble Lord had not been quite so sharp on his feet—that many people say that we must do something about Golden Delicious imports—whether that is restricting them or whether it is ensuring fair competition. All I would say to the noble Lord is that in all that we have discovered and looked into—and we have done a great deal about this—there is no unfair competition between imported Golden Delicious and our own, in so far as we can find no evidence that the French Government are doing anything contrary to the Community rules as such.

I mention this matter because it is a common form of complaint. When the noble Lord says that their apple producers have benefits which ours do not have, and that that is unfair—and he cited the low interest rates that are available—I would only remind him that each country in the Community has its own method of supporting its agriculture and horticulture. We have chosen the method of grant—farm capital grant schemes, horticultural capital grant schemes and the farm and horticulture development schemes. That is the way in which we help and support our industry. It so happens that the French support and help their industries by cheap interest rates.

A common cry among many people is, "How nice it would be if we had cheap interest rates too". However, when one actually looks into the problems and the difficulties, I think one will find that it is not quite as easy as it seems. I believe that the system which we have for supporting our agricultural and horticultural producers is as good for our purposes as would be the system to which the noble Lord, Lord Mackie, referred.

Lord MACKIE of BENSHIE

My Lords, I am sorry to interrupt the Minister, but this is a very important point. Is he satisfied that he has a complete list of the support systems for apple growing in France? There is a strong suspicion on the part of our apple growers that there are a lot of hidden subsidies. The noble Earl says that if we were to compare the two, the comparison would be quite fair—grants as against planting subsidies and low interest rates. If I put down a Question, can he give me a complete list of the supports there are in France?

Earl FERRERS

My Lords, I think the answer is that if the noble Lord puts down a Question I shall answer it. But whether I could give him the answer which he requires is another matter because, of course, all that I can do is to say what the British Government do. I am not in a position to answer for what the French Government, the Dutch Government, or any other Government do; nor would I be in a position necessarily to ferret out (if one may use that word) the kind of points which the noble Lord suggests, which I think are an indication that the French Government are doing something which is not really quite right. We have no indication at all that they are doing anything which is not fair, just or permitted under the EEC rules. They may give various subsidies, but they are perfectly entitled to do that and it would be unreasonable, I think, for the noble Lord to say that because the French, the Dutch or the Germans give a certain subsidy, therefore we should have to match that subsidy pound for pound ourselves. We try to support our industry in the best way that we can and we think that the way in which we do that is the best way for our purposes.

So the answer to the noble Lord is that if he puts down a Question, I cannot guarantee that I can give him the total list of all the subsidies which the French Government produce, because that is not within the competence of our Government. But if he wishes to do that I can only do the best I can.

I am grateful to your Lordships for having welcomed this order and I hope that we shall find, much to the delight of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Elwyn-Jones, that, when the Apple and Pear Development Council becomes reorganised and gets what I can only describe as a sharper cutting edge determined to market and to make the best for British apples, in a few years' time the Cox's will be not only as prolific as they are now but even more frequently seen on the market stalls.

On Question, Motion agreed to.